Diego

I think the reasons have been stated in a previous post or four. But before you raise me, you really should answer the question: Do you consider the Trans Am to be a different vehicle than a Firebird 400 or Formula? Or is it simply a Firebird with a spoiler and decals?

Intragration

Let's simplify. Do you consider the Judge, which is an option package on a GTO, to be Pontiac's equivalent to the W-30, which is an option package on a 442? In other words, Judge=W-30, GTO=442?

Diego

No, you still need to answer my question. However.......

1966 GTO.......................1966 4-4-2
Standard motor................Standard motor
Tri-power.........................L69
Ram Air............................W-30

1967 GTO.......................1967 4-4-2
Standard motor................Standard motor
400 HO............................(no equivalent)
Ram Air...........................W-30

Olds_71_442

The Trans Am to Firebird is the equivalent of the 442 to the Cutlass from 71 down. Two different cars.

However, the GTO and the GTO judge were both the same car. Just an appearance package being the difference.

Diego

I said Firebird 400. Please use that in your comparison.

TK-65

What makes the "identity" argument even dumber is Carousel Red was a special order color on any 69 Pontiac. So you could two GTOs side by side, with Carousel Red paint, 4 speeds, Ram Air IIIs. One has THE JUDGE on the fenders and one does not. Identity my behind. Pontiac also sold them in other colors, so the paint wasnt even an exclusive part of the Judge option.

The Judge was a tape/spoiler option. End of story.

MDchanic

I always thought the TransAm was a Firebird trim package, but then I'm neither a Poncho nor a Firebird guy.

- Eric

Diego

That's not true.

So the story continues . . .

TK-65

Jim Mattison (gmman@123.net) from Pontiac Historic Services provides some additional information on paint codes:
Sean, Carousel Red ("T" or 72) was available as a "special order" paint color on all 1969 Pontiacs, not just the Judge and some Firebirds. A considerable number of 1969 non-Judge GTOs were painted this color. I have even heard some refer to this as a "Judge Delete" option, but no such "Judge Delete" option ever existed! Today, most folks think that if they find a '69 GTO with a Carousel Red ("T" or 72) trim tag, it has to be a Judge.........NOT so!!!
Jim Mattison, Pontiac Historic Services

http://www.gtoforum.com/f12/rare-69-...sel-red-36254/

I have seen several non-Judges that came Carosuel Red from the factory. I have even seen one Ram Air III 4spd NON-Judge that was painted Carousel Red!! this car cost more than a Judge and came without the spoiler and poverty hubcaps. Go figure.

Diego

Interesting, as initially you said that Carousel Red was "a special order color on any 69 Pontiac" and I said that's not true. So now you post something that agrees with what I was saying?

"Special-order" means just that. It's no different than a Plum Crazy 4-4-2 convertible.

TK-65

Yes it was a special order color on any Pontiac, Mattison said so. You disagree with what I posted and are calling Jim Mattison a liar.

How did you get that I posted something that agrees with you?

MDchanic

Diego, how can you read this:
and this:
and then say this:
He says it's a special order color, you say it's a special order color - looks like you both agree that it's a special order color.

Can't we just all agree it's a special order color and move on?

- Eric

Diego

It was an RPO color for the Firebird, and Mattison's quote backs that up:

"Carousel Red ("T" or 72) was available ...[on] the Judge and some Firebirds.

TK-65

Production color on Judge and Firebird, special on any other Pontiac including GTO. Are you happy now?

In the end I could buy two GTOs, one Judge and another non Judge and they could both be Carousel Red.

Diego

I could buy a 4-4-2 and a Challenger and they could both be Plum Crazy.

stevengerard

I think this thread is now Plum Crazy

Intragration

I had previously responded to this erroneous post:

I argued against this. Judges are NOT a step up from the W-30, and the W-30 is NOT just an engine option. In response we saw engine charts showing the W-30 PACKAGE opposing Pontiac ENGINES, questions about F-bodies, comments about Rallye 350s, and other assorted dithering...but no evidence to support your erroneous point. And so I stand by my previous posts. If by re-reading previous posts you are able to now understand what I'm saying, or if you have evidence that shows I was mistaken, I'd be very interested to see it, and would also be happy to answer any questions you have. If not, I'm done, there's nothing more to be discussed without facts to the contrary, and further questions about unrelated topics are just a distraction from the correction of your erroneous point.

