Dan K

As I was enjoying my first cup of coffee and browsing new car listings earlier this morning, I saw a red '70 Cutlass Conv. newly listed on ebay here in Seattle which looked a lot like one I sold in 2007.

Checked it out, and yep same vin # as my old car. Looks unchanged, short of the stock ralley wheels are gone.

It's advertised to have only 70K miles, but I know it rolled over 100K during my ownership. I have a picture of one of the previous owner's bill of sale showing it had 90K in 1988.

Also, advertised as "been in my family since the mid 70's". I bought the car in Lincoln, Nebraska and drove it all the way to Seattle in 2005. Maybe I have unknown relatives in both Nebraska and Seattle....

I know the lack of honesty of some e-bay sellers is probably getting to be a tired topic here, but this one struck home to me personally and thought I'd vent.... esp. frustrating on e-bay because there is not much you can do....

Item:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-...item43abd40516

Pic my wife took of me in B.F, Wyoming on the drive back from Nebraska attached

MDchanic

Yes, but it's garage kepted, so that makes everything else all right.

Sadly, it will be sold from one mental midget to another one (no offense to midgets intended).

- Eric

droptopron

From his choice of wheels you can tell he's not a big "character" guy.
The guy's lies are stuff he feels aren't documentable and make the car more desirable. He is lying because he thinks he can't be caught.

droptopron

Garage kept but pictured sitting in a car port.

MDchanic

Kepted. Kepted.

Cain't U reed Engish?!?

rocketraider

Easy. On the "ask a question" button, ask some pointed questions that will let him know you know the history of this car as a previous owner. They'll show up in the listing, and you can then see how he dances around them.

You'll have some fun at the very least.

Vader

On ebay, you can choose to list your questions/answers, or not. In this case, I'm sure he'll keep the questions and answers private.

70olds455

Those rims looks terrible, he would be better off putting the original wheels back on and trying to sell it.

GTI_Guru

One thing you could do, if it does strike a personal note with you is to contact Ebay directly.

You said you have proof of ownership, mileage, and the VIN. Go into their support section & send them a note saying you were the previous owner of the car, and that it is being fraudlently represented for sale within their site. You'll probably have to provide them with proof of some kind. i.e. a scanned in registration, etc. for them to take you seriously, but I have had to deal with the Ebay complaint system before, and they are QUICK to respond. If they believe there is a fraudlent listing there by someone, not only may they take the listing down, but the account may be banned, or locked from any further transactions depending on how they decide to react to it.

From my understanding, penalties on misrepresenting the mileage on a vehicle are quite severe depending on the state and possibly even federal regs, so rather than have the new owner try and come back on them for a misrepresented/fraudlent sale, they will most likely pull the auction ASAP to keep their liabilities down to a minimum.

just my 2cents on the matter if you do truly want to get involved in it...

-Jeff

PGH Cutlass

i hate when people sale cars an add money for there rims,music etc..you know the adds that say stuff like 5K but 4k without rims

Jamesbo

Eric,

I believe the correct PC phraseology is "Vertically Challanged."

Lady72nRob71

I would pay the 1000 more to have the original wheels put back on...
White leather. Hmmm - looks like stock vinyl to me.

Lying SOS...

droptopron

Why do you hate that? Sometimes it presents a good opportunity for buyer & seller. Case in point this car. I like the car but abhor those rims.
If the guy took $1K off he could def keep them.

Dan K

Ha, yeah shows the type of seller we have going here

Right. I know from selling a couple cars on e-bay I could choose to add questions and replies to the bottom of my listing or not... and I just assume this guy would not..

Great point Jeff, thanks. I know I gave all the original docs to the guy I sold it to, but I do have a crystal clear JPEG of a Nebraska title dated 12-5-88 showing VIN# and mileage of 90,621. I'm sure I also have a photocopy of a bill of sale at home which should show the mileage when I sold it. I'll package it together and email to ebay complaints, and see what happens.



Looks like the car is listed under two seperate listings, so I'll have to file a complaint on both. Not planning on throwing a bunch of good energy after bad, but that may actually produce some results.

Also, for any of my fellow CO folks who may be interested in this car: It is a great car, but it is no 9/10. It has some notable rust issues from its 35 years in Michigan, Nebraska, and Kansas; which I doubt have been addressed as it looks like the same paint as when I owned it. (Conveniently not documented in the "sorry for so few pictures")....

GTI_Guru

One final thing to keep in mind...

