jensenracing77

Looking for the correct water pump casting number for a 1970 Cutlass with C60 (A/C). I must be over looking it in the assembly manual. I know I need a 5.57 inch pump.

BlackGold

The correct casting number is 404847. Note that this is the casting number and not necessarily the finished part number. I've heard that there are two different size impellers. It's possible they assembled the pumps with one casting but two different impellers to create two different finished part numbers. I don't know.

davebw31

There are three possible casting numbers and 404847 is the most used one during 70' model run. There is one that was a left over from 69 and another prior to strike. Always look at the impeller, it should be cast iron type and almost fill the housing. If I remember it should be about 1/4" from the housing edge. The better ones have tapered fins. The fins are taller towards the center and taper down a little toward the outside edge of the impeller. Engineering said they produced a limited number of those for W cars because they had less cavitation at high rpm s. I had one in my 68' ram rod race car. Don't have the other two casting numbers readily available right now. Maybe Octania can chime in, as he knows the numbers!


BTW: If the part was changed or issued a new or corrected engineering drawing than the casting or part number would change. This always is done to track the part as far as warranty, any production problems, or quality issues.

davebw31

To add: when I was restoring complete cars I dealt with CARQUEST and they would ordered 70' V8 with HD cooling or A/C option wand I would get the 404847 pump about 80% of the time. If I didn't they would return it and order again till I got one. One I got had the impeller replaced with a small 5 blade steel zinc impeller!

dnmfranco

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...ps&_sacat=6000


there is this on ebay 150.00 free shipping

davebw31

That pump was built July 1, either in 69' or 70'. My guess is 70' as a GMPD replaced part.

jensenracing77

This is a Cutlass with a 350. I thought the 404847 was only on the some of the 455 engines.

RocketDevo

The correct water pump casting number for the 1970 350CI with AC is 400296. It is 5.57 IN. in height. It is also correct for the 455CI with AC. but the 404584 was a little more prevalent in the 455 application. Incidentally the 404847 is the correct water pump for W31 and W30 applications in 1970. It has the same height 5.57 as the AC water pumps so it works, but for number correctness the 404847 is the pump you want for "W" cars. Hope this helps.

jensenracing77

From what I see the 400296 is for 69? I just can't understand much of the 70 year. I know the 404847 was on more than W cars. I seen them on Toronados and BBO Vistas with A/C.

RocketDevo

Hey Eric, my info shows the 400296 water pump correct for 68-70 with the 350CI and AC. The 404847 water pump I have seen used on multiple applications. The height of the water pump makes it correct for any AC car. That height used with a fan shroud gave optimal cooling properties, in connection with lining up the pulleys. The 404847 is a heavy duty cooling water pump meant for AC cars but the 70 W30 got the same application so that is why it is the correct water pump. It does need to be used with the "KM" pulley though.

BlackGold

RocketDevo, where are you getting your information from? Please cite the reference.

The 1970 Engine Assembly Manual shows that all B&C bodies, all A-bodies with A/C, and all W-30 and W-31s got the exact same water pump, regardless of whether the had a 350 or 455.

Based on the manual, I can't tell you the casting or part number of that water pump, because during engine assembly the water pump was installed already attached to the front cover as a shop assembly. But the Engine Assembly Manual does list the exact same shop assembly for all those applications, and it couldn't be the same shop assembly without also containing the exact same sub-components. Based on personal experience, the original casting I've seen on A/C cars and W-cars is 404847.

RocketDevo

My information is from the Oldsmobile numbers swap meet guide. The engine assembly manual has unfortunately known to be wrong. I did not list all applications for the 400296 as the original poster was asking a specific question. The guide shows that the 400296 is correct for all 350 and 455 engines in 1970 with AC. The same water pump was not used in all those applications you state the assembly manual says. The 404847 has the same height as the 400296. They both work physically, as they are the same 5.57IN height. But if you had a W30 or W31 it would have came with the 404847 as it was considered the heavy duty water pump. The other casting number water pump in 1970 is 404584 and was used on 455CI without AC.

Mr Shifty Sidney

What does the parts catalog show? Going from memory I was thinking the same as BlackGold.
I understand that parts of the engine assembly manual may be wrong, but I would not put all my trust in the Olds swap meet numbers guide either. In cases like this I look at multiple factory Oldsmobile sources for an answer.

Don W

RocketDevo

Hey Don, I am with you there. I do have multiple sources I can look at. I also have been trying to ascertain what is correct for many parts, through car shows, wrecking yards, my cars and fellow Olds aficionados. The 400296 water pump, from the info I have, and what I know is correct, for what the original poster was asking. I mention the 404847 because others brought it up and was hoping to help clarify things. The swap meet guide I have actually does not confirm that the 404847 is verified in any GM document at the time of its printing. Its a little old now, so I am using other information to corroborate what application it is for.

