Run to Rund

There are two schools of thought currently in the Oldsmobile Club of America: The present approach is that the car must be an Olds, but can have the original engine, a different Olds engine, a different GM engine that might have been in the car originally, or a completely different GM engine that could not have come in the car.

Another school of thought is that other cars, maybe GM or maybe others, with Olds engines could be allowed in judging/show classes created for them. One example is an Olds powered ****** or Anglia gasser race car from the 1960s, or a Pro Stock Olds from the 1980s. Another type of example is the Pontiac Firebird with the 403 Olds. Here is a case where Chevy and Pontiac played politics and GM management refused to let Olds sell an F-body. They were afraid because already had the most popular car, the Cutlass. If someone loves Olds and Olds power, but wants an F-body, what should the Olds club do? Another case is the "incomplete" cars from Olds that were made into ambulances, hearses, and motorhomes. Should they have to find another club for their cars?

OCA Bylaw 2.10 states:
The primary purpose of this organization shall be educational. OCA shall provide literature, advisors, seminars, and activities to assist members and the public in understanding, preserving, restoring, and appreciating vehicles built by Oldsmobile.

Thus, an activity like a car show, and a car in it, must promote Olds. A race car with Olds engine does so, at the track, by competing and (hopefully) winning.

What does everyone think? Should OCA remain the same, or open up to other cars that promote Olds in some way even if not pure Oldsmobiles?

rocketraider

GM did enough damage putting non-Olds engines in Oldsmobiles.

I can see letting the Olds-based professional cars and motorhomes in. Possibly the drag cars, as they are a different animal entirely.

If they open the club to non-Olds cars, Olds-powered or no, the ultimate effect will be to dilute the Oldsmobile name and identity even further. Besides, in the case of 403 Firebirds, that was more a result of Pontiac phasing out its large-displacement V8s and finding a comparable engine that would pass emissions than it was of Olds wanting an F-body. The same is true of Buick/Pontiac full-size cars toting 403s or 307s- they no longer had a large displacement engine of their own (or by 307 time a V8 of their own at all) and corporate emissions certifications drove those installations.

Such a move would make me seriously consider discontinuing my OCA membership. Keep in mind I have held continuous membership since 1983 and served as Atlantic Southeast Zone director 1990-2000.

66400

The engine is the heart of the car or truck so lets allow any Olds powered car compete in OCA, be it a OEM installation or an owner conversion.

Any Oldsmobile professional chassis belongs in the OCA without question.

Henry

GAOldsman

A very big X2

1969w3155

x3

64Rocket

Huge x4

Gene

Run to Rund

Just so it is clear, does this mean that those with x's mean it is OK to have:
"I can see letting the Olds-based professional cars and motorhomes in. Possibly the drag cars, as they are a different animal entirely."

But you don't want the club opened up to non-Olds with Olds engines in other categories?
Also, are you current OCA members?

GAOldsman

No the X equals agreeing with rocketraider's post entirely just reiterating what he said

Yes

No it wouldn't be The Oldsmobile Club of America anymore it would turn into The BOP&C of America and yes OCA#41461

D. Yaros

Seems to me, A ****** with an Olds engine is not "a car built by Oldsmobile." I say no to this, and I am an OCA member.

aliensatemybuick

Maybe the impetus behind this considered changed is the dearth of cars showing up at national meets; if so, it should be considered along with the "purity" argument.

Oldsmaniac

Opinion asked for so here is mine. If it did not come with a badge or emblem somewhere from the factory hinting to it being an Oldsmobile it is NOT an Oldsmobile and should not be in OCA shows. Nor should an Olds with a non factory engine (non Olds) transplant be permitted in a Olds/OCA national event. A transplanted Olds engine in another vehicle does not make it an Oldsmobile. GM cars, BPCC are not Oldsmobiles regardless of factory installed engines. Seems simple enough to me... OCA member #2587

66400

To be a member of OCA you do not even have to own an Oldsmobile!