Perhaps the car has changed hands a few times since you sold it. The CURRENT owner may not be aware he's misrepresenting it in any way shape or form. You might send a nicely worded note his way before pulling the trigger on throwing him to the wolves to see how he responds. (if he responds at all) and see what happens. He may be very grateful for the backstory on it, he may have been scammed himself and just passing the same story along on it that he was fed. you never know, but it might be best to tread lightly until you know the full story, or it appears that someone is truly trying to pull a fast one.

-Jeff

Dan K

Thanks, another good point. I saw the car listed on Craigslist a few years back by the guy who purchased from me, can't recall if he stated the mileage or not; but in any event it's probably changed hands at least once since I sold it. Based on this seller stating that the car has "been in the family since the mid 70's", which is an untruth that could only originate from him, my guess is he is the source of the rest of them. But I will drop him a note first....

CQR

Not buying this. He states its been in his family since the 70's. Thats pretty hard to be scammed on.

MDchanic

Big, stupid wheels = Liar until proven otherwise, in my book.

Sorry.

- Eric

Dan K

Eric, shame on you... that's called profiling! (low-profiling??)

MDchanic

If the car's too low, in the slammer they go!

- Eric

Allan R

To Eric:
yer plain mean ya no. sum are not good as you with your fansee tiping. i may not be so good in engish but most enyone who reeds the ad will no whut it meens. sinse when do you have be from smarty pants collage just to sell a car. besides when enyone calls they will no this is the reel deal

Both of us will rot in hell you know? You'd think that there would be some degree of proof reading to give credibility to the ad. (You probably just didn't mention these other 'bloopers' but I saw some humor in them... (with advance due apologies to others who may be offended)

Wondering what brand 'orignal' is. I imagine you would have a real 'gathering' if you had 'rallies'. 'aslo' must be the company they used to match the paint?
'doul' must be a new product line? OMG they have a sunny day broom riding 'witch'? 'Seattle interestingly there is such a word as 'feal' . It is an archaic word that means 'faithful'

Junkman

ebay only cares about the selling commissions. You will have to jump through many hoops before they will take you seriously. I suggest that you just forget about it, because I doubt it will sell with the bad pictures.

citcapp

I just feel bad that this dude live in Washington State. Yep he's a liar

Dave Siltman

I can tell you that without a doubt, mileage discrepency or mileage being mis-represented is a FEDERAL offense, and should not be taken lightly. If a seller chooses to represent a car that is claimed to have a certain mileage, the proof is on the seller to provide supporting documentation. If said documentation isn't available, all bets are off. In some states vehicles over ten years old are sold "Miles Exempt" and must be re-titled as such unless supporting fool-proof documentation is provided. The prices paid for extremely "WELL-DOCUMENTED" low-mile vehicles has always been at a premium is climbing. Some less-than-honest people think they can make a big score by passing off a car as something it is NOT. It is that type of seller that not only tarnishes our hobby, but could also be prosecuted. Personally, I collect low-mile cars and have all the needed documents, signed FEDERAL odometer statements, copies of prior owners and titles, and any other pertinent info. to support the authenticity of each of my cars. There is a reason this type of car IS worth more and will SELL for more----Pedigree, paperwork, whatever you want to call it, is CRUCIAL when spending large sums of money on a collector car. If you smell a rat---RUN-Don't walk away!

Dshelvy

As far as the rims go each is his own, Me personally i have 22"s on my cutlass. The pictures dont look that bad but, he didnt take a photo of the drivers side so that tells me something right there. Dan, where was that rust located at and is it possible it was rebuilt?

Dan K

Well, I sent the guy a message earlier today:

His reply this evening:

And then the auction was cancelled.

True explanation? Who knows. Who cares? All's well that... ends?

Dan K

And, thanks for the various comments... I would probably still be simmering about it and now I have "closure"... my therapist will be so happy

On a different subject, one thing I noticed when I was going through my old stuff on this car was the rear trunklid trim - the stainless band with "OLDSMOBILE" in it - I don't recall seeing this on any other 70 Cutlii...

Was this added off another car, or is it correct and I just have never noticed??

svnt442

That's a 71 thing I believe. I'd guess the trunk lid was changed at some point before you got the car? Just a hunch.

I know my 70 Cutlass S had the trim around the key hole and script on the right corner, but that was about it.

MDchanic

Yeah. Everyone's "selling it for a friend." Somehow that makes lying okay.

Wish I had a friend who would sell stuff for me and actually give me the money afterward.

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

Dan, good email Stern yet polite and to the point. Hopefully he will sell it in a truthful way. Good fake excuse he had... At least it is down now.

crzyjef

Keep a good eye out for it..

he may wait till the "heat is off" or he thinks you are no longer watching and re post the add as he set it up to let his friend sell it when he gets "back in town" especially if it is sold by the same ebay user.

