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A co-worker and I were discussing the headaches of today’s diesel engines. It definitely reminds me of the “dark” years of the auto industry. Let me explain.
Years ago, everyone enjoyed poweful
cars that were easy to maintain and repair. Then the Federal Clean Air Act changed all that, suddenly cars became electrical nightmare, a maze of vacuum hoses, lousy performance and driveability, and a huge learning curve for both automakers and the repair industry. And if you were caught tampering with that stuff, you could expect heavy fines.
Eventually, the automakers figured out how to have clean air and performance at the same time. People in the service industry learned how to work with and repair computer controlled cars. Life was pretty good for gearheads.
Now let’s compare diesel trucks. The old 5.9 Cummins and 7.3 powerstrokes were fairly easy to work on, very easy to tune and modify, and were very reliable. Then the EPA got involved and started mandating EGR systems, DEF systems, all kinds of emissions crap that creates major maintenance and warranty issues, and expect heavy fines if you remove that crap. Sound familiar?
Im wondering how long it will be before automakers figure out how to have power, clean air, and reliability again, just like with cars.
Interestingly, when I learned automotive technology in college there was a push to standardize computer controls. OBD 2's first year for Oldsmobile was 95. Now, the computers in cars are so advanced that you need a proprietary scanner to diagnose them. Plus, if the computer doesn't call out a fault you can forget about a local technician troubleshooting an intermittent problem.
This is a subject I'm very well versed in. I won't provide specifics but I'm an engineer in the auto industry and have developed components for commercial ("diesel") applications for about 25 years. Every 3-ish years since the early 2000's there have been updated federal standards mandated that affect the modern diesel engine. It drives 'innovation' cycles as manufacturers and suppliers have to constantly develop more complicated technologies to meet the upcoming targets.
As you mention, the diesel market was left pretty much alone for years as the passenger car market (gasoline in N.A.) was wrung out to the choking point. Not any more. You're absolutely right, the modern diesel engine is a relative nightmare in cost and complexity compared to its simple (easy to maintain and operate) father/grandfather. And just so no corner of the market is left out, things like lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed whackers, etc. are all now under the same heavy regulatory thumb. That's why 2-strokes are gone from the market and even small 4-strokes are 'lean-burn', etc. Nuts.
To close the circle, ask yourself why so many manufacturers have completely jumped into the electrification market, abandoning their 'traditional' technologies. It's not so much because their customers are demanding it, they see a pretty easy back-door to get off the regulation merry-go-round that comes with internal combustion. The consumer is left with little to no choice in the matter.
Forget any romantic notion of free markets. Government ultimately gets what it wants.
When does a company wake up and act independently? Rarely. One good current example is Chrysler (Stellantis) bringing the Gen3 Hemi back from the dead. The only business Chrysler really has (ignore Jeep) is Ram and the Charger/Challenger. They found out real fast that their core customers would not accept neutered next gen versions of these vehicles so Chrysler had a decision to make; stick with the electrification/downsizing plan and ride the company into bankruptcy or drag back out what their customers want. In my opinion, they've made the right decision. At least in the current climate.
Apologies for the long-winded post. I could talk about this kind of stuff all day.
Interestingly, when I learned automotive technology in college there was a push to standardize computer controls. OBD 2's first year for Oldsmobile was 95. Now, the computers in cars are so advanced that you need a proprietary scanner to diagnose them. Plus, if the computer doesn't call out a fault you can forget about a local technician troubleshooting an intermittent problem.
Conceptually I agree with you regarding the complexity. However that is mainly due to corporate greed. The proprietary software forces shops to buy needlessly expensive software, consumers to not have easy access to the right to work on their own stuff, forces consumers into the dealer networks for repair and a host of other things related to closed loop processes.
I'd love to see some open source software initiatives for all vehicles.
The only way I would buy a new Diesel is one that was fairly old in the model cycle and was well represented in the pirate / delete community and wait till warranty was done then remove and recode that stuff out.
You guys can go ahead and provide me with the diesel in your tanks, the fluid in your transmissions and the oil in your differentials so I can keep driving my classic diesel once... you know what's going to happen.
