GAOldsman

delete

don71

This could lead to an interesting discussion. I always like to read about "executive" cars or "r&d" cars. Peaple working at olds and getting (ordering) what they wanted. I think it would be neat to have a four speed delmont or delta...and be able to prove it.

Allan R

Scot, just sayin.....or not sayin in this case

mmurphy77

I wish to add to this thread......MORE pictures of your beautifully loaded unique Cutlass PLEASE!!!

chrisneu68olds

The first thing that flashed into my mind was Factory v. Dealer installed options. I would think that anything that was in the parts bin could have been added before delivery, but I am going to defer to the experts. I would like to see where this discussion goes.

Octania

I have a parts car which came to me with the story that it was an exec's order car. 1976 98 I think. Had the 455, and dual exhaust, which was allegedly not an option on that year and model. Still has the dual hump crossmember in it.

don71

Ah..the grey areas. We kinda know what the common add ons are. Like bumbers and hoods..even a/c.

But what about the real savvy mechanics and buyers that could put this together back then. You know, like what was in those parts bins?....engineering departments too.

The Question really is...Is it documentable and can you prove it? Thats my take.

Dave Siltman

I've been trying to tell people, especially those on other Olds-related sites that "back in-the-day" things were A LOT different than they are today in regards to the car business. I've been around Oldsmobiles for a looooooooooooong time and have seen stuff that
"wasn't available" and tried to explain it, only to be told that I didn't know what I was talking about. HAH!!! Please show us the car and any other supporting documentation that may accompany the "unavailable" options. Thanks for posting and any others out there that wish tochime in PLEASE DO SO!!!!!!!!!!!!

MDchanic

Even today, things are done that aren't "possible."

I was just talking to a friend today who told me about another friend's car ordering experience last year. His wife was buying a Dodge minivan, and wanted leather seats, but they were not available as an option in the Dodge, only in the Chrysler. She told the dealer she wanted leather or no deal. The dealer ordered a full set of leather seat covers for a Chrysler, installed them in the Dodge, and tacked $1,800 on to the price for the "option," which she was happy to pay.

In the future, if that car ever becomes "collectible," [insert laughter here] someone may say, "What idiot made this change to the car? There's no way this was done originally."

- Eric

Jamesbo

X3

My 69 Vista has buckets, consol, and 15" SS II but I seriously doubt it came that way from the factory.

Dave Siltman

Scot, I was applauding you for bringing to light just what could and DID happen. I would love for you to show the nay-sayers that you have proof and supporting factory documentation for the supposed "un-available" options or paint choices. If my wording was such that you felt un-easy, I whole-heartedly apologize; it surely wasn't meant to.
Again, a big THANK YOU for posting the info.!!!!!

sammy

When i first saw your car, i thought it was a 72 HO!

Allan R

Ted, doncha be calling Scots car a ho!

sammy

Yup, I agree with this post

rocketraider

One thing I have learned is "never say never". The right contacts could have gotten you a lot of supposedly unavailable combinations.

I have admittedly never seen many Oldsmobiles with documentation for oddball stuff, but a friend has two Pontiacs that, when they were run thru PHS, turned up some downright strange stuff.

The 64 GP was invoiced to the Atlanta BOP assembly plant and is documented to have been a changeover from 4-barrel to Tri-Power as it came down the assembly line. All the codes and dates match. It is also the single most loaded GM car I've ever seen from that time period- if it was in the Pontiac option list, it is on that car and verified by the PHS docs. Had to have been some Doraville bigwig's car.

The 66 Bonneville Brougham turned out to have been invoiced to Pontiac Engineering. It also is a loaded car though a 4-barrel single exhaust example. There is no telling what that car went thru before its first delivery.

Chrysler made even more weirdly optioned cars. The Chrysler philosophy was if the car was coming down the line and the correct part wasn't in the parts bin, then put what WAS in the parts bin on the car and get it out the door, and let the dealer worry about it.

