jaunty75

If you own one of these 2014 trucks, pay attention.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE


My favorite line from the article:

"GM said Friday it will recall 2014 Chevrolet Silverados and GMC Sierras to reprogram software that could lead to overheating of exhaust components, potentially causing engine compartment fires."

They're going to fix this by reprogramming software. No wrenches or screwdrivers needed. How times have changed. No shadetree mechanic is going to be restoring one of these trucks 40 years from now.

You know what's just around the corner? You won't have to take the truck in to the dealer to get this fixed. You'll download the fix onto a flash drive on your home computer and then plug the drive into a USB port on the truck and download the fix to the truck.

We do this now with modern televisions, many of which have USB ports on them so you can install firmware updates. Others have wireless built in so you can connect to your home network to watch Netflix or Hulu. Software updates can be transferred to the TV as well.


And you know what's just around the second corner? You won't have to do anything to get your truck fixed. Rather, the fix will be beamed by wireless directly from GM to your truck. All you need to do is get your truck near enough to a wireless network.

I can see it now. You could do this on your home wireless network, but if you don't have one, you pull into a Starbucks parking lot, connect your truck to their wireless network, then go inside and get yourself a cappuccino while your truck's software is updated and the recall issue is fixed.


As Bob Dylan said, times they are a changin'!

Koda

Dang, and I thought Fords had the market on fireballing.

DLaz70OLDS98

No the car companies will never allow them to be fixed without coming to the dealership so they can take more of your money and time. I write as I am sitting in the waiting room of the Ford dealer for my free oil change. Had I known it was going to be 2 plus hours I would have done it myself.

kjr442

I can see how someone could hack your car/truck and shut it off while driving down the road, or who knows make it run bad, or......

redoldsman

Maybe Ford hacked these trucks.

jaunty75

Not when it comes to recalls. Recall repairs are done free of charge. The manufacturers could save money if these problems could be fixed without the vehicles having to be brought to a dealer.

jaunty75

A good point, but I'm guessing that access to your vehicle's computer would be password protected.

But you still make a good point because password protection doesn't stop hackers. So maybe they won't go so far as to set up your vehicle for wireless communication, but I could still see manufacturers stopping one step short of this and putting USB ports on your vehicle's engine or dashboard so a software fix could be downloaded from a flash drive.

nsnarsk65cutlass

Ford already has USB ports on SYNC equipped vehicles.

jensenracing77

The transport refrigeration industry is already doing this. From my computer here at home I can turn on a refrigerator unit anywhere in the world that uses our system. I can change the setpoint, upgrade the software, tell you exactly where it is, what direction it is traveling..... I can even tell you what temperature it was inside the trailer at most any given time you want me to. I know if it is in heat or cool, you name it and i can likely figure it out. If the unit has a problem i can likely call the nearest service mechanic and tell him what parts to take to repair it. I know the auto industry can make something like this if they wanted to or had the need to.

jaunty75

Good point. Although Sync, as I understand it, is mostly for things like hands-free phone calls, navigation, music, traffic, and things like that, it does have a "vehicle health report" function and other, similar apps. That's just a half-step away from having it go two ways and being able to input software upgrades to your car's engine control system.

nsnarsk65cutlass

Thats right, time will tell,i can see it happening in the near future.

1970cs

My new Impala has my link with full touch screen for media. 3 usb ports, 75% percent of configuration is done by touch screen and the last 25% is through the drivers information center, controlled through buttons/pad on the steering wheel.

I registered it with on star which sends you an email with current issues or every thirty days even tells your current tire pressure and oil life.

After 45 days no issues. Love the car, ten percent less fuel milage than my Malibu but it is larger, heavier and 30 more horses. Did I mention that the tires suck in the snow, slush is terrible also! Why do you need 50 series tires on a family car?

I have 50 series on my Alero, but they never touched snow!

Pat

joe_padavano

I'm guessing the GM recall has something to do with the EFI software dumping excess fuel into the converter under certain conditions.

As for wired autos, you can keep them. The latest story in today's Washington Post is about the fear over all these new cars that have Android operating systems, and what Google will do with the information it gathers.