BlackGold

Again, no matter what document you're looking at, be careful not to confuse casting number with part number. One casting can become several different part numbers.


I guess I'm ignorant. I have no idea what this "Oldsmobile numbers swap meet guide" is and why it's considered more accurate than the original factory engineering drawings. But I won't press my point; as I said, the Engine Assembly Manual calls out a shop assembly, not an exact water pump part number (and certainly not a casting number) and therefore is not the best resource to answer this question.

Mr Shifty Sidney

Brian,
My engine assembly manual is missing a few pages. Something like 39-50??? Is yours missing also? I know they are different but, the 71 engine assembly manual has the water pumps listed for each application.

Don W

fizzy55

sorry for hijacking jensen's thread, but can someone tell me the water pump casting number for a 69 hurst olds with ac? thanks

Boiler_81

You should start your own thread, you will get more responses.

jensenracing77

Looks like the guy I am looking into this for is wanting a 400296 casting pump. Anyone have one? I may post in the wanted section.

Octania

RocketDevo
My information is from the Oldsmobile numbers swap meet guide. The engine assembly manual has unfortunately known to be wrong.
==================
Heh, that's a twist
I would order accuracy from best to worst as:
Factory Asm. Manual
Factory PN Manual
442 by the Numbers [Supercars Unltd.] / Mondello Tech. Man.
Some swap meet guide
The interwebs/ FAQ files of yore

FOR EXAMPLE, there is no such thing as a "400296" casting. How do I know this? Well, I can't state FER SURE much like the SMW403, but one has never been seen in captivity. Now, one can misread the digits. And there MAY be as much variation as 400269 and 400268 castings, but 400296, NO. Thus says years of empirical evidence. I have the database with Every Pump Known to Man. If it were known to exist, it would be in there.


400268 Water Pump, Engine Cooling. Casting ID "O" 400268 [or (none)]
CN may be (mis)read as 400268 400269 400289 &c.
Length 5.6", Inlet 2.0" dia., Impeller 4.8" dia. may be Stamped
RARE COMBINATION of Medium Length and LARGE Inlet
Apps: 68-69 w/ AC or HDC or W30, W32, or H/O pkg,
PULLEY SETS: 3g= KC/KF/KH; yyy;


"Looks like the guy I am looking into this for is wanting a 400296 casting pump. Anyone have one? I may post in the wanted section. "
==============
You will want to seek a 400268 and/or 400269 casting. The '296 does not exist. Despite the numerous uses of that combination above. Dyslexia, perhaps? We should nip this error right away. Manually correct your "swap meet" guide. If anyone can produce a genuine photo of a 400296 casting # I would be very interested. Of course anyone can MAKE such a photo, and I can MAKE such a casting. I was interested in a real factory item with that configuration.

Any of y'all can interchangeably use the X-404847 or the O-400269 or O-400268 if you prefer. Both castings have the large inlet and proper 5.6" length.

If you want the X casting then go buy the one on ePay right now. $150 seems like a good price on a RARE part with the right casting ID and it's a factory casting to boot. Of take your chances at CARQUEST.

These 5.6" water pumps generally use the KM or KA water pump 2-groove pulley, or the KC/KF 3-groove crank and WP pulleys. Make sure you have pulleys on hand to suit. I guess the KM is readily available repro now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cutlass-442-...7e7d95&vxp=mtr



"sorry for hijacking jensen's thread, but can someone tell me the water pump casting number for a 69 hurst olds with ac? thanks "
============================================
That'd be the 400xxx unit, commonly read as 400268 or 400269. They are a little hard to find now.
You can USE the X casting per ebay link above, but for a '69 H/O you may wish to be more particular and wait for the 400268 to appear. Or, I can make any pump you want into a replica 400268 or any number you like. How about a nice aluminum one with the correct "O" and "400269" or "400268" on there?

RocketDevo

BlackGold I agree with you, I take original factory info as gospel, but as I mention earlier I have seen what administration put in motion did not always play out in production. I know GM went by a part number on many items that had nothing to do with the casting number. I am not just using the swap meet guide as the premier source of accuracy. I am using, as mention earlier multiple sources including years of scouring wrecking yards etc. to determine what is correct. Octania I have a 400296 in my possession and will upload a photo. I know of a 1970 Vista with AC in a wrecking yard that also sports the 400296 water pump. I am aware of difficulties in reading the numbers. The 1971 407586 water pump is absurd the "8" is not a "3". A previous poster submitted that all 350 and 455 with AC including the W cars had the same water pump. If that was the case there would only be a need for 2 types of water pumps to cover the model year. There are more than just 2 casting numbers for the 1970 model year. I have more water pumps than I know what to do with and the 400296 is not a easy pump to come by. GM in its wisdom did not generalize part numbers. A 1970 3 core rad for Chevrolet is the same rad for Olds tank wise but the rad tag will be different. I submit that is the same for water pumps. They did not offer the same casting number for so many different applications. A photo of the 400296 is forthcoming. For what its worth it, Curt Anderson and others supplied the info compiled for the guide. Thanks