Allan R

Well, I'm not gonna say never. There are others on this site who will not agree with what you said at all. I'm not one of them. Finished that discussion earlier and not going back to it. Good luck on your call out. BTW, I don't really know anything about the PHS or their documentation, but I sure as heck hope its better than what the average Olds enthusiast has for resources at this time.

stevengerard

One of my 442s has special order paint, the other lots of options but with no build sheet hard to prove,

My 2004 Mercury Marauder is a one of one (technically around 1200 black 2004s built) but I ordered it with DRLs (only Canadian cars came with those) and had the dealer take off the rear deck emblem. So as mentioned even in today's world you can custom order options. Those options aren't on the build sheet or VIN of my car but they are on the dealer order form as dealer installed items

Allan R

Steven, the special order paint may be 'provable' by the cowl tag if it has the paint code listed there. There were only 4 'special order at extra cost' colors in 1970 that I'm aware of: Sebring Yellow (51), Aegean Aqua (38), Rallye Red (73) and Nugget Gold (53). IIRC that 442 in your garage that you're using for a rim storage rack would be the Nugget Gold one you're talking about. Check and see if the cowl tag shows code 53 53 or -- --. If it's the latter, you'll need some form of documentation like the factory sticker to show it's build/delivery color I think.

442

My 1970 W-30 convertible also has no documentation, but the previous owners including the owner of the dealership who ordered it were kind enough to provide signed statements containing details about the car. They all said it came original with Dodge Plum Crazy paint on it. I'm hoping to find a picture of it from when it was raced at the long defunct Creeds drag strip in Va Beach, in the late 70's / early 80's. Its a long shot, but to me, half the fun of owning these cars is chasing the history on them.

jrzybob442

For this thread to be viable a couple of distinctions have to be made: we must not overlook is dealer installed options – this is not production, nor does it make the car “original” or “special order”.

Therefore for a car to be "special order" documentation is required - thus only a window sticker or other factory-prepared documentation will suffice.

Hearsay, dealer invoices, letters from a dealer, etc. prove nothing.

When I returned from Vietnam, I tried to order a '70 W-30, but it was too late in the model run. I was offered a "fresh" (less than 2300 miles) 1969 W-31. It had been ordered for the dealer's drag racing effort and arrived too late in the model year. It was equipped with red fender wells. The dealer showed me HIS invoice that indicated the red wells - but there was no other indication. A call to Olds and Helen Earley resulted in a letter from engineering saying that the car was shipped with red wells "in the back seat" as they could not be installed on the line.

Therefore, while a dubious "special order" this is STILL a dealer installed option. My 1966 442 OAI (not W-30) arrived at the dealer with all the W-30 pieces in the trunk; once again a "dealer installed option" even though my invoice stated "OAI option".

Thus, we should mak the distinction here: Factory Vs. Dealer Installed, with DI cars NOT special order, otherwise a tissue dispenser could be construed as a special order.

joesw31

I owned a 1971 supreme that had the w25 option, ralley pack, ralley wheel, a/c, posi, FE2 suspension, ralley one wheels, power windows, sport mirrors and heavy duty cooling, and T44 hood lock. Lastly, AM radio front speaker only. The only paperwork I had was a carbon copy dealer invoice.

Jamesbo

Scot,

Awsome, thanks for posting

tru-blue 442

Great story Scot!
It's nice to see you were able to keep the
old girl in the family. Are you going to put
her back the way grampa had her?

sammy

Cool history, enjoyed reading about it! Did it always have a painted roof? She does not look bad, and it's not deteriorating any further.

Ted

442

Nice car and great history behind it!

Jamesbo

Geeze Scot, have you ever looked to see which options the car did NOT have?