Steve-Hoog

They are all awesome cars and I would be happy to have any of those being discussed in my garage. Honestly I'm having trouble wanting to enter this debate; one it's Christmas time and drama seems a shame, but two I can't really see a clear angle here. Maybe it's because I don't want to get my head into this "Plum Crazy" matter. I liked that analogy

Also I can't speak intelligently about the W-30 and HO, Judges would be my only area of good knowledge.

One thing I would like to inject. Does it really matter if each performance option was available on a regular GTO? Ordering a Judge did force performance options to the car; it is not just a stripe and spoiler option, there are true horsepower adds with the Judge option. Are some of you discounting the Judge because the performance options are not exclusive? If you are then what is there to say; it is what it was and no one can change any of that. In my personal opinion this fact makes for some very interesting car combinations; base GTO’s with either Ram Air engine are rare and some consider even more collectable than the Judges. The reason is that ever single Judge has Ram Air; very few base GTO’s have Ram Air.

Olds_71_442

No one is completely discounting the the horsepower additions. Basically, someone stated that the Judge was a whole different car whereas the W30 442 was basically the same car as a regular 442 with a horsepower upgrade. But to be honest, they are the exact same thing. Both have horsepower upgrades and fancier appearance packages. That's what the whole argument is about. The whole thread has moved away from the convertible that is for sale to an argument to whether the W30 and the Judge are similar or not.

ent72olds

What would a '70 W-30 in Nugget Gold be considered? Isn't that a "special order" color? Is that now comparable to a Judge? You could even get the wing on the decklid.....special engine exclusive to the w-30, special paint and stripes, wing and hood with OAI, performance upgrades(ie w-27), and a w-30 specific emblem........Judge....special engine(could be had in a GTO), wing, stripes, stickers(The Judge), Ram Air, special order colors.....now I lost my train of thought.....Oh yeah...."a big step up from a W-30"....maybe in the collector's eyes, and Diego can tell me if I'm wrong, but, I think that's where this started, and what he meant. Identity in the collector's eyes, and that is proven in the $ a judge will bring over a w-30. Now, if that is not what Diego meant, I have to disagree....the w-30 and Judge are comparable.....I do love this thread and spirited debate.....

gearheads78

As much as you like to argue some of you should be lawyers.

Diego

An issue of semantics that has been discussed before, it's an extra-cost RPO color. "Special-order" implies a color that wasn't RPO.

Steve-Hoog

I remember this statement; I just don't know enough about the W-30 to get in the middle of this.

One thing that is a God send to our Pontiac Hobby is our very easy access to original invoices that can prove and disprove any deceptions or answer any questions. So for example you find any 69 body out in the woods that all orginality is gone and you have no clue what you have. A micro example is all 69 GTO steering column bracing was drilled for the bolts that hold on the Ram Air **** bracket, so you can't even take something so simple as a strong clue. But what you can do with the VIN number is find out in a matter of hours what the car left the factory with from Pontiac Historical Society. I personally got my Invoice directly from Pontiac back in the day via Fred Simmons of which several others did as well; but now we have an offcial public outlet for this information.

So now let me bring this back around to the OP. Here we have a very nasty looking GTO convertible that without this Invoice option we have; this car would be consider a huge risk to say the least. Of course it would take a ton of money to restore it; but if you were going to undertake this without even knowing if it was a real Judge, IMO the value of these cars would be greatly decreased.

