gearheads78

What is this thing worth after you put another 50K in restoration costs.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-...item2c6a721a16

tru-blue 442

That's insane!
Reserve not met? Ha ha, what a pos.
Still he is gonna make some nice bank on it.
Poncho boys are crazy, I don't get it.

WhatIf

The last few that went through Mecum Auctions went for $182,000 and $225,000 back in 2010 when the economy was at its lowest.

This isn't a Ram Air 4 model. If it were it would be over $400,000.

Its crazy but they're worth what they're worth.

Intragration

I feel bad that decent, plain old cars are going to be cut up to fix this heap. I've grown to despise actual "muscle cars" for this reason.

J-(Chicago)

amen.

J-(Chicago)

My car has a P.O.S. certificate from G.M.'s Oldsmobile corporate division certifying that It is and always will be a worthless, lame duck.

sammy

I do not get it....I fix up a mus le car and I am wrecking other plain cars?

Ted

Intragration

If you're cutting decent plain old cars up to fix up your muscle car, then yes, you're wrecking decent plain old cars. If you're buying repop patch panels and cutting pieces off of rusty old hoods and welding them on, then you're not.

WhatIf

Don't forget, if you buy cheap repro parts, your also supporting the Taiwan / Chinese trade because nearly every single body part that's reproduced now is from Taiwan. Isnt that strange that we try to restore classic cars, classic American cars, and we have to rely on body parts coming from Taiwan.

Hurst/Olds 73/74

Best solution: Buy good south or southwest sheetmetal from cars that are wrecked or otherwise worn out and already parted-out junkyard fodder for your resto projects. Don't destroy a nice survivor base model to restore your rare musclecar if possible.

stevengerard

my guess it will need closer to 100k of work but in the end it will still be worth 200k+ to someone. Takes money to make money

gearheads78

I never really paid attention to Poncho prices other than run of the mill lemans, gto and firebirds. I guess the Judge is the w30 of the Pontiac world?

Is the double stamp story legit?

sammy

Got it....

dfire25

28 bids and its at $45300.00 with reserve not met! Holy CR%#!!!

MDchanic

I'm sorry, but when all you need is a set of steel punch-stamps and a computer printer to make a car worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, that's where I get off.

Whether it's these, or the Chev. SS's, this is just ridiculous.

- Eric

droptopron

I don't see that car being restored for $50K.

Eddie Hansen

[QUOTE=gearheads78;482352]I never really paid attention to Poncho prices other than run of the mill lemans, gto and firebirds. I guess the Judge is the w30 of the Pontiac world?QUOTE]


I had a 69 GTO convertible 4 speed before I had my Oldsmobile, I actually love GTO's and I have had a few ponchos in my time, I bought my 442 because I couldn't find another 4 speed GTO convertible at the time ( no internet remember) and the only car I ever lost to in a stop light war was a 442 so I said what the heck

But I digress, the judge was suppose to be like a roadrunner, sort of stripped down version of the GTO, no trim rings etc, I don't think it ever panned out like that but that was the intention, I guess the rallye350 would be more like it..

but today as said they are the uber rare versions, like the w-30's, ram air forget about it, I bought my 69 gto for 600 bucks, from original owner, glove box even had the receipt from a dynotune at motion from day one, owned by my insurance lady, had wider rims but spoked hubcaps!!! love that ride....

Jaybird

An unscrupulous person could purchase a replacement engine and re-stamp the heads, etc. and remanufacture their own original unmolested survivor.
They could then put the thing up for auction and let someone with too much money and time on his hands purchase a fake ride.
I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Olds_71_442

I have a close friend who has a correct engine for that car. I'm not sure what his exact price is, but I do know it's less than $1000 for the engine. And it runs. He had it in his Trans Am, thinking it was a 455. He got the code checked and it was a 400 from a 69 GTO.