442

GAOldsman, I've just done general searches on Creeds drag strip and pretty much come up with history from it's airstrip days. Creeds is now a police training facility and I have heard that one of the guys there is collecting pictures from when it was a dragstrip. It's not far from me so I will definitely drop in there one of these days and find out more.

wmachine

I'd like to elaborate on this statement. When it comes to paperwork, it helps to know where the information on the paperwork comes from. By "proving nothing" in the case of dealer invoices, this means that a dealer invoice does not not prove that the factory installed the option. The Dealer Invoice was simply what the dealer was charging the customer for. This (quite logically, I may add) includes factory *and* dealer installed options.
So a Dealer Invoice is *not* proof of factory installed equipment. And a "Special Order" also does not mean (in itself) that the special order components were factory installed. The Dealer Invoice *does* confirm how a car was bought. Which I think is very significant. A fine line? Sure. But a difference never the less. I know of a documented case where a car was purchased with at least 2 components from the previous year that were not available on the current year's model.
Wielding paperwork doesn't do much good unless you understand it.
I know some of you may not want to hear this, but that's the way it was. I don't want to make waves, however the truth deserves to be told regardless.

sammy

Not sure if this is relevant, BUT a couple of observations

1-1970 Olds Cutlass supreme Freemont build sheet box 101 has been typed over to read HOOD and under that a 2. Why is this box on the build sheet? Were there other hoods available, or to tell us that the car came with a hood?

2-What the heck were bypass codes on the build sheets? Mine reads;

BYPASS CODE 2

BYPASS 974DE. 2

Is this indicative of anything "special" on the car ?

I may be way off base , just thought I would add my 2 cents

Ted

tru-blue 442

When You go for the restore,
I have a feeling the 'might as well' will
kick in, and she will have the rally pac..

stevengerard

My nugget gold car does have the double dash and I too have the dealer order form that says "Special Order" Nugget Gold paint. Yes I have some doccuemntation but as Wmachine says I don't "really" know what came from the factory. I assume most of options did (certailny the color would be factory as it is a dash dash but they could have had a -- rallye red car on the lot and painted it gold for the buyer, I know, surely not but they could have) Also the broadcast card says W30 but other than that not sure what really came from the factory.

My convertible is loaded with options but again without a build sheet I don't know what was included from the factory and what wasn't. Two things I rarely see on A-body convertibles, shoulder belts and power seat back release certainly came from the factory but I have no proof. One is hard to install the seat belts rather easy

And again my Maruader had a few items put on at the dealer not factory installed.

I for one think the GAoldsman car is one of the coolest cars out there and love the story behind it and the Plumb Crazy W30 - nice to have documentation? Sure but still cool rare cars.

wmachine

These are different documents with different origins of information. Some are from the dealer, others are from the factory. You've already been given examples of dealer installed options that were on the invoice. You can chose to ignore that if you'd like, and you can also believe the production records are wrong too. Your car was ordered and delivered the way that is was invoiced, regardless. But the fact remains that an invoice does not prove that an option came factory installed. Again, it is just a matter of understanding what the paperwork means.

MDchanic

I know that this comment will not be welcomed, but why do any of you care whether an option was installed at the factory or by the dealer?

Either way, the car was delivered to the new owner as a new car, with zero miles on the clock, with that option, as ordered.

I mean, sure, the factory didn't, or wouldn't, make certain exceptions, but if it was on the car when it was first driven out of the dealer's lot, then who cares?

[flamesuit_on]

- Eric

Dave Siltman

Scot, Great car, great history, and great story here. I, for one, believe every bit of the FACT of that car being assembled at the FACTORY with the listed options. And the paint being special along with the Plum Crazy Purple, too. You guys gotta remember this, Olds was a BIG player back then and could break corporate rules and guidelines. How about the Hurst Olds programs---455s in A bodies on the assembly line--remember the 400cu.in. rule? How about supplying the better drag teams with cars, parts, back door monetary support when GM banned racing? I remember in 1984 I ordered a customer a new Delta 88 Coupe that according to all the normal guidelines wasn't "available"--it took two letters, one to my zone rep. and one to Oldsmobile; long story short--my "special" 88 came in 4 weeks after the order was "accepted".