Longhorncutlass

Throughout human history, the main reason people lie is because they think they can get away with it and in many cases, they do. The motivation for lying? Because the liar believes that by lying, it will cover up the negative and result in a better outcome for himself.

GTI_Guru

I find it amazingly interesting that with the number of typos and inaccuracies in the wording in the ad itself that the response back to you was legible and remarkably free of error, even for the "big" words.

The seller is not only misrepresenting the car, he's misrepresenting himself in the ad.

After seeing that, it SCREAMS scam. Keep an eye out for it again (might even check the local CL listings in that area as well) and if it pops up for sale like this again, I'd skip notifying him and go straight to either Ebay complaint department, or a federal/state agency to follow up on it.

Nice job on calling him out on it. Blunt, to the point, & no nonsense. You also did the right thing in leaving him a way out. People backed into a corner do funny things, whereas, if they are given a choice on how to remedy the situation, they generally take the available exit quietly.

Did you happen to include a scan of YOUR documentation when you contacted him perchance? Just curious if you only verbally challenged him on it, or pulled your trump card out from the start.

-Jeff

Allan R

That trim is for the lower line f85 and Cutlass models. It would not be on a Cutlass S or Cutlass Supreme. It could be the deck off a Cutlass sedan - they also fit the CS. But the reveal trim wasn't part of that package.

Dan K

Thanks. No, I did not send him any docs; and I was very surprised he cancelled the listing. Turns out all I really had ironclad on mileage was a JPEG of a previous 1988 title.

My file at home just had a Washington State report of sale (which does not indicate mileage, thought it did); a Mapquest map from Lincoln, NE to Seattle, WA; a Napa receipt for a spare fan belt; a Wal-Mart receipt for a spare tire - both from Nebraska; and a notepad outlining our MPG on the drive back (15.5 MPG = low; 18.5 high). Luckily, no receipts from our stop in Jackpot, Nevada...

In contrast, the file for my current 9 MPG 455 Cutlass is about 2" thick... at about $6K per inch - why did I sell that car again???

Is it a Scam? Not so sure about that, I think it is his car (not his friends) and he is trying to sell it... but embellishing / lying in his ad unnecessarily. As Junkman points out, bad pics + bad descriptions on ebay generally equal no sale so he's just hurting himself

Which is what bugs me the most - its a desirable car, factory Matador red convert with a nice white interior; overall in stock condition which is getting rarer and rarer; some rust issues but not a deal breaker, numbers matching car that (at least used to) run + drive great; choice of super-dope 22's for the new school or original ralleys for the old school , so why lie?

Emphasize the positive, disclose the negative, and some car addict like many of us (who happens to have $10K or access to $10K burning a hole in his pocket - timing is everything) will buy it... easy... with no games. The person who is best at deluding a car guy is usually the car guy himself (well, that may just be me)....

If it shows up on ebay again, it will show up on one of my home page searches (along with any 1969,69,1970,70,1971,71,1972,72,cutlass,442,olds,o ldsmobile,conv,convert,convertible,convertable... you get the idea) on Craigslist within 1000 miles of me.....

I'm still stumped on the trunk trim - svnt445 thinks it might be a '71, which may be right, but my old 71 cutlass had individual letters across the trunk... any other ideas??

Dan K

Thanks. Guess I mostly see Supremes these days.

Allan R

Something about it was bugging me so I looked it up in the Dealers Showroom ordering guide.
That stainless brushed plate with the Oldsmobile embossed into appears to be for the base Cutlass 3287 Coupe only. Its called a 'Trunk-Lid-Edge Molding' and does NOT have the other trim parts seen in your photo.

This means that someone would have added it to the CS as a personal touch because that trim was never offered on any CS. The standard CS trim was bright deck reveal and the O-L-D-S-M-O-B-I-L-E block lettering. There was no other script or emblems put on the rear deck of CS.

The f85 got the 'Oldsmobile' script on the RS of the deck, a Trunk-Lid Rocket Emblem and Rear - Window molding only. No other bright parts.

Dan K

Thanks for the research. That why I haven't seen much of it. It's kind of a cool molding; I've often wished my '70 said "OLDSMOBILE" somewhere obvious on it like that trim... maybe it would cut down on the "Is that a Chevelle?" comments (and my reflexive puke in mouth, swallow, "No, its an OLDS!", pop a Tums).....

Allan R

aww, next time someone asks if its a Chevelle? Just nod and say yes. They'll probably say 'Doesn't look like any Chevelle I've ever seen'. Then you can double whammy them back with "yeah, that's because it was build by the Oldsmobile section of Chevrolet" Bet they spin on a dime and walk away....You won't need to gag or pop pills - you'll be too busy laughing