Oh, they'll protect it...

At the recent CES, there was a system on the show floor that tracked individual cell phones, logging what booths they were stopped in front of and sending special deals to these phones. Speculation in the article is that Google will do the same thing with your car data. For example, it will know if you go to Dunkin Donuts for coffee more often that Starbucks.

I'm glad my vehicles will never have any of that crap in them. Yeah, I do carry an Android phone.

jaunty75

I think it's something else if I'm reading the article correctly. It says that the recall is due to the engine not firing on only two cylinders at idle. Apparently these engines are programmed to shut down all but two cylinders when the truck is sitting still with the engine running as a fuel-saving measure, and the computer was not doing this as it was supposed to. So more than two cylinders were firing instead, and the engines were overheating.


This is from the article:

"When the truck idles, it should use two cylinders. But because of a software glitch, the recalled trucks idle with most of the cylinders. That causes the vehicles to overheat and leads to the fires. All of the vehicles that have reported fires are trucks with V-8 engines."

joe_padavano

OK, that's more info than was in the Wash Post article, but the article I read talked about exhaust system fires. That's consistent with a failed cylinder shutdown mode. If the computer turns off spark but continues to spray fuel, that fuel will pool in the exhaust.

ent72olds

???? Wasn't that last century?

Koda

I meant that brake pressure switch cruise control thing, think that was @05.

m371961

Sooner or later every new thing we buy will be able to track us, spy on us and can be controlled or turned on or off by others. Keep the old stuff running.

nsnarsk65cutlass

How many fireballed?Any way SYNC is microsoft,that will tell you my opinion about that.

Koda

I don't know how many burned up, and I'm surprised you seem to think that I do. It was enough to make the news, and enough that I went and checked the harness on my Explorer to make sure it didn't have power when ignition was off.

This was back before bailouts and the media only being allowed to report on foreign car manufacturer recalls.

jaunty75

What?

I've never ever seen any reluctance on the part of the media to report auto manufacturer recalls. Why would they be prohibited from doing so, and who would do the prohibiting? Certainly not the government. They're the ones that usually make the manufacturer issue the recall in the first place.

Koda

The rules changed when the economy went down the crapper and the US government bought GM, along with Ford taking money too. This was also about the time of the 95% fabricated Toyota unintended acceleration smear campaign. Once the government had a stake in car companies, the media was used as a propaganda tool to influence sales. You can see it now, a domestic manufacturer has a recall, it gets one line in the news. Foreign, especially big foreign, it's headlines.

jaunty75

......right.

nsnarsk65cutlass

Ford never recieved one red cent from the government when they bailed out gm and mopar.

Koda

Jaunty, if you're going to be disrespectful, please don't expect me to continue the conversation.

Nsn, they took a 5.9 billion loan in 6/09.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmul...-surprise-you/

Bfg

When will it ever end? Bring back the horse and buggy!

joe_padavano

Sorry, I didn't find anything in his posts to be disrespectful, but frankly some of your posts are borderline tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theory with no basis in fact.

"Toyota smear campaign"??? Not sure where that came from, but how can anyone who's ever used a Microsoft product think that software is infallible?

Of course, as with Audi in the 1980s, 99% of the Toyota problem was driver idiocy, er, error. Congress, as usual, had to look like it was doing SOMETHING by holding hearings. Like Congressmen are qualified to understand technical issues...

oldcutlass

And no one used the Ford Explorer issues to promote their products. Your claim is bogus, as when ever there is a big recall or a surmised safety issue, all the media clamors to make it bigger than it actually is. Just like back in the 60's when consumer reports went after the Corvair or when Jeeps were the most unsafe vehicle on the road, or the Yugo was a POS. Wait never mind, the Yugo was a POS.

redoldsman

Glad you caught yourself on the Yugo there Eric.

jaunty75

It was Ralph Nader, not Consumer Reports.

oldcutlass

That's what I meant.

ent72olds

Well, while we're at it, according to the Forbes article you referenced, Nissan and Tesla along with several other co's, took money just as Ford did as part of Obama's initiative. While GM took a huge handout, and had not come close to paying us back, Chrysler took a big chunk and is now owned by the Italians....getting back to the whole recall thing, you say one line was given with the GM recall. Am I mistaken in thinking there have been no injuries or deaths associated with the issue? The Toyota recall......were there injuries or deaths associated with that?.......could be the largest reason why it was given so much attention....

jaunty75

Testing in 1972 showed the Corvair to be no less safe than other cars of that era. But the damage had been done.

oldcutlass

And also Koda did Toyota just fabricate a repair for this so called myth created by the media?

