Just finished the replacement of the Pertronix I unit and old distributor + cap/wires with a reman points distributor + cap/wires and the difference is like night and day. The old distributor is suspected to have stuck counterweights, so once I started to drive the idle would go up and stay up (1200 rpm). Additionally, the idle could not be adjusted low enough before the screw fell out because of this. Car was also sort of hard to start IMO. A correctly tuned Olds should pop right on. Had to work the gas pedal too much.

Thankfully I got the engine to TDC without much difficulty and got the old stuff out of the way. Pertronix has two distributor wires, so getting rid of it cleans up the coil connections somewhat. Installed the points distributor and clocked it properly as the old one was off by a bit. Made all the connections and it started right up and ran roughly at around 500 rpm. Adjusted the idle UP for the very first time to 850 rpm. Feels good to have idle adjustment back with this replacement.

Set dwell at 30 degrees and timing at 2.5 BTDC initial per the CSM. The car is running smoothly so I shut it down to reconnect the vacuum and reinstall the air filter housing. Now, the car starts with a touch of the key, confirming my mid-70’s experience with my ‘68 Cutlass. The exhaust has a new crackle in it’s note as well, which is a pleasant side effect.

I don’t necessarily think the Pertronix was 100% responsible for the issues, especially the idle speed ones. Those were from the sticking counterweights in the old distributor. But the hard starting likely was due to it. Waiting on new spark plugs to arrive and then fine tune the QJet before a seat of the pants comparison, but it’s running much better than before.

 

I had a 71 BB Elco. The weights stuck on it, and I retimed it, as it was to far advanced. But then the weights came loose and when back to where they should be, and the car would not run. Put in different distributor, HEI and ran great. Now I check the weights every time I take a cap off.

 

I think your engine would like 7-8*BTDC more.

 

As in “additional”? So 10 degrees? Can you provide context?

 

No, 7-8*.

 

2.5 BTDC is brutal for performance, if I remember correctly this was done for idle emissions, and it will naturally make the engine run hotter. I run 16-18* base in mine (stock factory distributor with M&H breakerless conversion), and with super light springs it will have 32* at 1000 RPM.

Are you sure the idle speed control issue is distributor related and not a vacuum leak? Are the throttle blades in the carb drilled for a large cammed car?

 

Many reputable mechanics have tossed the electronics and gone back to points and had the same results. I raced with the Accel 32oz points and never skipped a beat, shifting at 6000 rpm. The aftermarket is full of snake oil salesmen and tricks-of- the- month. Truth is they don't have a fraction of the resources the auto mfg's have for testing.

 

Thanks for the input on initial timing. Although the CSM is considered as “the” source of information, I guess fifty-some years of tinkering has produced lots of useful footnotes based on the practical experience of thousands of mechanics.

Scott

 

Where did you pick up the reman distributor? I dumped my FAST (Comp Cams) breakerless ignition module last year after experiencing difficulty starting. I had sent the first one back because it didn't work at all. The second one worked for a while and then starting giving me problems after about a year. I'm back to points in my original 70 BBO distributor which is probably ready for replacement. I miss the rev limiter but the points are more reliable in my opinion. I have heard similar experiences with Pertronix. I know Luke is happy with his M&H. I guess you get what you pay for.

 

By the book is great but sometimes it does hurt...

2.5 is sleepy, done on purpose by factory for emissions ... Factory generally knows best but in this case they were neutering your car.

The higher the degree of timing within reason generally the more aggressive the performance and performer. 1968-1971 442s are without a doubt regarded as a performance vehicle. But there were compromises...

1968 400 ignition timing BTDC

290 HP = 5 degrees
325 HP = 2.5
350 HP = 7.5
360 HP = 10

As you can see the 325 HP 400s timing is an aberration. Intentionally done with a specific goal that was not all out performance.

