jaunty75

Not good.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/car...xico/90355146/

70-442-W30

I think the only good out of it was that they said they wouldn't be laying off any US workers because they would be starting on the new product lines. But still...why not simply build another US factory? Basically they'll point to Chrysler for doing it first.

pavemobile

On average, the U.S. labor rates are very high; not only in auto manufacturing but across the board. After my military career I worked as a quality inspector in an FAA certificated aftermarket repair division for one of the major turbine engine manufacturers then moved into Human Resources (I still ask myself why). I spent many, many hours in process improvement meetings trying to cut repair times and costs in general down for competitive contract negotiations with customers out there. You might ask the same questions we all did, "where is all the money going...sure wasn't in my paycheck." Carrier, among others have shifted manufacturing out of the CONUS for labor rate and tax reasons. The fix has to begin D.C. for things to improve; something HAS to change.

jaunty75

I saw this, so apparently, for the moment, no jobs will be lost. But it still certainly sends the wrong message. Right now it's small cars. What happens when they next move large car or SUV or truck production to Mexico? Imagine something as American as a Ford F-150 being made in Monterrey or Guadalajara. Ugh!

But the argument the Ford guy makes is hard to argue with. Labor costs are so much lower in Mexico that they'd be foolish not to take advantage of them. Private companies are not social welfare agencies. They don't exist to create jobs. They exist to make money for their owners (shareholders), and the creation of jobs is a by-product of this. But they make the most money by keeping their costs down. Labor costs, material costs, building and maintenance costs, and everything else. The people running the company would not be doing their fiduciary responsibility to the company owners if they didn't try to run the company as cost-efficiently as possible.

The problem with this is that it hurts American workers. What's the solution? Tariffs, to raise the cost of an item produced elsewhere when sold here? That hurts consumers here. Raise the wages of the Mexican workers so there is less incentive to move production there? How do you do that? Production will always move to the lowest-cost country, and if it's not Mexico it will be Guatemala or Vietnam or China or who knows where.

There's a good editorial here about a renaissance in manufacturing in this country. It starts with a reduction in regulations and a reform in business tax policy, none of which, I'm sure, would happen in a Hillary Clinton administration.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opi...ance/90292180/

z11375ss

The only way to keep jobs in this country is to turn it into a third world nation. We're getting there.

m371961

Not to get political, but I will.
A certain presidential candidate immediatly announced teriffs would be imposed.
The problem with free trade is that it isn't fair trade. All things need to be equal, wages and labor and enviromental regulations.
Can't blame Ford, just doing what they need to in order to compete and the laws allow it.

442Fred

A big point being missed here is they will not be adding any new jobs in the US for production of these cars.

I just bought some new BFG radial T/A tires 225 70R 14 that are now being made in Mexico too.

Maybe the Illegals will go back to Mexico for these jobs.... I supposed that was the plan?

Koda

This is the latest step in making cars for the US market. Most of you know I work for Toyota doing engineering, and I've seen the evolution over my career and the history of the company in the US.

The first thing carmakers did was flee Detroit, and the imports were never really there. They both went to places in the upper south / lower midwest, close to suppliers in Michigan, but away from the unions and high cost of labor. Small towns in Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri, Ohio, and Tennessee were chosen for car plants. It was safe, labor was cheap, the area was depressed, but people would work hard. This was 20-25 years ago.

Next came the deep south. Plants in Mississippi, Texas, Alabama, etc. It was farther from Detroit and suppliers, but cheaper in labor. I personally know the difference between a worker at a Midwest plant, and a worker in a Deep South plant; I had to calculate payoff in labor savings by installing a machine and how long it would take for us to save the labor money to break even, and I have to know the "all in" company cost for full wage, insurance, etc for a person. It is vastly different.

Now, we are to Mexico. Central Mexico, Guanajato, has been deemed safe enough, with enough Mexican suppliers, that making cars there is considered a good deal. All the companies are moving their entry level cars there for the US market. Toyota is moving Corollas from Ontario down there and making Rav4s up there, and I may get tapped for the retool.

I think, after a Mexico plant or two, Cuba and Honduras will be next.

I am not certain that these tariffs will work. It is next to impossible to artificially thwart capitalism. The jobs will migrate to wherever it is cheapest to make the cars that can meet a minimum standard of quality and regional security. I think the line workers deserve every penny. I can build any process on the line, and I can do it as well as they can, but I cannot do it anywhere near as fast as they do. I would stop the line, guaranteed, every day, for weeks. Our guys are fast, and good. The problem is when someone else is just as fast, just as good, and will work for less.

Tariffs are cool, but, ultimately it drives up the price of the vehicle, because the company won't pay it; they'll make the consumer pay it.

oldsmobiledave

The prices of new vehicles, especially pick up trucks is way too high.

With the lower labor costs will manufacturers lower the cost of vehicles?

No....not a chance. They want the higher profits for shareholders.

coppercutlass

Thats cool i dont even like fords anyway. Fords are junk., now they truly will have an excuse to be junk.

olds 307 and 403

I agree, even though they are much nicer and finally have decent power and mileage, I can't swing a grand a month payment. 60+ grand is retarded for a 1/2 ton and 90 grand for 3/4 ton, yikes!

Olds64

Puzzling... do I comment on the articles about an auto manufacturer that makes the best truck in the world and has nothing to do with Oldsmobiles?

Or, do I close the thread because it is "political?"

Please keep politics out of the discussion.

ELY442

This is good news for the Mexicans. Now they can make secret compartments in the cars to store illegal immigrants and ship them to USA.

MDchanic

I disagree with this completely, and corporate leaders in other parts of the world would disagree with it, as would corporate leaders in the US in the '50s, '60s, and '70s.