The only way I would buy a new Diesel is one that was fairly old in the model cycle and was well represented in the pirate / delete community and wait till warranty was done then remove and recode that stuff out.
Im still driving my 06 Ram. Every now and then, I get new truck fever. However, the cost of them, and the potential headaches that go with them quickly brings me to reality.
My neighbor bought a at the time new 2019 Ram, it was in the shop frequently for emissions codes. As soon as the warranty was up, he deleted all that crap. lots more get up and go, and zero drivability complaints.
It’s frustrating, the EPA mandates this crap, the automakers have to develop new technologies to met the requirements, that cost gets passed onto the customer (resulting in the ridiculous sticker price) the new technology isn’t perfected or reliable, resulting in customers complaints and added warranty cost (which also get passed onto future customers) and if you delete that crap to make the truck run as expected, you risk fines or possibly being unable to register and drive the truck on public roads.
New diesel are terrible. I drive fuel truck for now. Constant DEF issues, some plugged particulate filters and many other electronic failures, including ECM's. I don't see it ever getting better. The Hemi coming back is a band aid. It needs updated again and the Pentastar as well. New vehicles are way too much and very hit and miss with multiple manufacturers having way too many, low mile engine failures. Even being burdened by very unreliable emission systems, big diesels rarely fail.
Yes there are delete kits. Yank the lean burning **** injected POS and install something older.
Nothing...NOTHING runs like a 2 stroke Detroit. Set the analog injectors and valves correctly and go pull a house off its foundation while rolling coal. No CEL lights for digging into the torque. That's the only governed power I want.
All my yard equipment has all the govt lean BS removed. Yes, I polish and port chain saws, and gut the mufflers.Then install a professional non-light-in-the- loafers chain and adjust A/F in wood. Now the saw actually works. Now nothing burns up because now its on the right side of stoic with a 36-40:1 mix.
You will never see me with anything meant to be gas, battery operated. Hate everything about it right down the stupid sounds. Fingernails on a chalkboard gag me with a pitch fork.
An older friend who is approaching 90, infamous statement is "older is better." He daily drives a nice 55 Bel Air. Think about that. Tools, appliances, cars, trucks, government, car parts, attitudes, bourbon, scotch.... all are better if older. Many reasons why. select one.
About the only thing this rule doesn't apply to is my girl friends. In that case a lean burn late model is preferred. Don't like the exhaust note on the older models.
I have no desire for modern diesel engines. EPA has ruined them and in my opinion, it is far worse than what happened to gas engines in the 80's. I just bought a rust free 2002 Chevy with the 8.1 engine and allison transmission. These trucks are good for 400,000 miles if you protect them from rusting out. I get 10 MPG hauling a car on the interstate but with diesel $1 more per gallon I spend the same amount on fuel but have 1000% less spent on repairs and maintenance costs.
There is more energy in a gallon of diesel then gas, this is where we "should" be going. Sadly, the black soot really freaks out the environmentalist so they are killing them.
x2 on Older is better. Buy Old! Thanks to help from this site, and I do appreciate it, I will be keeping my 2014 F-150 to its end, whenever that may be. OR, if I find a l-o-w mileage 2013 or 2014 F-150 I might be interested in it. One surfaced a few months ago with 17,xxx miles on it. I wasn't fast enough, it was sold within a day. Wonder why........
I have no desire for modern diesel engines. EPA has ruined them and in my opinion, it is far worse than what happened to gas engines in the 80's. I just bought a rust free 2002 Chevy with the 8.1 engine and allison transmission. These trucks are good for 400,000 miles if you protect them from rusting out. I get 10 MPG hauling a car on the interstate but with diesel $1 more per gallon I spend the same amount on fuel but have 1000% less spent on repairs and maintenance costs.
There is more energy in a gallon of diesel then gas, this is where we "should" be going. Sadly, the black soot really freaks out the environmentalist so they are killing them.
This hits close to home!!
I bought my first new truck in 1998. I wanted a 3/4 4x4 with a diesel, but couldn’t afford the almost 5k premium for the engine/transmission. So I suffered a few years with the underpowered 360 gas engine.
