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These are what I have always known as 70 Lansing build sheets. They are very rare to find in a Lansing car. I am for sure not an expert on build sheets but TK-65 is saying what I have always believed them to be. The other format build sheet is non Lansing built cars. That other format I have found in a California built car.
Do you recall where the 'Lansing' build sheets were hidden in the Rallye?
I'm a bit confused because I thought someone mentioned that the reason no build sheets were found in Lansing built cars was because line workers were told to dispose of each car's DNA profile in a trash bin.
Do you recall where the 'Lansing' build sheets were hidden in the Rallye?
I'm a bit confused because I thought someone mentioned that the reason no build sheets were found in Lansing built cars was because line workers were told to dispose of each car's DNA profile in a trash bin.
I believe that to be true but on a very rare occasion these can be found in a Lansing car. These were found loose under the front seat on the floor. It is hard for me to believe that they were in that spot from the factory but I don't know. I got the car these were out of around 1995 so who knows what happened before that.
I do know an "old timer" who worked at Fisher Body in Lansing from 1949 to 1984 .
If I get a chance , I will show him this thread . And see if he can give us any additional input .
Spotted on ebay today thinking ok another claim of a build sheet?!
Looks legit with patina.
Pat
I say the sheet pictured is phony, Here's why.... Look at the right hand top box no'9 that says " Vehicle Ident. Number. Why aren't there the first seven digit's of the vin that would start of as 344 and end in the plant's Id letter that would plainly show an "M" for Lansing. Every Build sheet I have is printed with the first part of the vin and you can see what plant it came from and that the last six are for that particular car where added as the car was built.
since we've never seen an authentic 1969 LANSING build sheet that matches the attributes on display here - who's to say these aren't the proper placement for the VIN segments?
TIRES, mentioned in three places (I have issues with all 3)
box 93 = L90M 5 (not a legitimate code) I think they wanted "L8DM", but I'm still not sure a "white stripe" POLYGLAS F70-14 tire was available on a '69 W30??
box 106 = 670X14 2X2 PLY BFI a possible attempt at "G70X14", WRONG, not available "too big" for a '69 OLDSMOBILE A-body
box 107 = PK5 TIRE FIBER BW ahh - here's the problem ..... PK5 the STANDARD tire on all 1970 442 W30s - a RWL G70-14 fiberglass-belted "WIDE OVAL" tire
Last edited by hurst68olds; August 14th, 2017 at 11:38 PM.
I do know an "old timer" who worked at Fisher Body in Lansing from 1949 to 1984 .
If I get a chance , I will show him this thread . And see if he can give us any additional input .
That would be great but not sure how much a Fisher Body guy will know about the build sheets. Even if he can give us information on the broadcast card would be great! Always great to here from people that were there.
Geeze - I'm off line on an airplane for a few hours and this thread goes crazy!
Apparently no one has actually read the supposed Lansing build sheet, which purports to "document" a 1969 W-30 convertible with POWER DRUM BRAKES!!
'Nuff said. End of discussion.
And to Jaunty: The reason why I care that this is a phony Lansing build sheet is because here is yet another bogus car being supported with phony documentation.
Apparently no one has actually read the supposed Lansing build sheet, which purports to "document" a 1969 W-30 convertible with POWER DRUM BRAKES!!
I saw that but it was practically meaningless to me. I just figured since it was an auto trans car, it was neutered like the 70-up W-30 autos and could have AC and power brakes. But what do I know?
I saw that but it was practically meaningless to me. I just figured since it was an auto trans car, it was neutered like the 70-up W-30 autos and could have AC and power brakes. But what do I know?
Prior to 1970, AT W-30s got the same 328/328 cam and power brakes were not available.
I read all these posts and find it all very interesting. you guys really know your details.
My question, aside from the fact it is/maybe a fake 442, it is beautiful looking car in the pictures. Would this car still be worth the asking price, if it was listed as a copy/clone? Heck it cost me $30K just to restore my 77CS.
This is no proof at all. We've already made the point that we don't know what a correct Lansing build sheet looks like, and comparing it to what build sheets from other plants look like only proves that it didn't come from one of those plants. But it doesn't prove it's not real. Show us what a REAL Lansing build sheet looks like (certainly they did exist at one time) and how this one differs, and then we'll have proof. Until then, it's just speculation.
What I'd really like to know is, why is it so important, to you and Mr. Padavano, that this be a fake build sheet? What would be so horribly wrong if turned out to be real? Would it destroy your world view? I, for one, think it would be excellent if this turned out to be a real build sheet. It would be the proverbial "exception that proves the rule." It would give all of us with Lansing-built cars a straw of hope to grasp at and a reason to tear our cars apart looking for one!
ok let me ad my 2cents in here. I say sheet is fake. Those style build sheets were not used by Lansing. I hv mine for a 73 H/O, they are more the size of the fisher sheet or broadcast card. And to prove all I do hv original pics of '69 build sheet which is similar. Also hv the "B" sheet for '69. I've got copies of many build sheets after '73, ones before are so rare. Eventually I may post a partial pic just to satisfy all but I keep guarded bc of stuff like this. Bad enough there are perfectly reproduced window stickers, they are now doing build sheets and dealer bill of sales. Don't agree with this part of hobby unless it's done with full disclosure bc some will use inappropriately.
I asked him this question about a week ago and got the following response back. Could very well be he was taken by the previous owner and just wasn't aware.
Not everybody is Oldsmobile savy.
Beautiful looking car, but have some questions need answering please.
According to your documentation Build Sheet & Data Tag,this car should be:
Trim 937 = Parchment/white interior with buckets
Color 67 = Burgundy mist metallic exterior paint color
Code A = Parchment/white convertible top
W30 option package came with front disc brakes...yours appear to be drum brakes.
