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This is a matter of how you define it. With the W-41 being an option or as a model? With the W-41 being an option and not a model then there are many cars more rare. My 4 speed 62 Jetfire has it beat by one, 203 of them made. 69 H/O convertible had 2 made. 66 W-30 I do not remember but I believe it is in the ballpark of 57 maybe? Under 100 for sure.
This is a matter of how you define it. With the W-41 being an option or as a model? With the W-41 being an option and not a model then there are many cars more rare. My 4 speed 62 Jetfire has it beat by one, 203 of them made. 69 H/O convertible had 2 made. 66 W-30 I do not remember but I believe it is in the ballpark of 57 maybe? Under 100 for sure.
Ok, then I guess if I should change that to one of the rarest cars ever built then by GM then.
Back in the 30' & 40's there were several Oldsmobile models with production numbers of 200 or less... But that doesn't make the W41 any less of a rare find, and does reflect the fact there is a home for vehicles of this rarity...
Back in the 30' & 40's there were several Oldsmobile models with production numbers of 200 or less... But that doesn't make the W41 any less of a rare find, and does reflect the fact there is a home for vehicles of this rarity...
I for sure was not meaning to take anything from the W-41. Many people do not take them serious and that is what makes me like them all the more. The funniest thing is watching some of the G body guys bash these cars. Other than the Buick GN, the G body cars don't stand a chance against a W-41.
I apologize if I started something that could be seen as bashing your car Quad4. I think the W41 you found is definitely cool. It was one of a few sporty cars Oldsmobile developed when I was young (the only other one I can think of is the supercharged 3.8L in the Regency or LSS). Definitely post pics and keep us posted in your resurrection of this classic (26 years old now).
Back in the 30' & 40's there were several Oldsmobile models with production numbers of 200 or less... But that doesn't make the W41 any less of a rare find, and does reflect the fact there is a home for vehicles of this rarity...
It certainly didn't stop there; have a look at the production numbers in the back of Setting The Pace; there are several '90s models of which only a hand full were built.
This is a matter of how you define it. With the W-41 being an option or as a model? With the W-41 being an option and not a model then there are many cars more rare.
Don't know how you could define it as a model when it isn't.
If you define rarity by option, number of options or combination of options there are thousands of one of ones out there.
Don't know how you could define it as a model when it isn't.
If you define rarity by option, number of options or combination of options there are thousands of one of ones out there.
That is what I was meaning. The W-41 is an option just like a W-30 but also just an option like a 4 speed. Just where do you want to brake it down? For sure the W-41 is a rare car at 204. At least all 204 were manual transmission.
Just a little useless information about the W-41, My dad made several calls and even the local dealer made several calls trying to get one made with an automatic transmission. We later got a call with a response. They said they simply did not have an automatic transmission for the engine family capable of holding the power of the HO or W-41 Quad 4 engine and building a special one was never something they would even consider.
I do appreciate all of the response this post has gotten. At one point I did feel as though I was being bashed a bit, but I realize it isn't bashing, it isn't the type of car you are used to. These cars aren't 60's or early 70's "muscle cars", they aren't body on frame behemoths, they aren't growling V8's with gobs of torque at 2000 rpm's. Oldsmobile was famous for all of that. The infamous Olds 307, a motor that deservedly etched itself into history. The 403, so good it was shared across brands and used as the base blueprint for many race engines for decades. The 455 Rocket, a marvel of engineering and etched into Americana, it could pass everything but a gas station. And yes, the Quad 4, every bit as much Oldsmobile as any of the above mentioned engines. It was a HUGE step forward for GM, designed by Olds engineers. Over 1 horsepower per cubic inch (1.1 hp base, 1.4 hp in W41 form), naturally aspirated, so efficient that it deleted the EGR valve, smog pump, pcv, (it even passed California emission tests without them!!) and laid the path for the Northstar