Fast forward a few years, with a little more disposable income, I finally traded the 98 in on a new 3/4 ton diesel. I got to enjoy the cheaper fuel and much better economy, for about a year. Then the diesel fuel tax went thru the roof. I don’t think diesel has been cheaper than gas since then.
I'm out of the new diesel game at this point. I haven't heard that they were suffering so many failures/problems these days. I have an 05 chevy with a duramax. It's been great with nearly 300k on it.
Apparently the ULSD has fewer lubricants in it than the old diesel. I've only owned my Ford truck for about 8 years so I never ran it on the old diesel. I can say without a doubt that ATF in a new fuel filter causes it to chatter less for a day or two though.
In fairness to the Clean Air Act air quality in the 60s and 70s really was terrible and something absolutely had to be done because it became dangerously unhealthy.
That said it's not so much the emissions mandates that killed performance by itself in the malaise era, it was the simultaneous tightening of these standards with the rapid increase in a different, unrelated mandate for fuel economy. It wasn't a coincidence that the 403 was dropped after 1979, because thats when the Iranian Revolution happened causing a huge spike in oil prices resulting in CAFE. If CAFE hadn't been implemented or been implemented in a much more reasonable pace then we wouldn't have had the 307. In addition to that GM had consultants predicting $3 a gallon gas ($6+ in today's dollars) by the mid 80s which had a big influence on their design decisions.
The issue with diesels is different because diesel is inherently a very dirty fuel unlike gasoline. It is much harder to make it burn cleaner as it likes to make sulfur dioxides and other nasty stuff.
Last edited by Olds64; Jun 12, 2025 at 04:56 PM.
Reason: No politics or religious discussion allowed.
Oh, I agree! I have seen video of California in the late 70s, it’s pretty obvious something needed to be done!!
With that in mind, it seems the EPA has gone way beyond what is needed. The regulations they have enacted hamper things here, for diminishing returns. The tiny gains here are negated by a huge margin due to far less environmentally friendly nations like China and India.
I’ll never understand the need for a Diesel unless you’re regularly towing in the 10,000 plus lb range.
diesel fuel here is through the roof, then the DEF bs and high maintenance costs and initial upfront price…maybe if you can write off some of that to your business..it don’t make sense. I also can’t stand the smell and noise of a diesel. Friends have brand new ones that stink like old ones and rattle themselves to death..they think it’s cool though
gas pickups these days can do everything a diesel can unless you’re hauling big weight daily.
my 4cyl 4x4 small pickup can tow 7,500 no problems..it actually hauls *** when loaded. I tow a full size enclosed car hauler and my skid steer on an open deck tandem trailer.
I’ll never understand the need for a Diesel unless you’re regularly towing in the 10,000 plus lb range.
diesel fuel here is through the roof, then the DEF bs and high maintenance costs and initial upfront price…maybe if you can write off some of that to your business..it don’t make sense. I also can’t stand the smell and noise of a diesel. Friends have brand new ones that stink like old ones and rattle themselves to death..they think it’s cool though
gas pickups these days can do everything a diesel can unless you’re hauling big weight daily.
my 4cyl 4x4 small pickup can tow 7,500 no problems..it actually hauls *** when loaded. I tow a full size enclosed car hauler and my skid steer on an open deck tandem trailer.
it has 387,000 kilometres on it. never been apart
All things being equal diesels are more efficient so in theory you'd get a fuel economy to horsepower advantage. This was the reason GM wanted to push them into the passenger car space in the late 70s, even though the attempt was badly fumbled.
One thing I have wondered, what modifications would have been needed to get the 350 DX diesel to made as powerful and reliable as a gas 350 from that time (~160HP) but have at least some of the fuel economy advantage. Would be an interesting project at some point.....