The Tin Man

My oldman has his 71 delta S O new in 71 with ssv wheels,duels, w-30 pag and the book he order it from. Took 9 months to get the car. Thats why he took the dealer book. When to Olds nats and they said on judges sheet nice wheels to bad they were not olds wheels. Last olds show he went to.

stevengerard

Wow, does he still have it all? If so he should be on here or at least you should post pics, very cool and unique one of a kind car

jrzybob442

“We’ve decided to close WAC because it is apparent that documentation issued by the factory is all wrong. All cars out there are “as delivered” from the factory, regardless of the process, the documentation or the information written down anywhere.

I am excited about this, because I have the ONLY 1963 W-30 Starfire delivered, ever. It is complete with a factory 4-speed, a special code W30 394 stroked to 434 by Olds engineering and has the only 394 J-2 type triple carb manifold. It is complete with an original factory installed AM/FM stereo radio and 6 speaker system and a digital tachometer that was the prototype for the one used in the ’73 Hurts Olds. It also has the factory one-off Olds 12 bolt B Body 4.33 rear.

This car was special ordered by a doctor in Wichita KS, who played golf with John Beltz who with a slip of the tongue told him about the Toronado project. To keep the doctor quiet, Beltz told the Wichita Olds dealer that he could “special order” the Starfire with those factory options. It has no body plate and is painted 1953 Cadillac Phoenix Beige – and all this is clearly marked on the Dealer invoice, including “Special 450 HP Hot Rod” written across the top. My dad’s barber told him about it in 1965 and he was able to talk the doctor out of the car because he didn’t like to use a manual transmission.

It is going to be up for auction on E-Bay, so keep your eyes out for it – starting bid will $400 thousand – who knows how much more it will bring, it is so rare!

jrzybob442

The only one rolling eyes is me. Cars were NOT sold by Oldsmobile, but by Hurst. That is how they got around the 455 limit. Cars were not a "special order", except that Demmer, a prioduction house got the contract to assemble them for Hurst.

They had to be "built" at Demmer (not Oldsmobiles) and sold as Hurst/Oldsmobiles to get aroud the 400 limit. This is no different from a Nickey 427 Camaro and a Mr. Norm '65 "Street Hemi" Coronet. In the case of botgh of these cars, the orginal motor was pulled and the big boy put in, at the dealer.

Dave Siltman

I hate to tell you , but the above reference to the Hurst Olds being like the 427 Camaros is not accurate. The 455s were installed at Oldsmobile's assembly plant, then the cars went to Demmer to be "finished" and then were re-invoiced and returned to an Olds dealer for retail sales. In 1969 my father had a '69 Hurst/Olds as a company demonstrator for a local (now out of business) dealer in the Baltimore area. The pre-1969 Camaros were sent to Nickey, Yenko, Gibb, Dana, and the engines were removed and a 427 was then installed. Only in 1969 through the GM C.O.P.O. program were 427s installed at the FACTORY. The same for Chevelles in 1969---remember that A-body 400cu.in. rule? Chevy had a way around it, too. I know of a 1965 Cutlass (NOT a 442), a white two door hardtop, that was delivered to City Olds in Baltimore, MD in 1965 with a 425 cu.in. as a NEW car. There is at least one other Olds-related site that has trouble believing about that one. An Olds engineer was contacted and said "YES" it was entirely POSSIBLE for that car to have been built--the engine was painted gold like the 330 and the car had a Jetaway trans.
Not every Chevrolet dealer knew about the C.O.P.O. program or how to utilize it, just as not every Oldsmobile dealer knew how to obtain a car that differed from the normal ordering guidelines. It is a shame Oldsmobile doesn't have the archive support like PHS or Marti. Usually, Canadian cars DO have that support and are easier to document. Back then very few dealers or buyers bothered to keep detailed records or documentation--that is why cars WITH that provenance will sell for more than one without it. Rarity or collectibilty wasn't a factor when these cars were new--it was just another unit.

stevengerard

I have read many times that the 455s int he HOs were factory installed, I thought there were pics of Demmer with cars coming in with the engines in as well, or maybe they were shots of the cars in the building already.