Henry

1970cs

Weighing in here, My 2 cents worth, I will agree with most by not dilluting the name or standards set by OCA, We are the caretakers of our Oldsmobiles and I would assume we wanted to be different by not owning Ch_vy or F_rd!

Pat
OCA 29119
Former R.E. Olds chapter president
Former Homecoming chairman
1970 Cutlass Supreme coupe
2004 Alero GLS coupe
All Lansing, MI built

TK-65

The Homecoming show already allows cars like this. Not many there but Ive seen a few.

joe_padavano

How many SBC-powered Faux Four Twos do you want to see in OCA? Sorry, but letting factory-installed non-Olds engines (I6 Chevy, Buick V6, SBC Delta 88, 305-powered 1978 442) is my limit.

GAOldsman

Amen Joe

Run to Rund

Sorry, Joe, it is already being done. Not only does OCA allowed in Modified Class an Olds with any GM engine never before seen in an Olds, but two such Oldsmobiles have won Best of Show at the Nationals (I know of Seattle and Reno). How can something with Chevy power, a slap in Olds's face some would say, be the very best car in the whole National show?

In the 60s, racers, including Joe Mondello, built gassers from the cheapest, lightest, smallest cars they could find, ******, Anglia (a British Ford, <gasp>), and Fiat. Who can say Mondello wasn't an Olds Freak? Stone, Woods and Cook are still famous for their Olds powered gasser, and everyone associates it with Olds, not with some funny car line that died 20 years earlier (Willlys did not produce cars, only Jeep-type vehicles, after WWII).

The OCA Bylaw says the activity must promote Olds; it doesn't specify that the promotion be an Olds-built car, just that Olds built cars be promoted by it. If a ****** gasser won on Sunday, didn't that promote the sale of Olds cars on Monday? How about Warren Johnson's Pro Stockers, built by a chassis shop?

"How many SBC-powered Faux Four Twos do you want to see in OCA?" They are already allowed, as above. More importantly for us, what should our thinking to be, include or exclude whatever we don't personally prefer.
"We are the caretakers of our Oldsmobiles and I would assume we wanted to be different by not owning Ch_vy or F_rd!" I agree. How do we handle other preferences, include or exclude? I think the Bylaw is an effective decision maker. Whatever the car is, it must promote Olds. I personally think that for Race Car Class anyway (whose rules and judging sheet allow chassis shop cars and deduct no points for being non-Olds so long as Olds is promoted) a ****** with Olds power promotes Olds better at the strip than a Chevy powered Olds does. I feel that on the track the engine is the heart and soul propelling the car to the win.

More thoughts????

nonhog

If the OCA majority wants all Olds. Then that is how it should be.
Pretty simple.
My take is not that way but I am not an OCA member nor see that I will.
I love cars,not just Olds. I became bored out of my mind back in my Chevelle days going to Chevelle shows. Hated the lack of variety. I prefer
car shows/events that are not single make.
Not at all trying to be argumentative just sharing my opinion.

TK-65

not so fast Dad, ****** made the aero from 1952-55.

Run to Rund

Oops, I was thinking about the "classic" ****** used to make gassers. Now how about a '55 ****** with a blown 455? lol. Might it promote Olds at the track? Hmmm, 14x32 slicks, pulls the wheels through first gear and into second. . .is that Olds power or what

Nonhog, I don't know what the majority of OCA members what, nor do I know how to find out until OCA finishes improving their website, to allow polls, etc. Also, what do potential members, who have stayed away because of current OCA practices, want?

oldcutlass

I've got a guy here in town resto rodding an Aero coupe as we speak, with a Pontiac powertrain from a late model GTO. It's sweet! My take on it is the OCA is Olds and should stay that way. I would not dream of entering my car at an OCA meet, just out of respect to those that kept theirs pure!

However at BOP, or any local show, all bets are off!