I will tell you right now I am not in this for the money; but many are and that is why the value of these cars is higher than the average person like me would ever pay. There has always been a more visable interest in Pontiacs; why I don't know. Even in my High School days I can remember the Pontiacs out numbered the Olds cars 10:1. But you can also look at the fact the Chevy guys easily out number the Pontiac guys 10:1. Yet again the Chevy guys don't have access to the Invoices like Pontiac guys; so again this could be considered a huge factor in the value of Pontiacs. It's really a combination of factors; not just one thing like whose option meant more.

Three days to go on the Judge and we shall find out one if it sells and two for how much If the auction ends well; who knows we might be able to talk the seller into loading up and HO next.

Just for my information; what do the HO's go for? I have no clue! Say for example a very nice original Numbers Match and then a base start point like the one with no hood in the picture.

Olds_71_442

I believe he was speaking about the identity. He said the W30 was just an engine upgrade while the Judge was a different car. Which is not how most of us see it.

I also agree on the spirited debate. That's what makes forums and message boards fun. As long as it doesn't turn into name calling.

allyolds68

Restored H/O's have been going for $50-80 for a 68 and $65-85 for a 69.

GTO's always have been and probably always will be more popular and therefore more desireable. That makes them worth more money.

PHS tells any Joe right away if the car is legit. (well at least if the VIN hasn't been tampered with). It certainly makes it easier to buy a GTO than an Olds

There's probably not more than 5% of the 68-69 W30's that have any paperwork. Those still don't bring crazy money. Rare does not equal desireable

Olds_71_442

I don't think rareness has anything to do with the popularity of the 69 GTO or the GTO Judge. For one.....the name GTO Judge is very badass. I love that name. And whenever you talk to someone about muscle cars and they don't have a huge knowledge of the cars themselves, the first thing they say is...."I'd love to have a 69 GTO Judge." Almost every time, that's the comment I hear.

1969w3155

Sorry Diego, yours is a matter of opinion, and the argument that the W30 is not the "difference" on the 442, that the Judge is to the GTO has no merit. You are not always right. To chide someone else's stand on the matter, as that they don't get it or willing to understand, is lame and arrogant.

L69

The Judge was originally just an appearance package. It did come mandatory with I believe Ram Air3. Funny thing is you get 48 heads for a ram air three car auto or stick and also 48 heads on a non ram air 3 4 speed car. I owned a 69 GTO 4 speed years ago and I remember reading that in a Pontiac book. Other then the heads which were still square port the Ram Air 3 was an upgraded cam and 48 heads. So basically the judge was a Ram Air 3 GTO with decals and a spoiler that they claimed helped with down force at higher speeds. I would much rather have my W30.

Diego

Um, no.

1. Did I ever claim I was always right? Or am I merely the David in a forum full of Goliaths?

2. If you look at the post that preceding my "chiding" you will notice:

Sammy - "I do not get it...."

Intagration - "If the difference can only be put into terms of blue-chip muscle car auctions, then you can probably just stop because I won't get it."

So how is that I am arrogant? Listen, if you aren't interested in having fun, go follow another thread, but I certainly don't have to tolerate BS characterizations by someone who, um, doesn't get it.

Steve-Hoog

Ram Air brought this to the table on 69.

1. Specific Hood, the under bracing was different
2. Specific Scoops
3. Specific Air Cleaner Base and Lid
4. Supporting metal pan and small parts to operate the flaps and funnel the air flow
5. Interior **** bracket and cable
6. Specific Carb
7. Specific Distributor
8. Specific Cam
9. Specific Log High Performace Exhaust Manifolds
10. Not always but sometimes a 4 bolt main block

Ram Air IV went even further including all of the above and then some
1. Specific IV Carb Distributor Cam
2. Round Port Heads
3. Specific Valves, Springs, and Pushrods
4. 4 Bolt Main
5. Specific IV Log High Performace Exhaust Manifolds
6. Specific IV Air Cleaner Base

That's the 101 and I might have missed a couple of things; but that will give you a good base for those that didn't know.