kjr442

About two months ago or so a friend of mine found a 1970 GTO Judge hard top with a four speed,all numbers matching for 6000.00 right here in Duncanville Tx, So far he has turned down 35000,00 unrestored. This one came with AC and a steering wheel that is real rare. If I remember correctly I think he said it was one of 35 cars built with AC and 4speed. Oh and it was listed on Craig's list as a G T O.
This is the same guy that found a Daytona for 700.00 and sold it on Ebay For 48000.00 I doubted his story until he pulled the story up on the Mopar site. The only thing this car had that was good was the wing , and the Vin number with body tag. House fires play hell on cars.

oldspackrat

I have a very nice '69 GTO convertible that my great grandfather ordered new. He ordered the optional Ram Air III engine which is standard in the Judge. Mine also has a black top & interior, bench seat, disc brakes, tach & gauges & a few other options. It also has all original body panels, conv. top, complete drive train & runs, drives & looks great. I'd guess it would bring between $35,000.00 & $60,000.00 depending on where you take it. Too bad he didn't check off the Judge option when new, it'd be worth a ton more. Crazy stuff.

http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/a...0-45-50_43.jpg

MDchanic

Yeah, that IS crazy, and exactly my point.

If he had checked the box for "Judge" on one piece of paper, and the option code for "judge" had been printed on another piece of paper, the exact same car would have been worth crazy money, just because of a piece of paper.
Notice I said "crazy."

- Eric

Diego

I'm surprised participants of the BOP brigade don't know much about this car.

Only 108 Judge ragtops were built in 1969. 103 were RAIII, 5 were RAIV; this is the former. Judge ragtops have been blue chip collectibles for quite some time, and they are a big step up from a W-30, which was just an engine option and nothing that changed the identity of the car like the Judge. Most Judge hardtops were Carousel Red but the convertibles seem to be a decent mix of all the colors, likely due to the fact the first couple thousand Judges were Carousel Red for marketing purposes (I think they call them "pattern" cars). Off the top of my head, 29 Judge ragtops were RAIII/auto, and this one is a column auto to boot. It also is notable for having practically no options.

So I gotta wonder why someone would cheer for an Olds as its price heads for the stratosphere, but when it's Brand X, they're on crack? Ya gotta understand the Judge market and supply and demand to see that this car will be a $150,000 car when restored, so my predicting is that the price will be determined by the guy who has the ability and means to do the work himself because not many people are gonna spend bank for a column auto Judge ragtop . . . but it's still a blue chip car all the same.

To kjr442: I have production numbers for RAIII 4-speed AC cars and they made much more than 35 cars.

MDchanic

I'm on record somewhere or other as having said they're all on crack.

- Eric

kjr442

I really don't know, it's what he was told by some other Judge freak. This one is red inside and out bucket seats, hood tach, trunk wing, and ram air. I will talk to him again about the numbers, but he did get it authenticated by Pontiac.

Diego

It's all good.

Regarding the 1970 RAIII AC stick combo, I have 452 GTO hardtops including Judges with that combo. I also have 791 Judges with AC, which includes automatic. I don't seem to have anything that shows the combo of the two.

Intragration

I don't know man, the W-30 was a lot more than an engine option, and the Judge was basically an appearance option with some stickers, missing trim rings and wider tires. This is what blows my mind. But hey, some people perceive the Judge to be a desirable option that happens to be more rare than a W-30, and so they are willing to fork over big wads of cash for it. I wish them luck.

Diego

The W-30 was a performance package with the same identity as the base 4-4-2 in most years. The Judge, on the other hand, had a standard engine more powerful than the base GTO's standard motor.

Would you think the Buick GSX was an appearance option with some stickers, fancy mags and a spoiler? Olds had no equal other than the Hurst/Olds, and the H/O ragtops are a whole different ball game, akin to a RAIV Judge, which is a $600,000 car.

Intragration

I was under the mistaken impression that the Judge came with the same base motor as the GTO, and any motor that could be had in a Judge could also be had in a GTO. I'm pretty sure the W-30 had a unique motor and also came with OAI, weight reduction, chassis stiffening, and had other options available that were unavailable in non-W-30s. My main point was that, in automotive terms, if the Judge is a change in identity over the GTO, then a W-30 is also a change in identity over the 442. In terms of rarity and what people are paying for the cars, I can't disagree.

