dallasite21

OK. Now for the next step in my Saga. So it turns out my engine was all jacked up. All bearings were showing signs of wear so i ook it out and started the rebuild process. I replaced the main bearings, rod bearings, cam bearigs, the cam, the piston heads and all gakets. Problem is that when I try to turn it by hand it with the breaker bar it wont turn. I looseed up the bearings and cap to see if maybe there was a problem there, but it still wont turn. Then I loosened up the valves to make sure there was no interference... still wont turn. Any suggestions as to what this could be. It was turning before, but now now it wont. If its not the crank, rod caps, or valves... what could cause this. If I did something stupid while trying to rebuild this engine, please have mercy.. Im just a guy who knows very little but isnt afraid to learn... Please help.

dallasite21

Sorry for the spelling, I have a laptop with a sticky keyboard

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

When you put the mains on did you use plastigage to get you proper clearance ?Oil or grease every thing?

dallasite21

I did not plastigate it but I loosened up the bearings after it wouldn't turn, but still won't turn.

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

Plastigage is a must when it comes to main bearing, you need the proper clearance. You may of screwed up your bearings or crank,may of flattened the bearings/crank.They are touchy. I've done a little engine rebuild in school years ago, so my knowledge isn't that great but their are guys here that will tell exactly what is wrong.

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

You will know tomorrow when others see the post

InfoJunkie

All of the caps, main and rod, must go where they were taken from. The pistons must all point forward (mark on top to front of engine) and be in the correct bank. I'm wondering how you aligned the timing set if the engine won't turn over or even tightened all the rod caps. If it turned over for you to do all that the problem may be in the cam/lifter/valve train.

TripDeuces

Put the flywheel on with a bolt that is too long and it's hitting a web in the back?

dallasite21

ok so here is the issue. I let a shade tree guy who I thought was professional rebuild my engine. It wouldnt turn so I looked it over and Im no pro but the rod caps do not appear to be matched up right. I have attached pics. I have decided to do it myself. Im going to plastigate and everything. I have a couple of questions though. Please look at my pics too.



1. What are the torques specs for rod caps and main caps as well as torque sequence for main caps?

2. If indeed the rod caps are all mixed up, how can I match them back up properly?

3. The bearings have already been lubed so I guess I have to remove the lube to plastigate? or should I leave the lube on?

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

Mains around 100, caps around 40,the other guys will know more.If the caps are mixed, you are going to have issues. Every thing should of been stamped before it was torn down, who knows what went where. Lube wise, take it off, it may affect the clerance when you torque every thing

MDchanic

Always PlastiGage dry, no oil.

If those caps were mixed up, all I can say is,




"You're in a heap o' trouble now, boy."



- Eric

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

You may have better luck in looking for a new motor

greenslade

if the caps were mixed up,would an align bore fix it?does the eng turn some or is it locked up?

dallasite21

An added piece of info. The engine is still out of the car. I only tried return it by hand so I would think there shouldn't be any major damage or anything. Just need to get it all realigned properly.. am I correct on this?

Warhead

Above specs are wrong for a 350 Olds.

Torque specs are as follows
Mains 1-4 are 80 ft/lbs, #5 main cap 120 ft/lbs-it has larger bolts.
DO NOT OVER TORQUE!!!
I do my #5 at 110#
rods are 42 ft/lbs
If the rod caps were mixed, you WILL have to have the big ends honed again.
They should only go on the way they came off, or the way they were honed.

Jim

dallasite21

OK.. More info...So I took the rod caps off and investigated everything. Soon as I took off about half the rod cas the engine would turn over again. Im really pissed because the guy I paid to do it did a pis poor job. Not only were the caps turned all sorts of different ways, but the actual rods are too. He had several of the turned where the the sides of the rod and cap didnt match up. Now I will have to remove the crank and turn all the rods the right direction, then mate the caps with the right rods. The only thing that may save my *** here is that the rods and caps have overspray from when I painted the engine a while back, and some of them can be matched up by the paint patterns on each piece. Even though I am no mechanic, I will be doing my own work from here on out. at least I give a damn enough to research something if dont know if its right. No one cares about your stuff like you.

MDchanic

You are one lucky M-F if you can find enough overspray to match 'em all.
My hat is off to you.

+1.

- Eric

ps: remember - not only do you want the rods facing the right way, you want the pistons facing the right way, too. If the pistons were never pressed off the rods, then you'll correct two things at once. If the pistons WERE pressed off the rods, you'd better look out, because you don't know what kind of a job this guy did.

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

Who done this engine for you? Guy doesn't know his A$$ from a hole in the ground

kjr442

If all that was wrong, I would wonder what else is wrong, like how the rings were installed.

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

or the timing chain, valves set proper, gaskets .......

Red71

and was the block properly cleaned?
if you have rods and caps you cant match, you may be able to bolt the ones together
you are unsure of and mic them until you can match them up so the big end is round.
You will see enough out of round with wrong caps.

coltsneckbob

This is so bad. I never let anyone work on my car unless they have a solid reputation. Plus I always interview beforehand just to see if they know what they're talking about.

svnt442

Wow. The rods and caps should have been punch marked before the engine was disassembled. They guy who did this supposed work just sounds like a total HACK. If you paid him anything I'd say he owes YOU money to pay to have everything rechecked to make sure all is right.

oregontopcat

Unless you can positively match each rod with its cap you will have to take the rods and caps to a machine shop. They can resize and match the caps. Make sure you check the mains also. It sounds like he installed new pistons on the rods? If so each piston must face the same way on the rods and face the correct way in the block. Obviously this guy was short of experience, hopefully you can find someone a little better to give you a hand. Dave

dallasite21

Ok I think I may be close to figuring this thing out. It turned over fine after I took about half the bearings off, and there were two that were clearly turned the wrong way. Im going to boltthem back up and see what it does tommorow, but I ave a couple ofquestions.