family of engines and todays Ecotec line. Some of those Ecotec engines are pushing 200 horsepower naturally aspirated and 300 turbocharged. They turbocharged the Quad 4 and put it in a vehicle called the Oldsmobile Aerotech. There were 2 different engines and 2 different Aerotechs. The Aerotech came in "long tail" and "short tail" versions, the Quad 4 came in 900 hp single turbo and 1000 hp twin turbo versions. AJ Foyt drove the car on the Bonneville Salt Flats in 1987, Foyt broke the old closed course mark, held by a Mercedes-Benz streamliner since 1979, with a speed of 257.123 miles per hour in a "short-tail" Aerotech. And while he was at it, erased the 2-liter class world flying-mile record, set by Phil Hill in an MG streamliner in 1959, with a two-way average of 267.399 in a "long-tail" car; on one leg of the run, he was timed at 278.357 mph in the Aerotech. I was 18 when that happened and that's when the Quad 4 caught my attention. The Quad 442 is a totally different car than the V8 rear wheel driven cars, I get that. 4 cylinders, 4 valves per cylinder, 2 camshafts instead of 4 barrels, 4 speed, 2 exhaust pipes. It isn't old school, but it is still an Oldsmobile. I love an old 3 ton Ninety-Eight land yacht, Delta 88, Cutlass Supreme, Hurst-Olds or an F85. I see the beauty in these cars. I hope you can see the beauty in my car too. I appreciate all of the positivity received from the majority of you, and hope those that don't see this car in the same light I do can appreciate my enthusiasm for this piece of Oldsmobile history.
Last edited by MyQuad4; May 26th, 2017 at 10:59 PM.
MyQuad4 - A very well written and informative history of the Quad-4 and the other Oldsmobile engines. It was a very well engineered engine, which supposedly was conceived from the 'experimental' dual overhead cam 455 engine that just missed being put into production.
It was unfortunately that Oldsmobile could not get authorization from GM to design a different body for the Quad-4, even if on the same platform. I must admit that at the time I could not get myself to buy one because of the body design - in a similar way it was not unlike the ill-proportioned 78-79 Cutlass fastback model.
Though, it was fortunate that Oldsmobile was able to still have it's own distinct engine, along with the later Aurora V8 - which gave Oldsmobile the distinction of being the first manufacturer to pace and win the Indianapolis 500.
One engine you overlooked in your message was the Olds 350, which in my opinion, was the best overall out of all the GM 350 engines. A very potential and reliable engine.
Last edited by anthonyP; May 26th, 2017 at 09:16 PM.
Are you looking to have it finished in 1 year, 2 years or 5? What's going to be the most challenging part? I like this car, but to be honest before you posted this I never knew these existed. We had a new Grand Am with a Quad 4, but it was a later model... 1999 I believe.
Are you looking to have it finished in 1 year, 2 years or 5? What's going to be the most challenging part? I like this car, but to be honest before you posted this I never knew these existed. We had a new Grand Am with a Quad 4, but it was a later model... 1999 I believe.
If the W-41 was anything like the 97 Grand Am GT w/5 speed I once
owned...That thing was a blast to drive. I will keep my eye out for
one of the Oldsmobiles for sure.
I do appreciate all of the response this post has gotten. At one point I did feel as though I was being bashed a bit, but I realize it isn't bashing, it isn't the type of car you are used to.
You're right and it was well written. I don't think you have to defend the cool factor or even debate its muscle car status. 204 cars built? C'a mon, how cool is that?
I've always wondered why we don't see more of these cars at the National Meets. I know where there's a W-41 with seventeen miles on it; it was too pricey or I'd have bought it.
More trivia;
Total N body production for '91 was 75,414
There were four lines; Calais (or NM base model) "S" (or NF), "SL" (or NT) and "I" series (or NK).
The W40/41 cars were only built on the NF27 or Calais "S" 2 door body.
Total NF27 production was 6906.
There were 1364 W40 (Quad 442) cars built.
W41 cars made up just .3% of total N body production.
The LGO high output Quad Four was exclusive to NF27 models with W40/41, and NK models.
The rear spoiler was also exclusive to NF27 and NK models.
The NF line had three option groups, 1SA (base car, no options), 1SB (some options), and 1SC ([almost]all options).
286 1SA NF27 cars were built (my kind of W41!).
There were only 78 NF27 cars built with the Iron Duke and a five speed.