Diego

The W-30 is not a change in identity over a base 4-4-2. Sure, in 1970-72 they had thicker side stripes, but it's still a 4-4-2. Do you think a Hemi changed the identity of a Road Runner? Nope, just the same ol' Road Runner. What about a Stage 1 GS? Nope, just another Gran Sport. The GSX, on the other hand, had a different identity.

Optional engines (and the optional equipment they required) didn't change the identity of the car, hence the W-30 is simply a 4-4-2 with the top motor. You're making a stretch in trying to make something an equivalent to the Judge, and that simply ain't the case. The Judge was the ultimate performance car in Pontiac's mind, much like the Hurst/Olds was in Oldsmobile's mind and the Cyclone Spoiler was in Mercury's mind - badass cars with scoops and spoilers and stripes, needing nothing but a driver with a twitchy right foot.

Mr Shifty Sidney

Also with the Pontiacs, they can be verified through Pontiac. Our W-30's on the other hand are harder to document. Unless they are Canada cars, W-30s mostly rely on original paper work to authenticate. Thus the reason a W-30 with paperwork will bring considerably more money than a W-30 without.

Don W

Intragration

HOW is the Judge a "change in identity" over the base GTO in a way that a W-30 is not a change over a base 442? I think the stretch is in making the Judge out to be more than it is. Both the Judge and the W-30 were option packages, were they not? (the GSX was too) Both cars had the same body codes. Both had miscellaneous modifications that differentiated them from the base cars. The W-30 started life as an NHRA drag-specific package in 1966. The Judge was a marketing response to the Plymouth Roadrunner in 1969. Other than slightly wider tires on the Judge and minor differences in the motors, I'm not seeing any real functional difference between the two. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm asking for the information to show me where they're different in a way that an automotive enthusiast would care. If the difference can only be put into terms of blue-chip muscle car auctions, then you can probably just stop because I won't get it. But it's all good, I still like cool cars, and I appreciate that Pontiac guys feel an affinity for their mark the same way Oldsmobile guys do.

Aceshigh

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...omparison.html

That's not all ......then there's the inferiority of OER parts vs OEM parts.
You should ALWAYS source fenders or any body parts off an existing junker if you can IMO.

OER is cheap thin junk not built to the same standards as the ORIGINAL steel was.

stevengerard

I think the Judge is an awesome car and understand it being where it is in the case of its rarity. But I also think the W30 is different, yes you could order the OAI on a base 442 but it came stock on a W30, you could not order a W30 engine in a 442 without choosing the W30 option. I don't know for sure but couldn't you order any of the ram air engines in a base GTO? The GSX was no better a performance car than a GS IIRC but none-the-less much rarer. I wouldn't turn down the opportunity to own any of these cars.

Octania

VIN: 242679B166725 | See the full History Report
Year: 1969 Exterior Color: CAROUSEL RED
Make: Pontiac Interior Color: Black
Model: GTO Transmission: Automatic
Trim: JUDGE CONVERTIBLE Body Type: Convertible
Engine: RAM AIR 3 400 Warranty: NO WARRANTY OF ANY TYPE
Drive Type: AUTOMATIC Vehicle Title: Clear
Mileage: 56,012 For Sale By: OWNER


PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE LISTING AS IT CONTAINS IMPORTANT INFO ON PAYMENT ETC..
1969 GTO JUDGE CONVERTIBLE.
THIS IS A REAL DEAL JUDGE CONVERTIBLE. IT HAS THE PONTIAC HISTORICAL SERVICES ( PHS ) SHEET TO PROVE THE AUTHENTICITY OF IT.
IT IS ONE OF ONLY 108 BUILT IN 1969.
HISTORY THAT I KNOW OF THE CAR IS AS FOLLOWS:
I BOUGHT THIS CAR MANY YEARS AGO WHEN A GUY ANSWERED A WANTED TO BUY AD THAT I HAD PLACED LOOKING FOR JUDGE CONVERTIBLES. HE SAID HE DIDNT HAVE ONE, BUT GROWING UP THE NEIGHBORS BEHIND HIS PARENTS HOUSE HAD BOUGHT ONE NEW AND AFTER A FEW YEARS PARKED IT BEHIND THEIR HOUSE AND COVERED IT WITH A TARP AND IT HAD BEEN SITTING EVER SINCE. HE SAID HE WOULD BE BACK IN HIS PARENTS TOWN IN A FEW WEEKS AND WOULD LOOK AT IT AND SEE IF THEY WOULD SELL IT. WHEN HE GOT THERE HE CALLED ME AND SAID HE HAD BOUGHT IT AND WOULD BE WILLING TO SELL IT TO ME. HE TOLD ME THEY TOLD HIM THAT THEY HAD AN ACCIDENT IN IT AND HAD TO PUT ONE FENDER AND A FRONT END ON IT (NOSE AND SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY THE FRONT VALANCE TURNED UP MISSING AND IS NOT ON IT NOW). THEY HAD IT REPAINTED BLUE AND INSTALLED CUSTOM BLUE **** CARPET AND REPLACED THE BENCH SEAT WITH BUCKET SEATS. THEY SAID THAT THE ENGINE BLEW AND THEY INSTALLED ANOTHER ONE AND IT DIDNT RUN GOOD SO THEY PARKED IT AND IT NEVER MOVED AGAIN. WE AGREED ON A PRICE AND I SENT THE MONEY AND HAD IT SHIPPED TO ME. WHEN IT ARRIVED I PUT IT IN A WAREHOUSE AND IT NEVER MOVED UNTIL NOW WHEN I BROUGHT IT HOME TO SELL IT.
DETAILS OF THE CAR ARE:
IT IS AN ORIGINAL PAINT CODE 72 CAROUSEL RED (ORANGE) WITH CODE B BLACK CONVERTIBLE TOP WITH CODE 268 BLACK BENCH SEAT INTERIOR.
IT HAS THE NUMBERS MATCHING " PQ " AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION STILL IN IT AND IT DOESNT LOOK TO HAVE EVER BEEN REMOVED. I CLEANED THE GREASE OFF OF IT TO CHECK THE NUMBERS AND THEY APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN DOUBLE STAMPED FROM THE FACTORY. ALOT OF PONTIACS HAVE THIS DONE ON THE ENGINE AND TRANS FOR SOME REASON. I WILL BE HAPPY TO SEND A PICTURE TO SHOW THIS AND YOU CAN SEE THE ORIGINAL GREASE AND DIRT AND IT IS NOT A RESTAMP. THE TAG ON THE SIDE HAS THE " PQ "
THERE IS NO ENGINE IN THE COMPARTMENT AT ALL. WHAT I HAVE OF IT IS:
THE HEADS ARE CASTING " 48 " AND HAVE DATES OF K308
THE INTAKE MANIFOLD IS CASTING 9794234 AND HAS A DATE OF K168
(THESE DATES CORRESPOND TO BALTIMORE BUILT CARS)
RAM AIR EXHAUST MANIFOLDS CASTING 9797072 - R AND 9791637 L
THE UPPER RAM AIR PAN IS IN NICE CONDITION AND STILL HAS THE ACTUATORS ON IT AND IT IS STILL ATTACHED TO THE HOOD.
FLAPPERS ARE IN THE TRUNK (PROBABLY REMOVED WHEN THE CAR WAS FIXED FROM THE WRECK ???
LOWER RAM AIR PAN IS IN THE TRUNK AND THE LID IS DENTED. IT LOOKED AS IF SOMEONE PUT A HEAD ON TOP OF IT.
RAM AIR PULL CABLE IS STILL ATTACHED UNDER THE DASH
THE RADIATOR IS IN THE TRUNK AND HAS THE TAG ON IT WITH THE NUMBERS IA-BS XI 28
POWER STEERING PUMP IS STILL ATTACHED TO THE GEAR BOX
IT HAS ALL 4 " JA " STAMPED WHEELS. 3 ARE DATED 1-15-9 AND ONE IS DATED 11-12-8 (IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN REPLACED WHEN THEY HAD THE ACCIDENT WHO KNOWS I DONT)
HAS ALL 4 OF THE ORIGINAL BLACK CENTER PMD CENTER CAPS
THE SPEEDO SHOWS 56K MILES AND IS SUPPOSED TO BE ORIGINAL. HOWEVER, I WAS NEVER PROVIDED WITH ANY DOCUMENTATION TO BACK IT UP
THE CAR NEEDS A TOTAL RESTORATION. THERE IS RUST IN ALL OF THE PANELS OF SOME TYPE. SURPRISINGLY THE TRUNK FLOOR , FLOOR PANS AND FRAME ARE NOT ROTTED COMPLETELY AWAY LIKE YOU WOULD THINK. THE PASSENGER FRONT FLOOR PAN HAS THE WORST HOLE AND IT LOOKS LIKE THE HEATER CORE OR THE TOP LEAKED. THE FRAME IS NOT SCALING AND APPEARS TO BE REALLY SOLID EXCEPT FOR THE PASSENGER SIDE AT THE FRONT. IN THE PICTURE YOU HAVE TO LOOK CLOSE TO SEE THE RUST STARTING, MOST OF WHAT IS ON THERE IS DIRT. (FOR SERIOUS BUYERS I WILL BE HAPPY TO SEND GOOD PICS OF THIS AND ANYTHING ELSE OF CONCERN). ALL OF THE GLASS IS GOOD. THE DOORS OPEN AND SHUT SMOOTHLY. THE DRIVERS OUTSIDE DOOR HANDLE IS GETTING HARD TO OPEN AND I HAVE HAD TO OPEN IT FROM THE INSIDE A FEW TIMES. THE TRUNK OPENS AND SHUTS SMOOTHLY. THE SPOILER APPEARS TO BE IN GOOD CONDITION. THE JUDGE GLOVEBOX EMBLEM IS GOOD. THE GLOVEBOX DOOR IS MISSING THE KEY LATCH. MISSING THE ORIGINAL RADIO. THE CAR ROLLS AROUND VERY EASILY AND THE TIRES STILL HOLD AIR (UNBELIEVABLE). THE BRAKES STILL STOP THE CAR.
THE CAR HAS A CLEAR TITLE IN MY NAME AND THE LAST TIME IT WAS UPDATED WAS IN THE EARLY 90'S.
EMAIL ME WITH ANY QUESTIONS AT dcllc@olp.net WITH SPECIFIC REQUEST.
YOU CAN CALL ME AT 918-250-3942

