Bdawg I kinda agree it drives the price up on everything for these cars as well IMHO, I live in the NE and there is a huge rust problem everything you find ( if you can find it) has rust issues and then the snappa head sees a 442 go for 40K figures your restoring a 40K vehicle and wants his share.... when actually we are making a 6-10K driver...

 

You asked, so I'll tell you "why complain?".
1. The guys with more money than brains are not good caretakers of vintage automobiles. They are not concerned about the cars, and they don't really care about them. It is just a toy to them.
2. When the $$ goes up, so does fraud. I'm sick and tired of seeing the forgeries out there that have come with the higher car values. It is ruining the gene pool which is a concern of the real hobbyist, but not the profiteers out there, and there are plenty of them.
Not a poor man's game? Why does it have to be pushed into the hands of the wealthy? Money doesn't buy care. The high values make it harder for people to care for their cars.
Personally, I see a *lot* to complain about.

 

anybody that mentions B-J as a basis for the price of their car is a moron,and shouldn't be taken seriously.

the reality is you can't consider B-J as a viable source of value on a car.

the bidders are drunk,and some of those cars are bought back by the sellers

 

Well, I guess I got my lumps on my previous comment. OK, I get your points, but I am confused then, what is the happy median?

I chose to collect the 442 because I have loved the car since I was old enough to drive. I also want the car to appreciate in value....frankly I want it to appreciate a lot. All through automotive history the "classic" cars of an era have almost always escalated tremendously in value. Ok, perhaps there were always rich morons, but that doesn't change the fact that for the most part you must consider such cars investments.

Additionally it is also the car shows and meets that help fuel this escalating price. Every time any Olds Club has a meet/show and hands out awards and praise they inspire the phenomena.


Also, while again I think I understand you feelings look at this quote...it is literally a condradiction; because what people are willing to pay is afterall what anything is worth.

 

I'm kind of on coltsneckbob's side of this. It is very tough because as the rare cars go up in price it makes even the lower end cars go up too. So yes it makes it more difficult for many people to buy a car they want. But as I have said you can't begrudge folks who have that kind of money spending it whether we think it is foolish or not.

The big dilema for many of us is what we use the car for, driving, shows, investments. Like coltsneckbob I bought a 442 because I dreamed of one since I was a kid, I learned how to drive in a 1971 Lime Green Cutlass. Now that I own a 442 that is escalting in value, can I risk driving it as much as I want? I feel cars were made to be driven and life is too short to keep a car stuck in a gragage, at the same time I understand why many folks have trailor queens

The one thing I do, is always encourage people (especially kids) to carefully look at my car or even let people get in it. My biggest fear is that as these cars increase in price, crabby old men who yell at kids when they get too close to a car will scare off the next generation of hobbyists. When I was a kid a man with a gull-wing 300 SL caught me peaking in the window of his car then asked me if I liked it and when I said yes he invited me to sit in it, I will never forget him or his car and return the favor everyday I can

 

I guess everyone will have an opinion on the subject. But in my opinion this is going to hurt alot of people in the long run because when the rich guy gets tired of this fad and yes thats all it is to these guys.Then the bottom will fall out and the value of these cars will depreciate. And if you bought the car hoping to make a pile of money from it then do you really love the car. I personally will likely die owning my cars.

 

Great TV to watch though. Even better now that my cable provider hooked me up with Speed HD.

 

I like to let the crowd participate also. I always scratch out the "do not" in the please do not touch sign ...

I also like driving around ...

a lot ...

 

The thing I see is that you get someone who took a Barracude with a 318, and dropped a hemi crate engine in it, and it goes for over $100,000.00. Now every moron with a rusted out Barracuda/Challenger thinks there car is worth big bucks. All this while the numbers matching restored cars don't bring the money they should. I get it that your car is only worth what someone else is willing to pay, but this is not the reality, it's B-J.

 

I totally agree.