There were only 18 "S" 4 door cars (NF69) built with the Iron Duke and a five speed (MM5).
126 NF69 cars came with FE-3 suspension.
There is a lot of talk about C60 or air conditioning on these cars. While there was no A/C delete on any N body model, several came without C60. I wrote up a bunch about this on Quadfourforums but I can’t find it now. Anyway, of the base 56,724 NM models built, 1816 were built without C60. Of all NF cars built, only the 1SA cars came without A/C. All other N body models came standard with A/C. On the NF27 (which included the Quad 442), all the 286 1SA cars came without C60. That’s as far as my data goes; I’ve no way of knowing how many ’91 W cars were built with 1SA (without C60).
.
Last edited by Rocketguy; May 27th, 2017 at 07:55 AM.
Reason: Too Much Information
Okay, I have been holding this back since I went to the yard and got the car, waiting until the time was right to tell you all. They aren't quite ready yet at the yard so I won't reveal their information just yet, but BOLO! When I was there they had a crew at a farm clearing out a horde of OVER 300 CLASSIC CARS from the 60's and early 70's! Pontiac's, Oldsmobile's, Chevrolet's, Mopar's, Ford's, all the good ones (and Ford) are there. A lot of them were too rusted to save but there were salvageable vehicles there. I will tell more when I know more.
Congrats on the W41 yard find! I've got lots of fondness for the Quad 4 cars, two different friends had Quad-4 Calais back in the day, one w/ an AT and the other w/ an MT. Both were the fastest 4-cylinders I ever rode in. My MIL at the time had a Grand-Am w/ a Quad 4 that was very satisfying to drive. When my first buddy got his (w/ the AT), I figured I had him covered in my '68 Cutlass, so we challenged each other to a few stoplight races on the way home from a round of golf. We gave up after 3 tries, which were all neck-and neck up to ~90 MPH, whoever got the jump at the start kept a nose up to the end. I was impressed, and always said that if I stumbled across a W41 for sale I'd snag it (never did.....seen a few on the roads though).
As for GM rarity, its hard not to mention the 8 '69 Trans Am convertibles, or Pete Estes' 1-off '68 Z28 'vert (although hardly fair being a special order for a GM exec). There were also only 2 '98 WS6 Formula convertibles built (although, again, these were special order for a dealer as Formulas were not available to the general public w/ a 'vert top that year). Regardless, any car that has production numbers in 3 digits is a rare find. Heck, I considered my '76 455-4sp T/A to be rare (and they were the rarest drivetrain combo that year), but over 7000 of those were built.
Okay, I have been holding this back since I went to the yard and got the car, waiting until the time was right to tell you all. They aren't quite ready yet at the yard so I won't reveal their information just yet, but BOLO! When I was there they had a crew at a farm clearing out a horde of OVER 300 CLASSIC CARS from the 60's and early 70's! Pontiac's, Oldsmobile's, Chevrolet's, Mopar's, Ford's, all the good ones (and Ford) are there. A lot of them were too rusted to save but there were salvageable vehicles there. I will tell more when I know more.
Well, after heming and hawing, twiddling my thumbs, and several "discussions" with my wife I brought her home. The good, the wheels roll and turn, the transmission appears to be in excellent working order, and as rough as she looked inside, she isn't as bad as I thought she was. The bad, the ignition coil boots were melted, the genius that removed the drivers window regulator used a sawzall to get it out, and a wrecker driver backed into the front of it, destroying the front bumper and hood, I did straighten the hood out by hand and it looks okay, but the damage is still noticeable to me.
I made the decision to go ahead and pull the head after seeing the boots, no telling if it was heat or electrical failure that caused them to melt, so better safe than sorry. I started pulling it yesterday and will finish soon. My plan is to have the head and cams checked and depending on my find there I will either go ahead with a bottom end rebulid or let it be. Here are a few pics from when I picked her up.
The worst thing about this is she is sitting in the driveway. Why is that bad? That's my wifes parking spot!
The melted spark plug boots, and one of the Autolite (shudder) spark plugs I removed.
I still see a Calais here in the salvage yard now and then; let me know if I can help you with some parts.