1. On the two sides of the rod cap, there ois one side that has a flat surface that connects to the flat surface on the end of the rod, and on the other side of the rod cap there is the same flat surface with a small nub on the edge. The question is .... shoul the side withthe nub always face a certain direction, like toward the center of the engine or toward the outside of the engine?

2. I have a new set of sealed power pistons, and rather than pull the heads to insure they are turned correctly, I started looking for te markings on he underside of the piston since I have the engine upside down on a stand. On most of them the side facing the manifold has 5-13 and the opposite end has a D. There is one where this is the exact opposite. There is also one of the pistons that shows an "N" instead of the D, and another that shows a NS instead of a D. Does anyone know where there markings sit in relation to how the piston is supposed to be facing? For example if I know tha the side with the 5-13 is where the notch is on the top of the piston, I could use that info to make sure they are turned the righ way with out pulling the heads.

3, In case this does not work, what all does the Mic'ing process entail. I am a rookie and dont even know what it means to do that.

jag1886

It sounds like you need some professional help, if you don't take this to a shop and have them fix it properly this is going to end up real bad and expensive.

oldcutlass

X2 on taking it down to a machine shop, the may be able to salvage the rebuild and at least double check tolerances. It should not be that expensive, at the very least, way less than lunching that motor.

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

If you are going to take it apart yourself,when you take the rod caps off,please please cut piece's of hose and put them one the rod bolts. If you don't do this you will bang up the crank.Then you will have to take into the shop and grind down the crank.

dallasite21

OK everyone... I have stripped this engine down and started from scratch. I got all the rod caps straigthened out and it turns over fine. I plastigated main and rod bearings and I have put on my heads. Now I just need to install my oil pump and adjust/set valves before I assemble the rest. That brings me to my next question. What is the best way to set the valve clearances? I saw an online video that said to crank the engine until the intake lifter goes down and the exhaust lifter starts coming up. At that point you tight the rocker until you can no longer tur the push rod by hand. Is this a good way to do it, or is there something else I should be doing to accomplish this?

Also, how much clearnce should I have between my oil pump screen and the bottom of the oil pan?

MDchanic

To echo a comment on another recent thread:

You do have aftermarket adjustable rockers, right?
... because the factory ones don't adjust.

- Eric

dallasite21

I believe I have standard. They are the originals. So I just need to torque to specs and thats it?

GTI_Guru

Man, everything you have mentioned above is SCARY. Without having a machine shop go totally through that motor for tolerances on the pistons, rings, wrist pins, rods & mains, pretty much everything, you may be set up for failure. Did you even check that the oiling holes in the rod/main/cam bearings were lined up correctly with the oil gallery holes?

I could go on and on about everything that needs checked, and I've built a few engines over the years, but this is pretty bad. I really hope you got it together correctly on the bottom end, otherwise, you're going to tear it up in very short order if just one piece isn't in there properly.

There could also be damage to the rods or crank from torquing it up with the caps out of place. If the crank is scored, or the rod ends around them misshapen, plastiguage won't show that. You need a good micrometer to measure it ALL at this point.

If you're not sure what you are doing, and I mean 100% sure you have it together correctly, stop now, get an expert to go over it and make sure it's correct, otherwise, you're going to get it running only to have it lock up, or catastrophically fail. Right now it's still fixable, but once it leaks rods, there's no saving it.

Not trying to be the harbringer of doom, but I have learned a few lessons the hard way myself. It's way cheaper to have it checked now, especially if you have some nice new parts you paid good $$$ for in or on that engine.

If you don't have a good build manual yet, (and it sounds like you don't if you need torque specs) I'd recommend picking one up.

http://www.mre-books.com/oldsmobile/...rformance.html

If for some reason that link doesn't work (it looked funny in the preview) then just do a google search for this title:

"How to Build Max-Performance Oldsmobile V-8s"
By: Bill Travato

I don't personally own that one, but I have read it years ago and it has all the info you need in there to assemble a nice engine properly with all the specs you need.

Additionally, there's dozens, if not hundreds of shop manuals available on CD out on Ebay. Just search for your make/model and you'll easily find one. Those are usually the dealer maintenance and repair manuals digitized, and very worthwhile to have on hand for this type of work.

Also, FWIW, I'm a former ASE certified Master Auto/HD truck technician, and I spent over 2+ years in trade school learning to do all of this correctly, and then another 10 years in the field working on everything imaginable. Not trying to brag, but I have seen things like this that turned out very badly before.

Point in case, NEVER take apart a McPhereson strut by holding it between your feet and using an impact wrench to take off the top nut. *shudder* Owner's lucky that didn't take his head off.

I do applaud you for attempting to rebuild an engine without knowing how it's done in order to learn a new skill, but some things are best learned by someone that has the experience to teach you. Keep asking the right questions, do the proper research, and when all else fails, get an expert to double-check your work.

-Jeff