Koda

Since you all queued up at once, I'll have to take these one at a time.

Joe, you may certainly disagree, but, when I take the time to write something, and then only get a "....right." in return, I call that disrespectful. Am I offended? Of course not. However, following up with "some of my posts are borderline tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theory with no basis in fact," kind of renders your opinion of what is respectful or not in a forum post moot.

Oldcutlass, you mistake my point. My point was that, after the bailout, media coverage focused on non-bailed out recalls. I did not claim what you said about the explorer, nor did I say anything about Jeep or Yugo.

Ent72, I agree with you, a lot of companies took money from the government. You are correct, if it bleeds, it leads. However, I was mainly referring to the quality of the journalism, in reference mainly to the doctored ABC News video showing an engine racing at high RPM with the brake on.

Jaunty, agreed on the Corvair, although that comment wasn't to me.

Oldcutlass (second post), I'll type that one out in the next post.

oldcutlass

Koda, I was just giving examples of media dog piles of the past. It has been well documented over the years about misinformation and also the truth destroying a brand in the past.


As to your imaginary hands off of American car manufacturers in the past few years, I agree with the foil hat statement.

joe_padavano

I'm guessing Koda doesn't remember the NBC inflammatory (pun very much intended) program on the flammable Chevy pickups with the side-saddle gas tanks. These trucks were apparently so dangerous that NBC couldn't get one to ignite on camera until it overfilled the tank, used an incorrect gas cap that didn't seal, then finally had to resort to a few strategically placed Estes model rocket engines to start a fire.

The bottom line is that the press is sensationalistic and will dog pile on whatever story will increase viewers. The Toyota witch hunt all started because an alleged CHP officer, driving his personal Lexus, apparently didn't know to shift into neutral to slow an accelerating vehicle, but apparently DID have the time and presence of mind to call for help on a cell phone.

That's evolution in action, folks.

The press piles on it because its a classic story of big business causing mass deaths on the highway to save a few cents. Congress piles on it for the publicity and because they must have the APPEARANCE of doing something. How many millions of taxpayer dollars went to the NHTSA investigation and the NASA review of their software code? Ultimately, ambulance-chasing lawyers pile on. Interestingly, I've had two stuck throttle episodes in my driving history, both on vehicles with mechanical cable throttles. Both ended with no drama and no damage to anything.

By the way, the end result of the GM pickup truck fiasco, after wasting millions of dollars of taxpayer money, was that the trucks were completely safe and not only met the impact requirements in place when they were new, but also met the impact requirements currently in place when the investigation took place. Meanwhile the lawyers for the class action lawsuit got tens of millions of dollars and the owners of the trucks got a coupon good for a discount of the purchase of a new truck. My coupon arrived long after I had already purchased my 99 crewcab dually.

Koda

In response to Oldcutlass's query

The Toyota changes to the cars in relevance to these cases was fourfold. The first thing that was done was an increased stringency on floor mats. Aftermarket mats were discouraged, and TRD offroading mats were recalled and replaced with ones with hooks that attach to the grommets in the carpet. This was done to eliminate mat to pedal contact.

The second thing that was done was a pedal clearancing, again for the floor mat to pedal contact issue. Current ones were modified, and a new design went in new production. This makes the pedal smaller, so if you have big feet or wear steel boots on the way to work like me, it is a little annoying at times.