I’ll never understand the need for a Diesel unless you’re regularly towing in the 10,000 plus lb range.
diesel fuel here is through the roof, then the DEF bs and high maintenance costs and initial upfront price…maybe if you can write off some of that to your business..it don’t make sense. I also can’t stand the smell and noise of a diesel. Friends have brand new ones that stink like old ones and rattle themselves to death..they think it’s cool though
gas pickups these days can do everything a diesel can unless you’re hauling big weight daily.
my 4cyl 4x4 small pickup can tow 7,500 no problems..it actually hauls *** when loaded. I tow a full size enclosed car hauler and my skid steer on an open deck tandem trailer.
it has 387,000 kilometres on it. never been apart
No, they can’t. 7500 pounds is nothing. Put some real weight behind a truck and you will quickly learn to appreciate the torque of a diesel.
You didn’t mention what kind of truck it is, but a 7500 pound trailer behind a small 4 cylinder truck is nuts. You might be able to pull it, good luck stopping it or hauling it safely in less than ideal conditions.
I bought my first new truck in 1998. I wanted a 3/4 4x4 with a diesel, but couldn’t afford the almost 5k premium for the engine/transmission. So I suffered a few years with the underpowered 360 gas engine.
Fast forward a few years, with a little more disposable income, I finally traded the 98 in on a new 3/4 ton diesel. I got to enjoy the cheaper fuel and much better economy, for about a year. Then the diesel fuel tax went thru the roof. I don’t think diesel has been cheaper than gas since then.
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One thing I have wondered, what modifications would have been needed to get the 350 DX diesel to made as powerful and reliable as a gas 350 from that time (~160HP) but have at least some of the fuel economy advantage.
First, Oldsmobile should have put a water separator on their diesel cars. Second, head studs should have been used since they just re-engineered a gasoline engine to use diesel fuel. If they did those two things history may have been different.
First, Oldsmobile should have put a water separator on their diesel cars. Second, head studs should have been used since they just re-engineered a gasoline engine to use diesel fuel. If they did those two things history may have been different.
Yes that would make it much more reliable, but power output was really low at I believe only around 100hp, not much engine for the land yachts they were put in. So what could be done to boost the HP, while still giving it at least some fuel economy advantage?
Ford added a turbo charger to the 7.3l IDI in it's last year, 94. Turbo kits were available for the 7.3l & 6.9l IDIs before this. I don't think Ford ever put head studs on their International IDIs though. The 6.9l & 7.3l were much more robust than the Oldsmobile 5.7l diesel was (i.e. they used a timing gear and had 4 bolt main caps).
I think GM did the same thing to the Detroit diesels they used in trucks in later years.
I read somewhere that GM selected the olds due to the valve angles. It was easy to make the flat chamber head vs all the other engines in the line up. These were way before my time but I heard all the stories from my father...
All things being equal diesels are more efficient so in theory you'd get a fuel economy to horsepower advantage. This was the reason GM wanted to push them into the passenger car space in the late 70s, even though the attempt was badly fumbled.
One thing I have wondered, what modifications would have been needed to get the 350 DX diesel to made as powerful and reliable as a gas 350 from that time (~160HP) but have at least some of the fuel economy advantage. Would be an interesting project at some point.....
not sure about your claim of them being more efficient in small pickups. When I was looking for mine, I also looked at the GMC Canyon with the 2.8 duramax turbo diesel. Mine actually got better mileage ratings. the Canyon was only rated to tow 100 lbs more
my gas truck would smoke the canyon in acceleration tests, 270 hp vs 181
No, they can’t. 7500 pounds is nothing. Put some real weight behind a truck and you will quickly learn to appreciate the torque of a diesel.
You didn’t mention what kind of truck it is, but a 7500 pound trailer behind a small 4 cylinder truck is nuts. You might be able to pull it, good luck stopping it or hauling it safely in less than ideal conditions.
no they can’t what?
I don’t need anything to tow more than 7,500 when both my car hauler or my skid steer are under 7,000
shooting your mouth off about “real weight” means what? it’s my truck and my life. And no, 7,500 behind a truck rated for 7,500 isn’t nuts,, it’s perfect and tows beautifully, up long hills and keeping up with traffic no problem here, which is 110k/hr, or more.
it pulls from a dead stop like a champ with a fully loaded trailer.
