dallasite21

OK, so I have this knocking sound coming from my car and I was able to determine with a mechanics stethascope that it is coming from the oilpan/Flywheel area. I can determine which one it is but there are symptons to support both issues. Here are a list of my symptoms.

1. Rough Idle
2. Intermittent starter problems... sometimes it turns over fast at the normal speed.. other times it drags.
3. I have smoke/blow by coming from the calve covers at times. Othere times its fine.
4. I noticed that there are washers between the torque converter and flywheel which wre not here before. I had to have my transmission rebuilt and thy had to replace the torque converter twice becasue they kept botching the job. Would the spacing of the washer cause issues?
5. Oil Pressure is at about 15 psi untill the car runs for a while then it is at around 9 Psi.


I have video uploading to youtube right now and will post the links as soon as they finish uploading.

Any suggestions as to which problem you think its more likely to be?

By the way, its a 1971 Cutlas S Conertible 350 engine 4 barrell carb TH 350 Trans.

2blu442

It sounds to me like you've got a couple different problems. I don't understand why they would put washers between the torque converter and the flex plate. I was going to suggest you check the torque converter to make sure its tight. Once I had a bad knock in a motor that turned out to be just a loose bolt in the torque converter so it was flopping as the motor rotated. I wonder if they lost the bolts and tried to use ones that were too long? That might explain the need for a spacer. I think I'd still check to be sure all three bolts are tight and that the torque converter is tight against the flexplate.

If the timing were off that could cause the starter to turn over slowly, and to run rough. You might check that.

I don't know why you'd have intermittent smoke from the valve covers. Is there a pattern, like only when the engine is hot? The oil pressure sounds low, but as discussed in other threads it might be worth your while to try another pressure gauge before tearing into the engine. Just to make sure your getting the accurate pressure. John

dallasite21

As for the smoke from the valve covers, it seems to get worse as the car runs longer and gets hotter. I also seems to be the same way for the knocking.

2blu442

I hope everything works out for you. As I think about it, if the shop that rebuilt the transmission had trouble getting the torque converter right, what kind of skills/work did they do inside the gearbox? John

dallasite21

Here is the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISojjJ8AV5o

2blu442

I just listened to your video and agree, it sounds like the knock is from the transmission (or torque converter) and not the engine.

MDchanic

Very hard to tell because the sound isn't full-range, but from the dull ring, and from what you describe, I'd consider the converter fasteners or the converter itself first. And if these guys didn't install the converter correctly, they need to do it again, or to refund your money.

- Eric

dallasite21

Here is another video of the flywheel and converter turning over during starting. Does anything look out of the ordinary? I also added pics of the washers they put between the converter and flywheel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPlqRRAoypI

citcapp

They have either installed the wrong converter or as John says used to long of bolts, either way its a bad installation. take it back and tell them to fix it right or refund your money. The washers are just plain wrong period.

MDchanic

This is why I don't let other people work on my cars.

- Eric

dc2x4drvr

Are you in the North Dallas area, if so take it to Plano Transmission, Jeff is the owner, he'll give you an honest evaluation. PM me if I can help.

gearheads78

Its common to use washers (shims) with an aftermarket torque converter to make sure the drive side of the converter goes into the pump at the right depth. Not so much in a stock street car but this is very important in a high horse power car.

I can't see youtube at work but I would make sure all the bolts are tight on the converter first.

The low oil pressure and the excessive blow by worries me too.

Run to Rund

As Richard said, if the converter hub is too long (made wrong for the Olds application), it will bottom out in the crank and you would have to bend the flex plate with the mounting bolts to tighten them. Hence the washers. The hub might not be tight (its OD vs. ID of the crank); that is what is supposed to index the converter. You could have an out of balance converter, the flex plate could be installed wrong with the shop egging out holes to force it to fit (it only goes on one way correctly), or the flex plate (automatic flywheel) could be cracked.

For the smoke etc. check your distributor timing, timing advance and vacuum advance. Also check that the distirbutor housing is not broken from the shop letting the engine sag when the trans was out and having the distributor hit the firewall.

J-(Chicago)

I'd pull that whole ridiculous mess out of there and fix it right.