Can you explain the discrepancies with your ad. Also, this car is being discussed extensively on the Classic Oldsmobile Website as NOT being a W30.
Hello Scott, Yes i have gotten a few other emails about the original color of the car being burgundy with a white top. This came as a shock to me because when I bought it it was black then I had it taken down to metal and repainted and the body shop never mentioned anything. I guess I should have looked up the codes for the colors. I will be changing the listing tonight to reflect that new info. I wouldn'd even want to mislead anyone. If I was I would have never posted the build sheet and the data plate so hopefully people will see I didnt know myself. I have been told that W30's didnt come with disk breaks at all from several people. But it is coming to my attention that everyone seems to say they know more than the next guy so all I can say is this is what I was told and from some research I have done online it seems to be correct. A perfect 69 442 W30 with original engine, color, no AC, etc would command 100k not mid 30's plus im not trying to represent this as a flawless car just a very good quality driver with non original engine, some small paint issues, Vintage AC installed, etc now including not being the original color.Hope this clears up some of your questions. Sorry for incorrectly stating that the car was originally black.
Nothing to do with this particular 442/W30, but was the disc brakes on a '69 W-30 a delete option? Just wondering since the dealer order form for a '70 442 has a code to delete the disc brakes for W-30.
Time to clear up some mis-information in this thread.
At the start of the 1969 model year, manual DRUM brakes were the ONLY brake system available with the W-30 package. Manual DISK brakes were a mid-year addition as an option.
Do not confuse the 1969 cars with the 1970 cars. In 1970, manual DISK brakes were baseline brakes on manual trans W-30 cars. Starting with the 1970 model year, W-30s with automatic got the less radical 285/287 degree cam as used in every other AT 442 that year. As a result, AT cars WERE available with power disk brakes starting in 1970. Of course, how this milder cam made the same HP as the manual trans W-30 motors is one of the great mysteries of our time...
Note that for 1970, there WAS a little-know manual drum brake option - RPO JL7. This was not publicized and was only available on W-30 and W-31 cars. It was solely intended for drag racing, since the drum brakes can be backed off to reduce drag on the wheels.
I stumbled across this thread today and finally read its entirety. This is one reason I disagree with fake paperwork, here's a real nice car, might not be 100% correct but is for sale with supporting document that is questioned. Sure the seller now claims unknowingly of stuff including build sheet, but if you commit a crime negligence to the law ain't no excuse. So being unknowledgeable of the facts is not right either upon resale.
Another issue about window stickers, those are widely reproduced and now becoming hard to tell from real or fake. Many of you members here are part of the OCA and go to national meets and many cars display fake stickers. I've even seen where judges docked points for incorrect things on a fake window sticker that didn't match car! So are they supporting you make a better fake?! Imo if you have any fake documents displayed at a national meet, the total points of 15 for supportive literature should net 0 for fake stuff. Don't get me wrong, not totally against making a sticker but like in this thread, this is what happens upon sale of cars, people use this to deceive just to get more money. If it's not real or copy of real, why are they even shown at a major car show?
im very big on literature, all three of my cars hv lots of real documents. And yes a real Lansing build sheet for a Hurst Olds even! I may have added and item or two but not going to make a fake sticker so it matches my car for show purposes. Just saying fake docs does ruin credibility on subject cars or the people using them without disclosing they are not original.
Last edited by jwsolds; August 23rd, 2017 at 07:27 PM.
Just saying fake docs does ruin credibility on subject cars or the people using them without disclosing they are not original.
Amen. I can't see a reason to have a reproduction window sticker unless you are trying to prove your car is something it is not. Unfortunately, as the money goes up, so do the fakes. One needs to be an informed buyer.
Ok here is little more gas for the fire. These are original pictures of Lansing B/C car line circa 1973. Build sheets on the windshield look pretty good size to me.
Ok here is little more gas for the fire. These are original pictures of Lansing B/C car line circa 1973. Build sheets on the windshield look pretty good size to me.
Yea I've also seen another large line sheet like that too. Which I've documented one belonging to a '74 H/O.
I realize this is a fairly old thread, and I recalled glazing over this one before, but another couple of nuggets on nailing shut the coffin on this particular Lansing build sheet being debunked as a fake:
1) Notice the hyphens. With the IBM line printers of that period, the hyphens were WIDE. Wider than normal. The "Lansing Build Sheet" here does not have that. Red flag to me. While TK-65 is correct there are font issues, the glaring one is that the line type system they used back in the day had a ribbon and hammer type of printing. Very archaic by today's print standards. And it also meant that the printing came out more like pock-marks instead of smooth, crisp and clear lettering. It all depended on how new the machine was and how tight it was maintained. Note on some systems the chains were so wobbly the letters wouldn't be exactly lined up straight when they would strike sometimes, or strike leaving light or darker printing, even on the same character sometimes. Because of the way it was typed in, there was built-in fuzz to the print quality. This example is virtually crystal clear in comparison.
2) While my own 69 442 was being dragged into the Demmer building to become an H/O on that very day, this car was supposedly starting down the assembly line. It was 4 /1, a Tuesday. My car's cowl tag date code is 03D, and I found out from Kurt Karch the actual build date was March 27, a Thursday. 4/1 was only 3 production days later, not counting the weekend (3/29 and 3/30). At any rate, looking at the VINs, there's a difference of -77,051 in sequence (see below). But that was the number of assigned VINs BEFORE my car. Sure isn't adding up. So an 04A car has a VIN that is a long way before a car built in 03D, only three production days earlier? I don't buy that at all. My own analysis data below:
August 14th, 2017, 05:18 PM