It happens that this view of the corporation having loyalty only to its shareholders has been the dominant view since the 1980s, but it is neither a universal, nor a constant view.
In the last century, profits were a vitally important motivator, but the wellbeing of the company's employees, and of the nation, were also considerations, as was the company's reputation, and there is no reason why those same considerations should not apply here and now.

In Germany, and in other countries, companies (like Mercedes and Volkswagen) are expected to serve their societies and their workers, and representatives of the employees and of the government sit on the boards of directors (VW is owned in part by the local state government), and nobody sees these companies as failing economically, or as shortchanging their employees.

As far as I'm concerned, an American citizen in a leadership position in an American company who moves his production to another country for a few cents' more profit is a traitor, pure and simple, and should be put up against the wall and shot for betraying his own nation in exchange for a few gold coins.
The fact that a corporation is "multinational" does not absolve its leaders of their responsibility to their own country and their own people.

Lower prices and higher profits are not the be-all and end-all. There are countries where the heads of corporations are not as rich as our own, where the employees are paid better, and, yes, where the prices are higher. Their citizens are not suffering in misery. Examples are Germany, France, and Canada.



Production only moves to the lowest-cost country because we allow it to. Tariffs would raise prices, but it would be easier for people who actually have jobs to pay those prices.

The other thing I would note, in response to other posters here (and making an argument for the other side, really), is that the rate of illegal immigration to the US from Mexico has been NEGATIVE for several years now. That is, though some people continue to come in, more people are leaving and going back.
The reason for this is simple: The Mexican economy is improving, there are more jobs with better pay, and people can do fine back home without worrying about being deported all the time. This is pretty much the only way to stop illegal immigration: You make it reasonably tough to sneak in, but you also reduce the reasons why anyone would want to in the first place. If Mexico is a living hell, the tallest wall in the world won't stop people from figuring out ways to get across it, but if Mexico is a pretty nice place, a hand painted sign in the middle of the Rio Grande saying "Cross over there at the border station" will pretty much do it.
The more we can do politically and diplomatically to help them straighten out their country, the more it will benefit us.
Sure seems to work out okay with Canada.

The final thing I will say on this is that part of our Mexican immigration problem has to do with our immigration laws.
I'm not talking about amnesty or any of that crap, I'm talking about the laws themselves.
Back in the fifties and earlier, our laws recognized the reality that Mexico is a natural source or potential American citizens, and permitted immigration with some freedom.
In 1965, as part of LBJ's Great Society package, all of our immigration laws were rewritten to be more fair to immigrants from all countries (they had gone out of their way to discourage immigration from "non-white" countries before), but the new laws specified the same immigration quotas for every single country in the world (which I think is something like 20,000 a year).
This means that tiny island countries in the Pacific have the same immigration quota as, say... Mexico.
This is stupid. Countries that are our neighbors are natural suppliers of citizens, in either direction (look at how many US retirees have now moved to Mexico), and this should be recognized with generous quotas and simple, but careful, requirements and investigation. If we say that you can only come here if you follow the law, and then limit immigration to 20,000 people a year, while sharing a multi-thousand mile unsecurable border, well that's just stupid - people will come anyway.
This is a problem of our own making, and we have the ability to unmake it.

And, finally: America is a great country. One of the reasons we are great is because we've accepted motivated people (good, bad, smart, dumb, but all motivated) from all over the world for centuries. I've got no problem with Mexicans. Illegal immigrants, I've got a problem with, but I like most Mexicans I meet. Go to any US city. You've got an Irish bar, a Chinese restaurant, and a pizza place on every block, and a Greek diner in every neighborhood, and everyone's got Rhinegold, Schaeffer, Schlitz, Pabst, or Budweiser in their fridge. I've got no problem with a taco truck on every corner, so long as the folks working there came here legally.

- Eric

droldsmorland

Sooo tired of this. We ARE self destructing. Give it all away who cares. I fear for what Im handing off to my kids. Why is it everywhere I go, everything I read, everyone I talk to has these very same sentiments yet its business as usual? Of 100 people I know 2 are voting for the Royal vagina in November(cigars included but dont smokem)... yet somehow she will make it in. Gee I wonder how that could be...The Roman Empire crumbled from within cuz it was to fat and top heavy. History IS repeating its self. Were over due according to statistics. The WWII generation was the pinnacle for us. All down hill after that generation dies out. Almost there. Great, no, stellar job from our selfish countries "leaders". Slobs! Shame on all of them. Stupid CANNOT be fixed nor voted out. EX-PAT to the Cayman Islands...here I come. At least Ill have a drink in my hands and toes in the sand and a comfortable seat from which to watch the mushroom cloud.

Koda

I like Eric's (pink boat Eric) post very much. I think our country is strong with legal immigrants who come here to love the country and be Americans.

MDchanic

I agree completely. Empires rise and fall, and they can be tracked through the generations, from the hungry and hardworking founders to the fat, lazy, and needlessly aggressive, who ride the thing down to the ground.
We've passed our peak, and that means it's a matter of time until someone else tells us what to do.

Nothing I can do about it, though - the forces of history seem to be pretty strong.

- Eric

wr1970

This whole thread is political.Nafta and free world trade brought about all the jobs leaving. Car plants making cars else where but here. I think the general public isn't screaming load enough and until we do business as usual.

jaunty75

Maybe so, but people keep buying them.

No it's not. It's about cars.

pogo69

The investors are thrilled, F was up a penny today to 12.11... this is one of the worst stocks I have ever seen up about 4 dollars over 10 year I do give them credit for not taking bailout cash like GM did... and F dividend is a few pennies less then GM

70-442-W30

That's one of my favorite places. The turtles are awesome!

wr1970

I knew you would never agree with what is plain for all to see. Sure as hell if i made a thread like this one it would have already been trashed by the mods.