Run to Rund

Look at the Pro Stocks and Super Gas cars on p. 10 of the Olds race car thread. Not mfg. by Olds, but are they "worthy" to be in an OCA show?
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...e-cars-10.html

Oldsmaniac

Yes they should be allowed (Olds Powered Only) as well as rails, altereds and the like as it was the Olds engine that is promoting and touting Oldsmobile. I am referring to a past racing history. In a race car some things can be overlooked....my opinion only.

okie88

I am an OCA member, and I say an Oldsmobile powered by an Oldsmobile. There's a beautiful 50 Olds Woody that I've seen at several shows, and the first time I looked at it with the hood up and saw the Chevy engine I just about puked ! Sorry, but that's me.
I really don't like to make a big deal of it. Everybody has their own tastes, and I respect a cool car, Oldsmobile or not. Just throwing out my opinion.

66-3X2 442

If they allow an Olds car with any kind of engine other than Olds,they should allow an Olds powered car. If I was King,it would be ALL Olds and no freaking half breeds. I was @ Seattle and saw the Chevy powered early Olds and it turned me off.OCA # 10596

1969w3155

Yes,OCA #034307. The Best Of Show at Reno, was not a Olds Nats winner, it was awarded best of show by the Cali. club separately by it's members for their club. It was discussed on this forum, I contacted the OCA about it, and they clarified it.

texxas

I bought both of my 79 Trans Ams BECAUSE they had the 403 engine in them.(and they were cheap) I've got 73-74 Oldsmobile embossed valve covers for both too, so if and when I do show them everyone will know what's under the shaker. I'd love to show one at an Olds event someday. They aren't making anymore Oldsmobiles so I say let them in. OCA member#039870

D. Yaros

We all should recall when actual Oldsmobile cars came from the factory with Chevy engines, and what a fiasco that was with Oldsmobile purchasers. Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it!

rocketraider

This thing is a hot topic everywhere in Oldsworld, but word I got today from a reliable source is that it only applies to Olds powered race cars, not factory production non-Olds cars with Olds engines. Quote from email:

Gentlemen,

I just read your email and your concerns, being on the race car committee, I just want to clear something up. Any change would be just the race car class, all other classes would stay Olds only. It's only to accommodate race car owners who build cars with Olds engines.

I can live with that. But I see no point in allowing a 403 TransAM or 80s B-P-Cad with a 307 on an OCA showfield.

GAOldsman

That's good to hear rocketraider I knew there was a line somewhere in all that sand

442much

For our Rocket Round up In Olds, we've told people that any car with an Olds engine can enter our show, as long as Olds built the car. A Cutlass with a 305 Pontiac engine is allowed because that's how Olds sold it. I don't think the OCA should bend here. We won't as long as I am president of our club. I am also an OCA member since 1990 and was Pacific Northwest Zone Director twice.

ah64pilot

Where is the line when it comes to Olds that have been modified but aren't race cars. IE my '72 Supreme with a 455 in it. It wasn't sold like that, nor could it be ordered like that but it is all Olds. Eventually the lines are going to get fuzzy because everyone has a different idea what an "Olds" should be.

I'm not an OCA member, mostly because I can't justify the expense when it could go to car parts. But also because I don't see the benefit other than saying I'm in the club or getting JWO which would get thrown away anyway. I know a few members, we get along great...but the "club" isn't holding us together, our mutual enjoyment of Oldsmobile's is. Sorry...got a little off track.

I would walk this line carefully or you will end up looking like a pompous Corvette club.

Redog

I sorta agree with the statements above. The thing I'm not feeling is the non Olds engines in an Olds that was installed at the factory.

There is a video on YouTube and it's called something like Last of the true Oldsmobiles. It was taken at the 2009 Homecoming show when the Alero was one of the featured cars being it was the 10 year anniversary of the car. The video was taken, not of all 26 Aleros that where there, just the 99-01's that had the 2.4 Twin Cam motor in it which is based off the 2.3 HO motor in the 91 442. My car was left out of the video because it has the 3400 SFI which is a GM corp engine. As far as I'm concerned, I drive an Oldsmobile. I didn't pull out an Olds motor and drop in a different engine, hacking up the engine bay and rigging it some engine to make it fit.