Octania

"A photo of the 400296 is forthcoming."
=========================
Corrections are always welcome
It is quite possible that in 30+ years of collecting parts in Lansing and California, and collecting information and photos, that something escaped my attention. Still looking for photo #1 of the SMW403 though. Kind of funny though that a Google search of the internet finds NOT ONE photo of this elusive beast. But, last year, on the verge of calling the 7028253 carb another Oldsmo-Yeti voila' a guy shows up with photos of one.

Maybe you can lend me that pump briefly. I can make a deposit it you feel it is uber-valuable.

Please be so kind as to verify and if possible write on the part before photos are taken, or in a note in the photo: the inlet OD, pump length, and if possible the volute cavity ID and the OD of the impeller. Whether impeller is cast or stamped is nice to know. Oh and the main ID cue on the RH outlet boss which we assume is "O" for this casting number.

jensenracing77

I guess the guy don't know what he needs and I am still not sure myself. I will just tell him I can't help.

BlackGold

You're not missing pages 39-50. Note how pages through 38 are drawing number 404414. Then the small block parts list is a new drawing number: 405925, and the big block parts list is 405926. They put a big gap in the page numbers before the parts lists so that they could insert more pages if needed (most likely for other model years).

Depending on where and when you got your 1970 Engine Assembly Manual, you might be missing page 10 and pages 76-78.

The chart in the 1971 Engine Assembly Manual give additional insight into how the same casting might receive different impeller or bearing to create a different part number.

Octania

"The chart in the 1971 Engine Assembly Manual give additional insight into how the same casting might receive different impeller or bearing to create a different part number."
==========================
That is good to know
But... here it is years after Oldsmobile was dissolved. The chance of finding a given PART number, even if it's in "a GM box" [could have been replaced with ???].... is right about zero.

Therefore MAINLY what we can go by is the visible casting number. This is fairly easy to get right... 400268 vs '269 vs '296 notwithstanding.

Now if someone would like to explain in more detail how to tell Part # blah blah from PN etc. even though they are built on the same casting number.... I am all ears and willing to add info and photos to the databse which I share for free.

PS not that I don't believe it, but how does one ascertain that their water pump is cavitating [or not] at elevated RPM's? When you autopsy it? Reynold's Number calculations? Sounds funny?

RocketDevo

I have some photo's to upload, to help with matching GM part numbers with casting numbers. I have 2 water pumps I can help. Octania hope this helps with you database. The super succession numbers show that other pumps exists but is open to speculation what the casting numbers may be. I have included a photo of what appears to be a 400269 or 289? I did some digging of my water pumps but with 3 shipping containers full, I have not found them all. I do however at this point have to concede that I may have Dyslexia, bad eyesight or bad memory on the 400296, as the pictured 400269/289 may be the culprit. I have only endeavoured to help and pass what I know to further the Oldsmobile community. I will need to get the pump off that Vista I previously mention, if for no other reason than my sanity... I have also shown photo's of the swap meet guide.

RocketDevo

More Photos.

RocketDevo

Last 3 photos. Thanks

Octania

Nice. I will add what I can to the database.

Still back to 400296 is not seen in captivity. The PN misread or factory typo happens.

no worries.

Octania

box says PN 231066
other folks have asserted that this PN was on the box for an "X" water pump [there is only one "X" casting as far as I know, and made into one PN].

Once the box has been opened, the item inside may have been replaced with ANYTHING. That box and PN may or may not be for a #2 WP.

The "2" casting is 5.1" x 1.8" crucial figures, whereas the "X" WP is 5.6" x 2.0" - very different items.

I am adding the photos to the collection and going over the WP info... Thanks!

RocketDevo

Whereas it is possible with an open box, a pump could have been switched out with anything. The two NOS pumps in the previous photo's are indeed NOS. The boxes also speak for themselves. I believe it is highly un-likely that a NOS pump was placed into a different original box. That said, the 231066 is the earlier of 2 numbers (231461) for the 1971-1972 OAI Perf. axle application. I have and had many of the 408329 water pumps and they all have the number "2" on them. I am not sure why anyone thinks it should have the "X" on it. The only pump that has this is the 1970 404847. On the 1971-72 water pumps they used numbers "1-3". It is not logical they would use an "X" also on the 408329 pump when clearly the number "2" is used. Ergo, since the 231066 is for the 1971-1972 model year application, I do not believe there is an "X" on any of the 408329 pumps.
I have included 3 photo's, 2 for the 71-72 model years, the 408329 already posted, and one of the 404584 which is for the 1970 model year. I figure the more photo's out there the better everyone can ascertain.
Thanks

Mr Shifty Sidney

Octania

Here is the information from the 71 engine assembly manual. It show the composition of the different pumps for that year.