9psi, a knock, slow starts, smoke, and an iffy trans install is just sad.
Time for a rebuild.

OLDSRALLYE350

If you look at the bolt in the last picture its not a torque converter bolt. Its a regular bolt with washers added because the bolts are to long. I would take the bolts out and push the converter back toward the transmission as far as it will go, the torque converter should turn freely and then you can test run the motor to see if the noise is gone. While your at it i would check the bellhousing bolts around the outside where they fasten to the motor they may be loose.

dallasite21

OK so I got under the car and looked at the torque converter bolts. The reason they used washers was because they used generic hex bolts and they were a little too long to go all the way in. Therefore they used washers to space them. I took the washers loose and backed the converter away from the flywheel... It spins freely. Then I started the car to see if I still heard the knock. The knock is still there and the flywheel is a little wobbly still. The next step is to loosen the oil pan a little. I was told it could be a clearance issue inside the pan. Is there anything else I coul check easily that could produce that knock?

compedgemarine

if you have the converter loose take a screwdriver and see if you can move the crankshaft fore and aft. I have had issues with cheap rebuilt converters ballooning and pushing on the crank till it wiped out the thrust bearing. I had a 455 that this happened on and by the time I pulled the motor the bearing was gone and the crank had a 1/4" deep groove in it.

dallasite21

I just went out and checked and the crankshaft is good, However I have come up with a new possible theory. I noticed that my oil pan is indented on the side right in the area where the starter is. I also looked at some pictures of the engine with the pan off and saw that theiris a counter weight there. The question is how much clearance is there on either side of the pan. How far would the pan need to be indented to cause contact?

compedgemarine

not far. depending on the location of the dent it is possible for the crank throw to touch. I believe some one else on here had that very issue awhile back. I would drop the pan off. you will know right away if it is touching and you will be able to look at every thing.

dallasite21

I was hoping I wouldn't have to do that, but I gotta do what I gotta do. I know I have to lift the engine a few inches to get it out, but where do support the engine while I'm removing the pan? I plan to lift it from the bottom.

compedgemarine

when I did the last one I had I just pulled the two motor mount bolts and put a wood block under the balancer and lifted it with a floor jack. I know someone will say that is wrong but I figured if the crank can take the abuse it normally sees a few minutes holding the motor up wont kill it. if you have an engine hoist handy you could bolt a chain from one head to the other and lift from it. once you lift up the front of the motor the pan comes out pretty easily.

dallasite21

OK.. I dropped the pan and while I dont know exactly what Im looking for, I dont see anything that appears to be broken or misplaced. There is a little play in the piston rod where they connect to the cranks shaft, but that appears to be normal because they all had a very slight amount of play. There were no shavings in the oil pan, the oil pump looks good... What else should I be looking for? I am attaching video and pics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpYJYm_FnuA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s848cfB0K4

gearheads78

Look at the inside the pan where the dent is. Is there a spot on the inside of the pan when you can see it was rubbing?

When you say play in the rod to to fell side to play or in and out play. If you can fell any in and out its done.

MDchanic

With a rod bearing clearance of about 0.002 - 0.003" dry, you should feel either "no," or so close to "no" that it might as well be "no," movement in the direction of piston travel with oil on the bearings.

- Eric

TripDeuces

Your dipstick tube shouldn't be that loose either. It shouldn't move in the block. I doubt that's the noise but still wrong. Like Gearheads78 said, side to side movement on the rods is ok but up and down is not. Although I'm surprised there's that much movement side to side that you can feel it and obviously hear it in the video. The bolt holes on the flexplate look strange too. One looks crushed while the other looks large. Are you sure that converter was tight? While you're under there I would torque all the mains and rods to spec if you've come this far. Also make sure the transmission is bolted tight to the engine block.

MDchanic

Just actually watched (carefully) your videos (slow connection tonight).

That looks like an outrageous amount of radial play in the rod bearings, but it would explain the low oil pressure.

If you want to get an objective measurement, you can remove one (reachable) rod bearing cap, push the piston up (watch out that the threads don't hurt the bearing), clean all the oil off of the bearing journal, then plastigage it.
I'll bet you're near 0.010" by the sound of it.

- Eric