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Good day, I am very new to wrenching on cars, specifically to my 1969 Oldsmobile 442 Holiday Coupe Automatic. It is a numbers matching car. However, the engine is now a 455 with turbo 400, changed drive shaft to 342 gearing. I still have all the original numbers matching sitting in a family members garage. I am interested in putting in a Muncie 4 speed, my question is, do you think this is a good or bad thing to do to this car? I think it is ok because it’s not a w30, and would be more fun to drive, but unlike the engine swap, I don’t think there is much to going back from on this modification. What’s your thoughts? Thanks for your opinions!
Last edited by Case442; April 30th, 2024 at 09:07 AM.
While a 4spd is a lot of fun the first thing to consider is if the crank had been drilled to accept a pilot bearing. Next would be if the block has the boss for the zbar. It's not an easy bolt in mod like other makes.
Absolutely, lots of things to address for this one! Fortunately, I have a few people that seem very willing to help on this one for me. I guess I am wondering more about if in general people think this either adds value or takes away value from the car… you are absolutely right with all the work that will be required to get it right!
Here's something to consider too.
If you took the money that you could get from selling your car.
And added to it what it would cost you to convert said car to a 4 speed.
( figure something in there too for your labor if you do your own work)
Could you buy a turnkey 4 speed '69 442?
Stick shift adds an anti-theft device too.
Its doable as long as its done correctly.
No hacking!
Do your homework on the parts and what mods are needed right down to the drive shaft. You can't (shouldn't) use a 68-69 automatic drive shaft in a stick car.
You have steering column modes, NSS mods and a speedometer head swap. 4spd consoles are not cheap and hard to find in good condition, if you were thinking factory console,
Charlie Jones, thanks, I have kinda toyed with that but can’t find anything near that I think I can make that swap, plus I’m just kinda getting the car right and want to enjoy the drive. I get it though, good suggestion.
Fleming442, that’s why I’m thinking about this! lol
droldsmorland, you ain’t wrong, I wrote down pages of parts the other day, probably still missing a few too! I think I have most figured out where to get or already have in inventory, but the driveshaft is not one of them at this point. The original is sitting in the garage after the turbo 400 was replaced, I’m not sure what size will be needed for the Muncie job. My car is actually a bench.. so was thinking just cut the hole and cover around with a rubberish cover after popping up…
To me, your biggest concerns are the block and crank being drilled; everything else can be done rather easily.
Avoid the "Rockcrusher" temptation, as the 3.42 rear gear won't match up well with the 2.20 1st gear. You'll be going 30mph as soon as the clutch is fully engaged, and it will probably chatter a lot. Go with an M20 that has a 2.52 1st. If you're feeling a little nutty, AutoGear makes M22W/2.56 1st and M22Z/2.99 1st gearsets that have the straighter cut 22 style gears with a 20 spread. I have a 22W I'd part with if you're interested.
Fleming442, thank you for that, lots of my concerns too; I will be relying heavily on my father in law and a wizard for many of this, in fact the project might come to an end before it gets off this forum if the wizard isn’t interested! lol also appreciate the 22w, I have first refusal on a 22 wide at the moment that has been rebuilt already that started this potential build. Initially the next step on my car was just to change out for a better stall converter. Now here I am! lol
For the best anti-theft, get a Mr. Gasket Vertical Gate or Hurst V-Gate 2 shifter. Woody tried to race my car and couldn't figure out where first and second gear were--he started out in 3rd and roasted the clutch all the way to the backing plates.
For the best anti-theft, get a Mr. Gasket Vertical Gate or Hurst V-Gate 2 shifter. Woody tried to race my car and couldn't figure out where first and second gear were--he started out in 3rd and roasted the clutch all the way to the backing plates.
I had a 70 SS that every couple of months I would swap between Hurst V Gate & Super Shifter(3? (red T handle)) because I loved them both and couldn’t make a choice. M22 w/ 4.56 so the shifter got a lot of use, up to 25 mph at least!
Assuming you plan to deal with drilling the crank for the pilot bearing, get a TKX five speed. The car is a long way from original already. Since you apparently are going for fun to drive, the five speed will be a better choice.
Good day, I am very new to wrenching on cars, specifically to my 1969 Oldsmobile 442 Holiday Coupe Automatic. It is a numbers matching car. However, the engine is now a 455 with turbo 400, changed drive shaft to 342 gearing.