Anyone remember Unique Performance's police raid in Texas 2 years ago??
All the fake Eleanor Mustangs they were building as legit ones and the state
raided their shop with IIRC 61 or so clones ready to be built with titling issues and fake VIN tags ??

http://jalopnik.com/319267/oh-no-ele...-title-washing

http://www.khou.com/news/state/stori....5359acae.html

IMO the market is saturated with clones, and fake VIN tags being pawned off as all original supercars
fetching obnoxious amounts of money, which encourages MORE people to jump on the bandwagon.

I could go buy a 442 original VIN tag, get a built 455 and slap it in my car with only 6700 miles on it
and go lie too.......

 

The value of the cars is based on supply and demand.
The BJ auction brings them right into your living room and increases demand. In 1980 decent 442's were $700, nobody cared. If I had 50K to spend on an investment car I would want the history of the car from day one.
We have alot of streetrodders here in MN and they are mostly from 55-75 years old. and 10 years from now I'm predicting a glut of streetrods. Not too many 40 year old guys want 48 ford sedans. We'll see what happens to the muscle cars in the future.

 

If you're suggesting that in the future the price of these Muscle Cars will decrease then I would respectfully disagree. We may see a decrease in the rate of increase, but not likely a decrease in prices. Again, the history of car collecting would indicate that to be the case.

I would agree that clones or any car without sufficient documentation might suffer some. Though documentation can be faked it is generally harder to age sufficient and detailed documentation to appear real to prove the car real. Also, if the numbers match that is also a pretty significant form of proof which should protect the real cars. In order to fake all this (paper and iron) the cost begins to approach and even exceed what one can get for a car.

I do think guys in their 20's 30s and 40s today will still want the cars of the Muscle era. If you think about it the Detroit Muscle Car era was relatively short lived. It was only from about 1967 at the earliest to 1970 (at best to 72). Aside from powerful V8s the era was significant as a unique period in car design. Prior to 67 there were mostly the boxy high stance sedans. Generally there were not a lot of 2 door "sports" type vehicles (Mustang being an exception). After 72-73 we went to the clunky look with flimsy body styling (which eventually led to the horrible bodies of the 80s) in order to accommodate crash and mileage requirements imposed by Feds.

So, what I am saying is that the Muscle Cars (the real ones) are actually somewhat in low supply. Additionally, they mark a significant design period and transition that is represented even today as lower slung, sleeker styles with no compromise toward crash worthiness or fuel economy (lets pretend that is a good thing .

The cars of the Muscle era represent something very significant culturally, economically and artistically I therefore feel they will continue to be investments as well as fun for well into the future. Perhaps I am biased, too hopeful, too optimistic, but that is my take on it

 

I will respectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement.

The history of car collecting DOES indicate that prices go up and down. Witness the 1980s when musclecars first took off and were claimed to be "investments". Prices came back to earth in the early 1990s. Keep in mind that people believed that housing prices would never decrease, either.

 

Okay, why do you want them to appreciate considerably in value? If you're not selling the car, what do you have to gain? Please explain.
And if you're are selling it, well it looks like you're a profiteer, not an Olds enthusiast.

There is a difference in having a following and and interest like the Oldsmobile Club fosters and having price escalations like we've seen with musclecars. I think it is a gross exaggeration to say the the Olds club "fuels the escalating price(s)" and "inspire the phenomena".
That said, there *is* a good reason to have *some* (as in reasonably moderate) value to the cars. And that is to promote and make affordable reproduction part. And that is an very important part of the hobby. In fact that can help keep values down in some cases.

I agree. History has shown a *relative* decline and popularity of "types" of cars as the generations pass (pass away, literately) that made them popular.

I think it is human nature to think that what we are interested will have a timeless appeal. And I agree the musclecars will have a timeless appeal, but not at the present level values. Not when "drunks with more money than brains" are involved. You have to admit they just don't have any long term historical influence.

