tkcutlass

Long term I am considering options to add Overdrive to my 70-cutlass convertible with a 455 mild build 340 HP.
Also, I have a 69 HT cutlass with a 6 banger that would be nice to have overdrive.
So I have been keeping my eyes open for 200R4, especially for the 6-banger
I came across a guy with a bunch of Grand National parts who has several 2004R transmissions ranging from $700-$3500.
What should I be asking/looking for?

TIA

zl1 camaro

MY advise to you my friend is to call a good local transmission shop in your area for a honest answer. If you do not have one in mind call Joe @ REDLINE TRANSMISSION IN ROCH NY @ 585-270- 4766 HE will get you going in the right direction. Older guy & has been doing this for YEARS...tell him Tom from east ave auto told you to call him. good luck

Koda

Unless you plan to change the rear end on the 69, that 6 will not have the power to pull the car in OD.

tkcutlass

It happens to have a 3.08 posi.... not sure if that's enough

Koda

At least it's not a 2.56. I think that, if you were to OD it, with that rear, it would drive like a 3 speed and have a cruising only OD. If you want, you could drive it in D, and, when rolling down the highway, put it in OD, and probably get excellent fuel mileage. It would downshift, I would think, under any acceleration. Definitely calculate the RPM, you don't want it to cruise at a lug, but you might be able to hang at around 2200 rpm and be cool except for passing.

madmax442.com

Any reason you are not considering a 700R4? They are more common and more reliable IMO. I have one mated to SBC in my '72 Cutlass. Shiftworks even makes a kit for the Hurst Dual gate, it all looks factory.

Olds64

For the price of building a 2004R or getting an adapter plate for a 700R4 you could probably get a new GearVendors unit.

66_Jetstar

What should you be looking for?

For the 455- a 4l80e. Forget the 200. It had it's 15 minutes of fame but it is nothing but a headache in practice. Its a crap smog transmission that is as delicate as a china plate. Yeah GN this and that, blah blah blah.. save yourself the money and frustration, its crap unless you put 4k into and have it built by a specialist, and then its still no better than a 4l80e.

For the 6 banger- the 200 is an ok choice, but given the chevy bellhousing I'd rather swap the 700 with the deeper first. Core availability is way better and cheaper than the 200 stuff. Plus anyone can build it.

cdrod

Tim,
I was fortunate to find a BQ coded TH200-4r from an '84 Grand National for $75. I did a stage 1 rebuild with Mike Kurtz who was one of the first guys to make the 200-4r transmissions survive behind high HP/TQ engines. I think $200 is the going rate for a complete GN core with the D5 convertor. I forget if you're car has a small block or big block; if big block, you should plan to spend $3k to beef up all the internals to handle the BBO torque. You can build any 200-4r core to your standards but I was told that the Buick GN, Monte Carlo SS & Olds 442 cores were already programmed for performance so you're more likely to get firmer shifts and higher shift points than a more pedantic model.

The Buick GNs came with 3.42 rear gears and the Monte Carlo SS and 442s from that era came with 3.73 rear gears so that might be something to consider if you're lucky enough to have the option to chose a core that matches your rear gear choice. Good 200-4r trans cores will be dated '82-'88; Buick GN cores will be coded BR & BQ, Monte SS cores will be coded CQ & CZ, 442 cores will be coded OZ & KZ.

Rodney

droldsmorland

Tom Is that the place on Atlantic/Culver area by East High?
Steve

olds 307 and 403

The 700R4 isn't any more reliable than a 2004R, both are weak. But the steep 3.06 700R4 first gear would help on launch with the 6 vs the 2.74 first gear. The 700R4 needs the drive shaft shortened, the 2004R is the same length as a 6" tail TH350. The GN 2004R are the best factory ones, as referenced The 3.08 will work OK if you are fine with 1500 rpm highway speeds.

droldsmorland

^^^^^ This^^^^
If you took a 200 apart and compared its guts to a 350, 400, 4L80-or 85 apart you'd run from the 200. The china plate analogy is somewhat accurate. The drum, shafts etc are tiny compared to the better transmissions listed here.

The 700 is a better choice for the 6 as its a Chevy and will bolt right up. Just make sure to go through it before bolting it up. A bearing, steel/friction, and seal kit is relatively inexpensive and not that hard to rebuild with moderate abilities. Make sure the TV cable is set right. All of these transmissions are simple to refresh.(IMO).

zl1 camaro

YES sir it is. You must be from around here ?