How is a 455 swap numbers-matching? There's a whole other thread on here about how no 455 was ever installed in a '69 4-4-2 from the factory
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
Assuming you plan to deal with drilling the crank for the pilot bearing, get a TKX five speed. The car is a long way from original already. Since you apparently are going for fun to drive, the five speed will be a better choice.
Agree. Since it's already been modified, you might as well make it the way you want it. Just don't underestimate the amount of effort/money involved and end up with a hack job. Do it right -- there's some good advice here to get you started down that road.
And my 0.02? Keep it factory-appearing. Best of luck.
I agree completely with the TKX suggestion. Contact these guys: Transmission Conversions | TREMEC Solutions & Kits | Modern Driveline I recently did a fair bit of research on converting my own '69 442 from TH400 to TKX. Ultimately decided against it. I prefer to keep the car more original appearing and will invest in a better torque converter than the crappy one currently in the car. Good luck if you decide to do it. Nothing beats a bench car with a 4-speed stick poking out of the floor.
I voted NO. Why change your Cutlass to make it fit a muscle car stereotype? It's your car though.
I agree. It’s not 1965 anymore, the days are long past when automatics were slower and inferior to manuals. And I don’t buy the “4 speeds are more fun” argument. To me, whatever makes the car faster is more fun. If you have fun in a faster car, and also get to enjoy effortless driving, there is no downside in my opinion.
You could easily upgrade to a much better automatic and not hack up the floor for far less than the cost of a manual conversion.
I agree. It’s not 1965 anymore, the days are long past when automatics were slower and inferior to manuals. And I don’t buy the “4 speeds are more fun” argument. To me, whatever makes the car faster is more fun. If you have fun in a faster car, and also get to enjoy effortless driving, there is no downside in my opinion.
You could easily upgrade to a much better automatic and not hack up the floor for far less than the cost of a manual conversion.
X 2
And at a "stop light contest", the car that gets to the next block first will be remembered, not what transmission.
I bought my 68 Olds about 27 years ago with the plans of installing a 4 speed, it never happened. I raced the car for a time, it runs a beefed up TCI 400 and I embraced my inner automatic by adding a Hurst Dual Gate. No regrets. I voted NO.
@GN1220 : Be that as it may, the car is not numbers matching, and may never again be, especially if that family member decides to sell the old G-block for scrap.
@GN1220 : Be that as it may, the car is not numbers matching, and may never again be, especially if that family member decides to sell the old G-block for scrap.
That family member could be his parents, sibling, who knows, that is a total car person and knows exactly what that engine is. Kudos to him for pulling the matching number, original engine and storing it safely away while he has fun with the car.
That family member could be his parents, sibling, who knows, that is a total car person and knows exactly what that engine is. Kudos to him for pulling the matching number, original engine and storing it safely away while he has fun with the car.
Well, definitely better than selling it after carving up the car's floorpan for an LS swap.
ST10 is a four speed. The DNE 4+3 used in Corvettes is an ST10 with a planetary OD unit on the back. The old Nash 5spd is now branded as a Richmond.
I know it is, I run one currently. Notice how I said “or if you want a 5 speed” I guess I missed a ,
my 5 speed is 1:1 fifth but it’s geared so you can run “highway” gears and it’ll act like overdrive but you’ll have lower driveshaft speeds(if you care).
Huh, I guess they changed it. I still won't buy one. LOL. I'm not a fan of gears breaking.
what are you referring too? It’s my understanding that a doug nash is stronger then a Muncie or even a st10. My st10 is the “power brute” cast iron main case and mid plate, should hold all the power I can afford to make.
my 5 speed is 1:1 fifth but it’s geared so you can run “highway” gears and it’ll act like overdrive but you’ll have lower driveshaft speeds(if you care).
This is a point that most people don't understand. The gear ratios in the trans are irrelevant. What matters is the effective final drive ratio. 1:1 top gear in the trans and 2.73 gears in the rear are the same as 4.10s with a 200-4R (0.67 OD) on the freeway. The metric that matters is the spread from first to high gear. Those 4.10s with a 2.52 first gear Muncie will be the same off the line as 3.10s with the Richmond 3.33 first gear. I really can't understand why anyone would want a close ratio Muncie for street use - especially when you have a BBO that makes over 450 ft-lbs from 1500 RPM to 5500 RPM.
April 30th, 2024, 09:05 AM
Muncie install on 1969 442; yes or no?