 

Being from AZ, I've attended my share of BJ auctions and worked in TV for 25 years. I think these auctions are good showmanship, but not reality TV. In real life it would be a couple of guys haggling over 4 or 5 grand for a half-finished car at a local swap meet.
Anybody want to TiVo that?

 

Well, why is wanting it to appreciate and being an Olds enthusiast mutually exclusive? I don't think they are. Anyway, whether you spent $20K, $50K or $100K isn't it better for the price to increase over the alternative of losing money? Art lovers buy and sell art all the time and usually make good $$ at it. I see no reason why one would disparage that practice with automobiles. However, while I intend to keep my vehicle for a long time yet if and when I do sell it I would be very pleased to make some money on it. Especially since I have and will put money into it in addition to many many hours of hands on care.

You know there is a quote from a song that comes to mind "you don't tug on Superman's cape and you don't spit into the wind". I know where you're coming from and I appreciate the purest sensibilities you have about it, but I think that you're not acknowledging the reality of consumerism and our culture. The Olds clubs hand out these awards, then the winners promote that when they sell. Buyers see the awards and desire the car thus driving up prices. It is inevitable. It is also comparable to horse racing or even beauty contests.......just tell me when does a winner not get the laurels and subsequently the money?

It is human nature. Many times people make bets or put their faith in something and it doesn't pan out. Other times it does. When it does it is my belief it is more often careful consideration of the situation that leads to success. I can't really fault the "drunks with more $$ then brains" cause frankly they usually wouldn't have the money if they were really stupid people.

Finally truth be told I do want a certain exclusivity to ownership. OK, you may call me a snob or elitist, but then we all are to an extent. I feel that certain cars (and btw the 442 is my favorite, but I have other ones I consider up there...eg. 1968 Shelby Mustang) fit the criteria for enduring appeal. I feel that keeping one "alive" and around not only for my pleasure, but for others is part of what I like about it. I like to think that my passion is at least partially driven because I understand better then other people that these objects should be preserved. Additionally, there is ego. I think everyone who owns a classic car enjoys when people look and perhaps compliment you on your baby. However, generally you only get that type of attention for something if it is exclusive. The compliments I get validate the work and money I put into this hobby and I also think it validates my notion of enduring appeal.

 

I already posted what I consider to be problems with high car values.
I never said I had a problem with modest values and protection of your value of investment. But you specifically said "frankly I want it to appreciate a lot".


The same rules and awards are bestowed on 1951 Oldsmobiles and we don't have the same "high dollar problems" with them, so I think that illustrates why the Olds Club and Oldsmobile shows are not really any significant part of the problem. We wouldn't be having this discussion if you were the proud owner of a 1951 Oldsmobile.


A candid and honest self evaluation that I think is a fair reflection of most of us. And what drives so many of us. I like to think of us as caretakers. These cars will be around long after we are gone.
So how are we going to handle things on our watch?
Thanks coltsneckbob, this has been a very good exchange of of some very basic fundamentals.

 

Cars are a part of everybody's life they come in all different types if you have them because you love them that's great. If you them because there an investment that is great. Muscle cars have gained in value a lot, I remember when people couldn't give them away. So a lot of them set for years rusted to nothing. Wrecked because they were people's first cars. Know there harder to find everybody with one setting in there back yard thinks they have found gold. If you want to collect them for investment go ahead somebody will give what you want for it. I'd rather enjoy mine know and the rest of my life.

 

Kurt,

Yep, it is interesting to get other's perspectives. I appreciate the exchange.

Interesting point about the 51 Olds. If you were to ask, which you did not , but I'm gonna answer anyway, I would say it is about style. The aesthetics of a thing are an important aspect of what usually make collectables valuable. Sexy styling just didn't seem to happen in the 50's. In fact it wasn't until the 64 Mustang that I think "sexy" broke through (again) in the automobile designers mentality. I say "again" because prior to WW2 there were some "sexy" styled cars; which btw are quite expensive as of today. Add to the style a unique technology (i.e the muscle car performance) and I think you increase the odds of it becoming a collectible. A Detroit 50's car was primarily about transportation. But, there are many cars that had "style" from the 50's that are worth a boat load of $$ today (e.g. gull wing SL, Porsches).