BlueCalais79

I am just about to have a freshly rebuilt 200R4 put in my blue 79 Cutlass to replace the 21 year old tired one. Via recommendations from this site I used Extreme Automatics out of Ohio. Real easy to do business with, I'm looking forward to testing out the new product. I asked for a stock rebuild as my situation is a bit different than yours probably is, in that I have a lighter car with alot less horsepower (260 F code motor, 105hp). I do have 3:08's in the back, so I agree 100% with how Koda described how to drive the car, it's exactly what I do: around town and up to 45 mph I'm leaving it in 3rd, and I drop it into 4th on the highway. At 65 I'm rolling at about 1850 rpms in 4th, great for gas mileage.

This is a great set up for me, but again, I have a low HP car so anyone with more muscle under the hood is going to want to check out other options.

bccan

My latest 200-4R has lasted 15 years behind 535 ft/lbs and still going. Occasional blasts, a few track days, but mostly normal driving. With 3.90 & 26.5ish tire it runs appx 2300 at 70mph locked up.

Red car has stock BRF w/shift kit & servo, it has at least 150k on it, probably more, behind 9:1 350 w/ small cam & headers. With 3.08 & 26ish tire, iirc it runs appx 1800 @ 70mph, locked up. Daily driving 24/7/365 since 2009 with a few track days years ago.

Nothing wrong with 200 as long as it is not under built for the use it will see, that said, the price of a good build has gotten spendy. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve hurt a couple of them too but they were not HD builds. The 6 cyl would need nothing but a freshen up, shift kit & servo for good measure.

For the 6 banger, either 200 or 700 has logistical pluses & minuses, good news is that either will be fine. I wouldn’t worry too much about the 3.08 but you’ll only know once driving it.

My built trans came from CK on Long Island, I would also recommend Dave Husek at Turbo Buick Performance, also on LI. Closest 200-4R experts to CT, a harrowing drive or leisurely ferry ride.

​​​​​​….

olds 307 and 403

The stock 700R4/4L60E were terrible in trucks, GM had a TSB and a replacement reman trans available because of itEndless 3/4 clutch pack failures in trucks, I did that to a work truck. I also experienced the super weak reverse in my 94. The 2004R stock needs a lot of help as well but behind your 6 cyl, basically stock is fine. The stock hi po versions usually died around the 180,000 km mark from new, heard that from a couple of people, one was a wrecker. The TH350 is also a weak POS in my books, stock. I saw a couple fail behind 160 HP Olds 350's. I also experienced the weak reverse and had another start slipping behind mild power.

69HO43

It's like anything else. Throw $$ at it, shore up the weak points, and a 200-4R can take anything you can throw at it. There's lots of turbo Buicks out there with more power than most others successfully running their built 200-4Rs.

That said, the 200-4R was a transmission from another era NEVER meant to be stuck behind a 455. It was just never meant to be anything other than primarily a more fuel-efficient transmission that was part of an OBD1 emissions/fuel-economy "package" where power was secondary to everything else. Lighter weights and lighter duty was the name of the game. Why would you need HD stuff behind 140-180 HP +/- V8s? So just tossing it behind a 455 is asking for trouble if you don't beef it up.

Early turbo Regal Buick transmissions and early Olds H/O and 442 OZ trans were the top two 200-4Rs valve bodies to have in the 80s. The Monte's CQ and anything with a 3 letter code that followed was ok, but not quite as good as the Buick and Olds earlier versions out of the box. I know for a fact KZFs were detuned because people were crying that the OZ's 1-2 shift was bone-jarring, so Olds eased up a little on the calibrations for the 442. Still firm and better than the run of the mill versions, but not calibrated as rough.

Like anything else, it's probably easier to find a transmission already ready to tackle the 455's stock torque. But if you want to put some hardened parts in it and a new pump and torrington bearings in the right spots, you can make a 200-4R hold its own.

When I by performance cars, gas mileage is probably #146th of the Top 10 reasons I'd want to purchase one, especially if there's a 455 in it.

71 OLDS

I run an Extreme Automatics 2004R stage 2 build in my 70 Supreme with a 374 SBO around 400/400 and 3.90 gears and a 28" tire (275/60/15). It's got about 5k hard miles on it shifting regularly at around 6000 RPM. Spin the tires easily off the line and chirps 2nd and is great on the hwy in OD. I don't drive on long trips very often so I'm considering going to 4.33s for even more fun. With the .67 OD even with 4.33s can go around 70 on the hwy at 2500ish with my 28" tires. Also the 4.33's would be better (cross traps in 3rd closer to hp max RPM then w/3.90s) for 1/4 mile if I ever get the car to the track. Very happy with the trans and Lonnie at Extreme Automatics is great to work with and does an incredible job with these 2004Rs.