z11375ss

Restore? The stickers are fine!

Diego

Standard 1969 4-4-2
400/350 (325 with automatic)
400/360 W-30

1969 Hurst/Olds
455/380

Standard 1969 GTO
400/350
400/265
400/366 Ram Air III
400/366 Ram Air IV

1969 GTO Judge
400/366 Ram Air III
400/366 Ram Air IV

You are comparing an engine upgrade with a completely different identity.

Raivjudge

Pontiac guys are nuts.... I am really an Oldsmobile guy who wanted something different. Luckily I got mine before anyone cared about them too much. Like others mentioned, Being about to document what option the came with from the factory is a big factor in keeping the values up. BTW, Judge package is spoilers and stickers. You could order the baddest RAIV in a Non-Judge GTO.

Mike

marxjunk

what puts the car over the top is... well...the top..the convert makes it wanted by hardcore GTO people..plain and simple..if it was a RA IV car...it would have hit 60-70 G's pretty easy...more if the RA IV was there...

who really cares...if you dont get "IT" you wont...

Intragration

You haven't given anything that shows how a Judge has a "completely different identity" and a W-30 doesn't, except to say that it is so. A Judge is an option package on a GTO, a W-30 is an option package on a 442. Any motor that could be had in a Judge could be had in a GTO. Some specific items including the W-30 engine were ONLY available on the W-30. This gives the W-30 MORE of a unique identity that differentiates it over a 442 than a Judge does over a GTO. This is what I figured, I thought I might have been missing something. As for the whole $50-grand for a rusty hulk thing, I'm not going to get that, and that's fine.