Intragration

I admit what I don't get, which in this case is, why there is a market that drives rusted out hulks to sell for ridiculous amounts of money. This is a value judgment, and I concede that people are free to pay whatever they want for things, I just think it's kooky.
　
What I DO get are the plain facts that the Judge is NOT a big step up from a W-30 in automotive terms, and that the W-30 is NOT just an engine, both things that Diego incorrectly stated were true. Diego was wrong on these things, stands by his incorrect assertions, won't provide any evidence to the contrary, and won't admit that he's wrong. And so I wait.

Diego

Mike, hereby known as Integration, goes on record stating that an engine package is akin to a package that completely changes the image of the Pontiac GTO into The Judge, a be-spoilered and -striped vehicle with a dumb name but a aggressive disposition. The Judge had few equals in 1969, among them the Hurst/Olds, Cyclone Spoiler, and Cougar Eliminator. To characterize the W-30 package as an equal to the Judge package - as Integration asserts - is patently incorrect, yet he continues to state these falsehood despite being shown proof to the contrary.

Case dismissed.

1969w3155

I do have fun, I do get, I WILL NOT go to another forum, you are full of the BS, as you criticize every one who disagrees with you, and if you can't tolerate what you routinely throw at everone else,...then please leave, and post your **** elsewhere. AS I stated: arrogant!!!

Intragration

The W-30 wasn't just an engine, there were other W-30-specific modifications to the car, along with W-30-specific hardware, options, and markings that identify it externally as a W-30. The Judge received hardware upgrades that were available on a GTO, along with markings that identify it externally as a Judge. I believe this is true, others here believe it is true, all sources point to this being true, and not a single shred of evidence to the contrary has been presented.

The case doesn't have to close, it can remain open eternally, so that for the rest of time, people can seek out for themselves the facts that are freely available to show that Diego is wrong. Diego won't admit that he's wrong, he won't provide any evidence that he's wrong, he will only misdirect in order to take the emphasis off the fact that he is wrong. In this case, he says "case closed" to make you think that he has made an argument, but he hasn't. He can't back up his case because there are no facts to back it up.

Still waiting...

Troys Toy 70

For other more silent members that have been following this thread. I for one appreciate your comments on info on the GTO's/Judge. Thank you for your imput, and I have learned alot once we have gotten past the is it different or is it not stage.

For me, a 69 Judge is much more noticable than a 69 W-30 and would be more equal to the 69 HO. Now when we move one year ahead to the 70 model year, then I say the Judge is no more distintive than the W-30. Part of what has fueled this forum is the fact that GM seldem held to its exclusitivy of these options in the option packages. IE... a Cutlass or 442 could have many, not all, of the options a W-30 came with, and from the sound of it Pontiac did the same for the GTO and Judge, only with more options. This makes it harder to distinguish to the average enthusiest. However, Pontiac did a much better job of advertising and name recognition at the end of the day

Diego

Funny, because yesterday a member here said, "You are too nice Diego. I find your kindness refreshing in this day and age. Happy motoring my man."

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/483860-post43.html

You should let the rest of us have our fun while you pound sand.

Steve-Hoog

If anyone is further interested to study the Judge; here is the Pontiac order form the Dealer would fill out.

http://www.428gto.com/gto/69aorderform.pdf

As you will see Judge is never mentioned on the form; to order a Judge you hand wrote a UPC Code in that little square on the lower left. That forced the Judge options to the car and you then continued to follow the rules for the rest of the car. Obviously the Dealer could make easy mistakes in this process and the Pontiac Office usually sorted this out with a follow up phone call to the dealer.

aliensatemybuick

And here I was hoping Diego's "case dismissed" closing one post back meant he was done bloviating. Sure sounded like a denouement to me.

sammy

Actually, I really did not understand Intagration' point, and when he responded , I learned and said got it...One of the most dangerous things in the conveyance of a language is taking it out of CONTEXT. Please, keep me out of it........

Steve-Hoog

How about everyone backs off one step, drink a Christmas beer, and come back to the table with a smile?