Thanks! This is gonna be a fun project! Can you get me the "order number" of the car? It should be "91(1 to 204)", it will look like "91142" for example.
Last edited by MyQuad4; September 10th, 2017 at 10:38 AM.
Thanks! Can you get me the "order number" of the car? It should be "91(1 to 204)", it will look like "91142" for example.
I'm sorry I know of no other way of doing that than having original paperwork such as these two W-41 window stickers; at the very bottom center it says "ORDER NO W41105" or the 105th W-41 built and "ORDER NO W41121 or the 121st W-41 built.
It is interesting that the cars are identical to to each other.
The interior when I got her home. The drivers window/regulator are missing and the passenger window was stuck down in the door due to a broken slide clip. I repaired the passenger side window and it rolls up and down like it should now, I have found a donor interior from another N body enthusiast, it will be here soon. My progress cleaning it up inside will be documented in my next post.
Originally Posted by CRUZN 66
Congrats on your new acquisition... Now the fun begins...
Seat covers off, before washing. Under the headrest, this is how the material should look. Under the headrest, this is how the material should look. I am impressed with how well it cleaned up. Still a little sun bleached though. It tore in the washer, I attribute that to the wires the hog rings hold down to keep it in place on the cushion.
My son Cody, daughters Bre and Faith, and I worked on her last weekend. Faith and Cody cleaned the interior of trash and leaves, Bre got the years of leaves out from under the hood and cleaned out the cowl. While he was cleaning out the leaves from the floorboard he found some keys. I now have the ignition key! The yard couldn't find them. I ran the drivers seat covers through a "Sanitize Wash" cycle in the front loader. Steam and all for nearly 3 hours. It came out well, but next time I think wire nuts will go on the wires in the cover...
Last edited by MyQuad4; September 17th, 2017 at 07:54 PM.
The Quad 4 engine was one of the first modern engines to utilize coil-over-plug ignition. Looking at my spark plug boots has helped me with the decision to go ahead and pull the cylinder head. I started removing it. You can see some of the parts in the interior pictures above. The intake manifold, coil packs, and other various parts are on the passengers floorbard/seat.
I will be sending the head and cams to the machine shop to have them checked/decked/lapped/reground as needed. Their condition will determine what I do to the bottom end.
I do appreciate all of the response this post has gotten. At one point I did feel as though I was being bashed a bit, but I realize it isn't bashing, it isn't the type of car you are used to. These cars aren't 60's or early 70's "muscle cars", they aren't body on frame behemoths, they aren't growling V8's with gobs of torque at 2000 rpm's. Oldsmobile was famous for all of that. The infamous Olds 307, a motor that deservedly etched itself into history. The 403, so good it was shared across brands and used as the base blueprint for many race engines for decades. The 455 Rocket, a marvel of engineering and etched into Americana, it could pass everything but a gas station. And yes, the Quad 4, every bit as much Oldsmobile as any of the above mentioned engines. It was a HUGE step forward for GM, designed by Olds engineers. Over 1 horsepower per cubic inch (1.1 hp base, 1.4 hp in W41 form), naturally aspirated, so efficient that it deleted the EGR valve, smog pump, pcv, (it even passed California emission tests without them!!) and laid the path for the Northstar family of engines and todays Ecotec line. Some of those Ecotec engines are pushing 200 horsepower naturally aspirated and 300 turbocharged. They turbocharged the Quad 4 and put it in a vehicle called the Oldsmobile Aerotech. There were 2 different engines and 2 different Aerotechs. The Aerotech came in "long tail" and "short tail" versions, the Quad 4 came in 900 hp single turbo and 1000 hp twin turbo versions. AJ Foyt drove the car on the Bonneville Salt Flats in 1987, Foyt broke the old closed course mark, held by a Mercedes-Benz streamliner since 1979, with a speed of 257.123 miles per hour in a "short-tail" Aerotech. And while he was at it, erased the 2-liter class world flying-mile record, set by Phil Hill in an MG streamliner in 1959, with a two-way average of 267.399 in a "long-tail" car; on one leg of the run, he was timed at 278.357 mph in the Aerotech. I was 18 when that happened and that's when the Quad 4 caught my attention. The Quad 442 is a totally different car than the V8 rear wheel driven cars, I get that. 4 cylinders, 4 valves per cylinder, 2 camshafts instead of 4 barrels, 4 speed, 2 exhaust pipes. It isn't old school, but it is still an Oldsmobile. I love an old 3 ton Ninety-Eight land yacht, Delta 88, Cutlass Supreme, Hurst-Olds or an F85. I see the beauty in these cars. I hope you can see the beauty in my car too. I appreciate all of the positivity received from the majority of you, and hope those that don't see this car in the same light I do can appreciate my enthusiasm for this piece of Oldsmobile history.