Don W

Mr Shifty Sidney

Here is an odd one I seen on ebay in 2013.

Don W

Octania

Huh
I hope a numbers nut bought that
"X" on 408329 casting looks like a factory "typo" in iron, aka casting snafu to me.
I saved that photo
I have also seen Intakes with "incorrect" letter "figure" as the factory lit called the WP main ID... and I have or had a factory typo water pump with one digit missing, and a pulley with an extra "1" in the stamped-in PN.

Now a STAMP you could see how the guy could inadvertently put in three 1's and not catch it for a while, but damn they made CASTINGS wrong and went ahead and used 'em? OK.

Thanks for sharing that, Shifty. Never say Never, eh? Shtuff happens.

BlackGold

OK, I spent WAY too much time researching water pumps yesterday. I'm not going to type everything I learned, but I'll try to summarize. My sources are the 1970 Engine Assembly Manual, 1971 Engine Assembly Manual, April 1976 edition of the Oldsmobile Chassis and Body Parts Catalog, Mondello Tech Reference Manual (1996), and Supercars Unlimited "442 By The Numbers" (1991, 1999).

1/ The info is consistent in stating that there are clear dividing lines between 70, and 71/72. If nothing else, this would be due to the change in inlet size for '71. The Parts Catalog does give shared part numbers for 68/69 and 70 (230899 (without A/C) and 230900 (with A/C)). However, I suspect this was likely due to parts-counter consolidation and this does not indicate that the same casting number was used by the factory in both 69 and 70. In fact, both the Supercars and Mondello charts list different casting numbers for 68/69 and 70. Also of note is that the 230xxx part numbers included the gasket.

2/ I think we can all agree that the 400296 mentioned by RocketDevo is a typo and is in fact 400269. I see no indication that 400269 was used in any years other than 68/69. It was used for cars with A/C, W-30/31, or Hurst.

3/ I have in my possession two of the 404847 pumps. One I purchased at a swap meet, was rebuilt and claimed by the seller as "being correct for a 1970 W-30." The other I purchased off eBay; it had been removed from a 1970 350 with A/C and still has its gold paint. If the engine had been a W-31, I'm certain the seller would've said so (and it would've sold for much more). This is consistent with my earlier post stating that 350 and 455 used the same pump. This is consistent with what I see in the literature (and also applies to 68/69 and 71/72).

4/ I feel the best summary of casting codes is in the Supercars book (Mondello's chart agrees with it). For the 1970 year, only two casting numbers are listed:
404584 was used for all engines without A/C or W-30/31.
404847 was used for all engines with A/C or W-30/31.

5/ Finally, I think it important to remember that the water pump is one of the most often replaced items on a car. Most of all but the lowest mileage cars will have had it replaced at least once in their life, and that "new" pump will be on the engine long enough to look as old as the car. Also, there's a good chance that the "new" pump is in fact remanufactured -- and might not even have the right casting number. So with the exception of an extremely unmolested car, I'm going to trust the literature more than anything I find in junk yards.


Note in 3/ above that my own experience can be used to answer the original poster's question: his '70 350 with A/C would not be incorrect with a 404847 casting, even if it is possible that older castings were also used in '70.

davebw31

I agree with BlackGold to some degree. The info I have (written in long hand on a piece of paper) shows four (4) possible 70' casting numbers. The 404847 mentioned above and three others. I know this is not "proof", but I would not have written this down unless is was important. My note stated that the three were HD cooling and Non/AC. Remember the strike during Nov-Dec-Jan and the fact that salaried guys were assembling cars during this strike and were robbing GMAPD warehouses for parts and anywhere else they could get parts. Most sections had salaried employees building parts, castings, etc. Those guys were trying not to get laid off and build some cars to send to dealers and sell them. Even after strike ended in Jan 19, 1970 their was still a shortage of parts to build cars. I remember seeing a 4 dr. Cutlass with a 442 rear bumper. I happened to be parked next to him and asked him did he know that. His car was rear ended in an accident and there were no std. bumpers available.

BlackGold

I just looked back through the pictures people have posted in this thread. Just so we're all on the same page, any box with a part number starting with "231" is a '71/72 pump, and any casting starting with "408" or "407" is a '71/72 pump.

BlackGold

Dave, wasn't the big GM/UAW strike in November/December of 1970, meaning it interrupted the 1971 model year?