The third change was in relevance to the pedal sensor. The pedal to throttle body or carb linkage is gone; the signals go through the computer for better performance, etc, in something called, colloquially, "fly by wire." This entails a Hall effect sensor on the other end of the gas pedal pivot arm that detects the position of the pedal and relays it to the computer. The issue with this is hysteresis. The old linkage had some rotational friction that, if you hit a bump and your foot bounced on the pedal, the pedal had some resistance to keep you from flooring the engine. These sensors don't have that.

The "replicate the old feel of a pedal" solution was a set of friction pads that would give the assembly the rotational resistance needed. The problem that occurred was that a certain type of material was hydrophilic and would swell a small amount in high humidity. This made the throttle sometimes slower to return because of the increased friction. In a few documented cases, the throttle stuck for a small period of time before dropping off. The best analogy I can think of is your throttle return spring getting weak on your Oldsmobile. The solution enacted for this was to go to ONE friction pad with the other side being chromed steel, thus enabling the desired friction, but only 50% of the increased friction from swelling possible, and that's only if the friction pad material, which was replaced and tested for this, swelled like the previous.

The fourth thing done was a software change. In the event that, for any reason, the driver does not like the engine rpm that the gas pedal is mandating, pressing the brake pedal will override that signal and chop it to idle. This is a safety circuit put in in case of floor mat contact, your shoe, the pedal being sticky again, whatever, it will take it to idle, and this is on recalled vehicles and all new ones.

Now, I have answered your technical questions. Allow me to address the other parts of the statement. The media construed smear campaign that began with the ABC doctored video, and tons of testimony from "experts" claimed that the fly by wire computer system would floor the engine, regardless of pedal position, and keep going until the engine stopped running, was utterly false. This has been proven via real experts, hired by NHTSA as a third party, who conducted a year long inquiry into the system. They found a few interesting things:

1. All black box data from all crashes examined showed that the brake pedal had not been hit, and the gas pedal was either floored, or in the notorious event of one charlatan, repeatedly floored and let off repeatedly to the tune of a few times a second.

2. Even IF there were to be a spurious electrical signal flooring the throttle, which is theoretically possible, it wouldn't even blip the engine, due to the amount of signals processed per second. Deviating the engine from gas pedal position RPM for any realistically significant time would require a continual signal override, which is impossible outside of deliberately modifying and controlling the system, and usually not even then, as they found out.

3. Even with the gas pedal floored and the engine racing, neutral is not locked out, nor is the key locked in the ignition cylinder, nor is the power button on keyless start cars disabled, all of which were claimed by plaintiffs. Another fix made the car require less time pushing the power button to shut it down, just in case someone would want to shut the engine off going down the road.

4. Toyota brakes are good, and the engines are not that powerful. Even a Camry with the bigger engine, the 2GR V6, which is @3.7L, will come to a complete, shuddering, smoking halt from interstate speeds with the throttle floored when you slam on the brakes. The engine does not have the power to continue against the factory brake system.

In conclusion, and I apologize for the length, the media and "experts" claim of "runaway cars that keep it floored regardless of pedal position" is totally and absolutely wrong. All crashes in connection with this were a combination of driver error, or an entrapped pedal. No crashes were found that were caused by the friction pad malfunction, nor from spurious electrical signal.

Now, since Joe called into question my posts in basis of fact, I have to tell what I do for a living, and that will probably affect my enjoyment of this forum, as people who work for my company and similar generally get looked down upon on American classic car forums. The reason I know all this information is because I happen to be employed as a Toyota engineer, and have been for quite some time. I don't advertise that much for the above reason. Thank you all for reading.

Koda

No, Joe, that may have been before my time. I do remember the Ford in-cab fuel tanks. I had a cousin who fell asleep, drove off the road, down a ravine, and burned to death in one. His name was David. I never knew the guy, he died before I was born.

I agree with the rest of your statement.

oldcutlass

Koda, your not saying anything that is not common knowledge in the industry. However, there had to be some issue there as there was a fix created. Toyota was also fined $17million for not issuing a recall in a timely manner and settled other litigation in excess of $1.1billion for claims.


Joe, the one thing that did result in the truck fuel tank fiasco was they were required to place all fuel tanks within frame after that.