Thanks for paying attention to something other than the "ordinary"...in a small way I can understand completely...we have a 73 Cutlass Supreme that is about as brand new as a 73 can get (all original) and while we get a ton of thumbs up and get lots of lookers at the cruise nights, etc...the "purists" don't like the car because it's not the classic "muscle car" time period....many of the shows "cut off" participation at '70 or '72 so we just pass...I do know we got a terrific cruiser for a tiny fraction of what 2 or 3 years prior would have cost.
I've owned some very nasty machinery in my 80 years..stuff that stopped people in their tracks..so I know what "style snobbery" can be but the guy with the really nice modified or original car that might not fit the bill for many of the "collectors" just show me that there is a seat for every bottom.
Glad you got the car you know about and that you will take the time to enjoy the restoration....when it shows up at a show and a few knowledgable folks will come to really give it the once over...the "busy bunch" can be over crowded around their "same old same old" cars that have been seen at every show for the last 20 years...
I had a beautiful 55 Chevy 210 hardtop....with a really nasty 383 and the right running gear..got no idea how many folks could only ask "why didn't you build a Belair"?
Thanks for paying attention to something other than the "ordinary"...in a small way I can understand completely...we have a 73 Cutlass Supreme that is about as brand new as a 73 can get (all original) and while we get a ton of thumbs up and get lots of lookers at the cruise nights, etc...the "purists" don't like the car because it's not the classic "muscle car" time period....many of the shows "cut off" participation at '70 or '72 so we just pass...I do know we got a terrific cruiser for a tiny fraction of what 2 or 3 years prior would have cost.
I've owned some very nasty machinery in my 80 years..stuff that stopped people in their tracks..so I know what "style snobbery" can be but the guy with the really nice modified or original car that might not fit the bill for many of the "collectors" just show me that there is a seat for every bottom.
Glad you got the car you know about and that you will take the time to enjoy the restoration....when it shows up at a show and a few knowledgable folks will come to really give it the once over...the "busy bunch" can be over crowded around their "same old same old" cars that have been seen at every show for the last 20 years...
I had a beautiful 55 Chevy 210 hardtop....with a really nasty 383 and the right running gear..got no idea how many folks could only ask "why didn't you build a Belair"?
Thank you for your kind words and for understanding my enthusiasm for this car! You are a true gentleman!
About half way to pulling the head. The timing cover has 21 10mm bolts in it and less than 1 inch of clearance between the inner fender well and the cover.
This thread brings back memories of my '86 Calais Supreme that I owned from 1988-92. I loved that little car. It just had the basic Tech4 under the hood but it was pretty fun to drive. That and my '91 Cutlass Supreme coupe are two cars I used to have that I wouldn't mind having again.
Thanks for paying attention to something other than the "ordinary"...in a small way I can understand completely...we have a 73 Cutlass Supreme that is about as brand new as a 73 can get (all original) and while we get a ton of thumbs up and get lots of lookers at the cruise nights, etc...the "purists" don't like the car because it's not the classic "muscle car" time period....many of the shows "cut off" participation at '70 or '72 so we just pass...I do know we got a terrific cruiser for a tiny fraction of what 2 or 3 years prior would have cost.
Screw the "purists". I don't care if people obsess about where a chalk mark was put on by some stoned assembly line worker 50 years ago, but getting a kick from poh-poing the things other people enjoy is a sign of a poor character.
If a kid enjoys driving his 1986 Cavalier, more power to him.
May 26th, 2017, 06:50 AM