The funniest part about this entire thing is back in 1991, all the Olds guys were pissed off that a 442 was a 4 banger, but in retrospec, it was the first 4 cyl N/A Sport Compact car in run 14's in the 1/4 mile. Over 20 years later, I still don't think there is a NA 4 cyl car running 14's in the 1/4

Oh yeah, look at my sign. I'm not just an OCA member either

rocketraider

Pilot- your case is different as you have an OLDSMOBILE body with an OLDSMOBILE engine that could have been installed in that car on the assembly line. Not sure where you're getting info that a 72 Supreme couldn't have a 455 as they most certainly could. Maybe not built up as yours is, but they dropped 455s in them every day.

I can't follow the logic that wanting to keep the Oldsmobile Club of America as a club for Oldsmobiles is getting into pompous Corvette club territory.

I don't hear the Buick Club or POCI rattling about allowing non-Buick or non-Pontiac cars into their ranks just because the car in question has a Buick or Pontiac engine (though to be fair GM more or less forced POCI into accepting GMC trucks or lose what little factory sponsorship they were getting), and I don't think the OCA should take that route. You might see a temporary increase in ranks but at the expense of diluting Oldsmobile identity even further than it already is. I've gotten beyond tired of explaining that my Toronado is an Oldsmobile, not a Buick Riviera, and that my Starfires are not Impalas, and then being questioned "You sure?"

Yeah, a blown 394 or 455 in a Gasser was and will always be cool. But I really don't want to see a factory-produced 403 TransAM or 307-powered Riviera or Coupe DeVille mixed in the showfield.

Run to Rund

The purpose of this thread is to hold a calm (OK, an impassioned but civil) discussion of what we think promotes Olds, either at the track, or at the show, or on the street. It seems there is agreement that on the track, the Olds power rules, especially if a non-Olds body is something cool like a gasser or other race car like a Pro Stocker or rail dragster. That is all that is being considered in OCA-land now anyway.
We diverge somewhat when considering other cases. I think it is a good thing to put an Olds engine into anything. You are just upgrading the car from a Chevy engine, or another Olds engine (smaller, less HP, whatever). Inversely, putting a Chevy into your Olds just insults Olds, lol. I have heard some impassioned, and somewhat convincing, pleas from people wanting to drive their Oldsmobiles daily, on trips, etc.--people who want reliable, well-mannered 500 HP and 25 mpg and are considering LS engines. In the 1980s no one complained when finding that his Chevy had a premium Olds engine in it from the factory. Olds owners did complain and start a lawsuit over finding Chevy engines in their Oldsmobiles. I realize some Modified cars get BBC engines and I have to allow for differences in tastes and opinions, even when I disagree personally.

If we look at non-Olds cars with Olds engines on the street and at the show, like the Trans Am 403, it is less clear that these cars promote Olds and belong in OCA shows. At first, it seems that if they are in the show, they should be in their own class, off in a corner called the "leper colony." Some on this thread think that is way too generous! I'd like to hear from the owners of such cars to get their opinions, and how they feel their cars promote Olds, and why they would like to bring their cars to OCA events. They are already welcome as members of OCA. Should OCA tell the members "bring me a rock [one of your cars]". . ."no not that rock [the Olds powered something else]". . ."bring me a rock [another of your cars, one we like]".

Should we not try to bring a tolerance and acceptance for non-traditional ways of promoting Olds? What if a multi-millionaire (Jay Leno comes to mind) has Shelby cars with the Aurora V8s that were purchased from Olds by Shelby, and after telling him not to bring his cars to the show, we find that he just bought the rights to the Oldsmobile brand from GM? Just wishful thinking. . .

rocketraider

That's not the way it was first presented to us. See below

One thing I have learned about the current OCA administration is that it is going to do what it damn well pleases regardless of what the membership thinks, and it is not very transparent about what it does. Any of you familiar with the current brouhaha over the JWO Editor's responsibilities, and how the administration wants to nearly double his workload for less pay than he gets now? I think it's a ploy to make him quit, but they better watch what they're doing- good publications editors don't grow on trees. Right now JWO is the best it's ever been, and I've been thru every editor since Jenny Waller.