Detroit always knew style sold, but it really came to the forefront with the post 64 cars. Perhaps too much so as eventually Detroit cars became all about style and no substance. And, one could certainly argue Detroit lost sight of even style in the 80's !!!!

Like predicting the stock market, the price of oil, peace on earth.....this is only my opinion, but like the folks who do predict stock values I am trying to consider past performance......and why did certain collectable cars perform so well in terms of value.

One thing is for certain.....the value of my 442 held up better than my stock portfolio this past year!!


Bob
(from Colts Neck, NJ)

 

good opinions being thrown around here and glad folks are willing to jump in. I for one like having a 442 convertible and my ego likes to know I have a W30 so for me it is a bit of an ego thing as well, though as mentioned before other favorite cars are a 70 Buick Wildcat and a 70 Mercury Cougar.

I think many of these muscle cars will hold their value or continue to increase as well. But many will decline, partly because of pure economical factors but also because trends will change. I for one never thought I'd like a four dour car (love station wagons but four door cars???? no way) yet look at the Taurus SHO, Impala SS, Charger, CTS-V and the Mercury Marauder I have as a daily driver - all very capable cars and family friendly. Now you have a whole new era of cars that turn as well as they sprint, Mustangs, Camaro's, Challengers, Viper, Vette (can you say Z06)- these cars are convenient, reliable, safe and fast. In many cases faster than the dream muscle cars we remember. I know my stock Marauder was slower than my 442 but with a few grand I have a 12 second quarter mile car that fits 5 safely and comfortably. Though most of the new versions of the cars are much quicker than the old ones, a stock Mustang GT is pretty darn fast compared to a GT from 4 decades ago.

Not to mention the used car values that are out there now like a Z06, Porsche 911, BMW M3 or a CTS-V, these cars are incredible - 10 years ago all us guys in our 40s and 50s had were longing for the past of the 64 - 72 era of power, now you can go to the dealer and buy more power than most of us would know what to do with. This alone will change the market in a few years as these cars become available on the used car market. I tell many of my freinds to look at a used recent mustang before buying an older one because of reliabilty, convenience and mostly for safety reasons. If it is a third car - great, buy an old car, be it Skylark, Cutlass, Lemans T37, GSX or a W30 but as a car you may drive more often than not I think the new ones offer a lot of value and safety for the price.

 

Hi I am new to this site................

 

Vincy,

I am going to move this post to the newbie section. Where you will meet more people .

Glad to have you aboard

 

Steve Magnante is a great guy, very enthusiastic and knowledgeable car guy. He drove an altered wheelbase Dart to the OCA Nationals in July and spent some time with my car.

 

Any who.... Barret Jackson showed there ignorance on this Car and that's what mattered. There a Joke! Its a Carnival to sell Cars. And the rich guys buying selling Muscle Cars for $$$$ can all GTH! I would rather see the cars on the streets than in some Clowns 50 Car Garage collection.

 

I guess I don't understand the extreme resentment of BJ or other places where these cars are sold. Nor, the feeling about seeing the cars on the street as opposed to having them preserved.

Inevitably as cars are driven they wear out. Or, they are destroyed in accidents. The so called rich guys may not have as much emotional attachments as other enthusiasts, but at least they preserve the cars for posterity. I think there is value in that.

 

Yeah its not the Law just my personal Opinion! Its been that way since I was a kid.

 

Vincy, welcome to CO. I don't think there is a way to move just your post out of this thread into a new thread. Go ahead and start your own thread and introduce yourself there.

 

I wonder if those wheels were orginal from the factory?