Apples and oranges but below is 1969s 350 CID ignition timing BTDC

250 HP = 6 degrees
310 HP = 8 degrees
325 HP = 12 degrees

The pattern is quite obvious.

 

Big time !

"years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it." http://442restoration.homestead.com/442TechSpec.html

vacuum
100% on both ends. The detritus within the aftermarket must be sifted through with a fine tooth comb.

 

Carid.com has the reman units for around $85 right now. That was all I needed to prove the old unit was causing several issues.

 

Great info and just what I was looking for. Corporate decisions and effects of regulations vs. capabilities is a never ending battle, it seems.

 

FWIW Rockauto.com has them for $65 with a $25 core or the same price as carid.com at $85 plus a $10 core

 

The posted initial timing listed on charts are sometimes deceiving. Your timing decision needs to be based on the amount of mechanical advance built into the distributor. Arbitrarily bumping up the initial advance combined with the vacuum advance available can possibly destroy an engine at higher rpms. If you want to do it right, look at the whole picture.

 

Absolutely.

Yes, and sorry if my previous post was not thorough enough. The factory initial/ignition timing I posted was for specifically different variations of engines. Not HP gains or losses you can expect to see from one specific 1968 400. Same for 1969 350.

Turnpike Cruiser 400 2BBL rated at 290 HP has an ignition timing of 5 degrees.
Automatic 442 400 4BBL rated at 325 HP has an ignition timing of 2.5 degrees.
Stick shift 442 400 4BBL rated at 350 HP has an ignition timing of 7.5 degrees.
W30 442 400 4BBL rated at 360 HP has an ignition timing of 10 degrees.

Low compression 350 2BBL rated at 250 HP has an ignition timing of 6 degrees.
High compression 350 4BBL rated at 310 HP has an ignition timing of 8 degrees.
W31 High compression 350 4BBL rated at 325 HP has an ignition timing of 12 degrees.

My goal was to show that the more performance orientated an engine was the higher the number of degree on advance.

 

I agree never had a problem with shift points at 5500 to 6000 rpm shift points. There is nothing wrong with a point ignition system in good condition. We ran AC/Delco performance point sets. I think they were for the corvette.

 

That was also my experience back in the 80s. NAPA / Echlin 23 ounce "street" points, high quality coil, cap, rotor and wires. The engine would pull through 6000 RPM with no issues. I saw absolutely no difference in operation / performance when I swapped the points setup for a GM HEI with quality coil, cap, rotor and wires.

 

As weird as it sounds back in the day before readily available high performance points, etc. a small piece of vacuum line behind the breaker arm would greatly assist Ford set-ups, of course had to watch for pad wear and lubrication issues. I for one used the brand new (mid 70's) Echlin dual point distributor for awhile but had to add the upgraded stabilizing plate to maintain correct dwell angle through varying RPM ranges. Using stock distributor in my 65 Jetstar 1 even as we speak!

 

HEI is not an "upgrade", its just a change. Most of the people who "upgrade" to HEI can't trouble shoot why their car is sitting dead at the side of the road. You'll see 100 times more cars dead at the side of the road with "HEI" than points. The "HEI" will go bad without warning, not so with points. Points will work to over 6,500 RPM's.
....Just my two cents worth.

 

Oldster Ralph is right HEI is just an expensive change not an improvement, dyno tests have shown no increase in power with HEI over points, actually the HEI has a slight drop in power in mid range.... can't find the dyno chart somebody posted some years back on this board but it is an eye opener. Big cap, fat wires and fancy name is about all its worth....

 

Getting rid of the Pertronix is one of the best improvements you can make to your car. I get my OEM Delco Remy points and condensers on ebay. They are the real stuff and not made in China. They may cost you a little more but well worth the money. The part number for the points is 1931988 and the condenser is 1932004. Of course you could go with a uniset but I don't know that part number.

 

Wow.

 

I didn't bother to save my Pertronix after I removed it, It went in the rubbish. I always have a used set of points on hand.