-Joe

cdrod

TIm:
The following is a list of common upgrades to make the 200-4r last behind a high HP/TQ engine:

No plastic thrust washers, use torringon bearings!!
Thrust washer is OK on rear sun shell!! Drill drain-back hole at front seal New rear bushing New rear torrington bearing New sun-gear torrington
*End play should be .005"-.010" Machine OD piston .070' to add a friction to 4th
*Install extra friction btwn back-2-back steels
*CK sells a 4th gear piston machined .080 under Install CK 2nd servo
*Check servor band apply use longer pin if needed Add extra frictions to the direct clutch??
4th clutch = 2 frictions + 3 steels + backing plate
Overrun = 2 frictions + 2 steels + backing plate
Direct clutch = 6 frictions + 6 steels + backing plate
Forward clutch = 4 frictions + 5 steels + wave plate
Low/Rev clutch = 6 frictions +7 steels + wave plate Hardened Sun Shell Hardened Stator Support Shaft Billet Forward Drum 10-vane pump with hardened rings & vanes
Wide intermediate band (Alto)

Rodney

66_Jetstar

The 4l80e has a few advantages. Mainly out of the box it needs no exotic billet parts or excessive modifications. It is as rugged as a the best th400 made.

Secondly the cores are everywhere. Your local yard has them stacked like cord wood. They are cheap and easy to source. Way easier thab finding a 200, and a paying stupid money for a GN core that is only slightly better.

Third- any trans shop can build one. No need to send it away to some specialist and pay a premium. Any needed parts can be sourced locally and not for silly billet prices.

After dicking with the TV cable on the 200, and cutting/shaving the governor, (is anyone with a 200 really happy with the part throttle upshifts?) tuning the trans with a hand held computer is way easier.. I'll live a long happy life without dropping the pan on a 200 again..

Sure shortening the driveshaft is a bummer, but thats easy enough, and is a one and done deal.

matt69olds

A 700 is a stronger trans from the factory, but the aftermarket has taken the 2004R far beyond anything the 700 could ever hope to achieve.

As you mentioned, the stamped steel carriers on pistons of the 2004R leave much to be desired. However, you can build aftermarket parts to replace those flimsy steel parts. And in the case of the 700, the ultimate weakness is the pressed in input shaft into the aluminum input housing. I don’t think there will ever be an affordable aftermarket replacement for that. It’s too big and heavy to machine from anything but aluminum.

In all honesty, if the engine has enough power to need aftermarket parts for either transmission to live, just bite the bullet and go 4L80. You can install every aftermarket fancy part into a 200/700 trans, it will still be weaker than a stock 4L80. A 4L80 even with the driveshaft modifications, controller and other stuff would be far cheaper.

I have built dozens of 4L80 with stock parts that go all season behind 1000hp turbo LS engines. Try that with the 700/200, it ain’t happening.

To the OP: as long as you’re SURE you have no desire to ever make upgrades to the engine, you will probably be fine. I would strongly suggest adding a hardened stator support tube to the build, and consider a billet forward clutch housing. The clutch housing is a known weak link, when the shaft snaps you have 7 neutrals and park.

If think you might feel the urge to crank up the engine beyond your current level, just bite the bullet and go 4L80. Use the 2004R as is behind the 6 cylinder, it will live a long life.

CANADIANOLDS

Neither of you two know what you’re talking about. I have some pretty strong big blocks running around using the 200 without any problems for years.

the 200 doesn’t need an adapter plate to mount it to the Olds like the 4l80E does, and it doesn’t need a stand alone controller to make it work. The 200 is 80 pounds lighter and eats less hp.

look at how many guys already responded who use the 200 behind big blocks without any issues. And no, it doesn’t cost a bunch of money to make them survive

BlueCalais79

Well TKCutlass, there you have it, looks like you are in the same boat as me with your 6 cylinder as since it doesn't have high horsepower: the 200R4 is the route to go.

But for your other one, hmmmmmm, lots of alternatives were laid out here. Since I don't have a dog in that fight I can honestly say I wouldn't know what I was talking about on what to use for the high horsepower stuff.

I'm sure you'll pick what's best for your needs, have a great weekend. My (replacement) 200R4 goes in Monday, I'll post how it does, either here or in a new post.