442much

I agree, Brad is doing a superb job as editor. But getting back...we want our local car show for Oldsmobiles only. Heck, around here Pontiac has their shows, the 50 567 Club has just Chevs from those years and as for the Mustang club, they don't even allow other Fords, just Mustangs.

A lot of shows that I've been to can have up to 800 cars. In a show that size, you may get 25 Oldsmobiles. A recent 200 car show had 4 Oldsmobiles, so what's wrong with wanting a show of our own.

In the past when we have our show in the town of Olds, Alberta we got cars from BC, Saskatechewan, Manitoba, all over Alberta, Washington and Montana states. Any Olds, any year. You don't even have to be a member of our club to join us. But a Ford with an Olds engine was not allowed and neither was a Firebird. I won't bend here.

Where I am flexible, is once in, we won't throw anyone out if we see that the engine is not an Olds engine or one that came in an Olds. However, when I pass out event flyers at cruise nights or other car shows promoting our event, I tend not to drop a flyer in the window of an Olds with a non Olds engine. If he shows up, that's different. We probably won't notice until later on, although some sound so different that you know.

Every participant comes from out of town as we have only one member living in the town of Olds. I drive 225 miles round trip to this show every year. Last year we had a guy drive 450 miles one way to get to our show, but the long distance winner was from 800 miles one way. He had a chev engine in his 1937. We weren't going to turn him away after diving all that distance...heck, we weren't going to refuse him no matter how far he drove.

ah64pilot

I think that in the case of a street car, the car itself is what represents Olds. My comment about Corvette clubs is that if you turn away an Olds because it is powered by a chevy, you are turning away a conscious decision to use an Olds body for its appeal. What will keep the club alive, and prosperous is not to resist "change" but to accommodate those that want great mileage & modern engines.

I am a purist at heart, but guys like Aces have done cool stuff w/ their cars and I think it is ridiculous to turn him away from a show because it's an LS1 powered Cutlass. JMO

Run to Rund

OCA allows the factory installed engine, whether Olds or something else, in stock classes. Other GM engine installations in Oldsmobiles are allowed in Modified Class. I agree that OCA should allow more variety than just my opinion or yours. The bylaw just says it must promote Olds. I remember in 2001 then head of Olds brought a 442 concept car to the Nationals, with a Northstar engine. There is a case of Olds putting a non-Olds engine from GM into an Olds. We all know about the 1970s and '80s Olds with Chevy, Buick, etc. engines. Some think of OCA as a "country club" and cars have to be "worthy" to come to the show.

rocketraider

Once again we're getting into apples and oranges. Oldsmobiles with a factory installed non-Olds engine (though I remember that pink and gold trimmed 442 concept and suspect it had an Olds version of Northstar which was different from Cadillac's) are something we as Olds enthusiasts had no control over. The lawsuits should have told GM they were on the wrong path, but the old GM arrogance would never let them believe they had screwed up.

A conscious decision by an Olds owner to install a non-Olds engine that was not a factory installation in an Olds body is essentially saying the owner either does not respect Oldsmobile engineering (which was widely regarded in the industry as being the best in GM and second only to Chrysler's), is too damn lazy or incompetent to build a proper Oldsmobile engine for his car, or has fallen into the trap that his car has to have a modern engine to be reliable. To that I will say again- if you want a modern car, go buy one. They build and sell 'em every day.

Other than a race car, I don't want to see non-Olds cars with Olds engines in OCA. But, as stated above, this OCA administration is going to do what it damn well pleases regardless of what its membership thinks. If they allow this to happen, I will think to cancel my OCA membership same as I did POCI when they allowed altered data plate cars in their ranks. Don't agree with it, not going to support it.

Maybe someone with a 307-powered 80s CDV will join and cancel out my protest resignation.