J'ville

Took awhile but it looks like the 442's are now outpacing the GTO's and Chevelles at the auctions. Even Craig Jackson mentioned that the 442 is now moving up in the same league as the Hemi Cudas. A 70 W-30 4-speed convertible brought $202,000 there. A (non W-30) 442 brought $105,000 at Palm Beach.
And the J-2 57's are coming on strong now.
But it looks like it may be awhile before my 64 F-85 Sedan gets there.

Diego

I bet the '68 was an anomaly. But the top Olds cars trail the Ram Air IVs and LS6s overall. Car for car, the Olds is going to trail the Chevys. Hemi'Cudas are still 200+k . . . and that's in hardtop form.

Wyze

Whenever I watch I'm always hoping to see a Cutlass come across the block!!!

Eddie Hansen

watched the mecum auction had a decent looking 69 cutlass ( sort of a mild street rod, cragars, 455, fairly clean looking) and it only got up to about 9-10K but it was a funky auction a 30K mile 85 eldo only brought 4K


as far as Barrett jackson when I saw the barney fife mobile go for over 120K!! I knew there are some sick ****** out there LOL
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...&aid=303&pop=1

Blk71SX

did you see the yellow 69 442 vert with a Buick engine?????? what were they thinking????

agtw31

these auctions are simply places for these rich guys to hide their cash.

be realistic,look at what pieces of junk sell for there

every big time financial hustler that goes to prison always has a warehouse full of these cars,because that's where their money is hidden.

nukesec1

So that's what I have to do in order to have my dream car collection.....Be a big time financial hustler? Where do I sign up for that?

Bunser

Get an entry level job in any tax payer funded organization.Work? your way up the ladder and reap (rape) the benefits?
(My (former) favourite uncle retired from GM and then got a Government job. Told me he's never made so much for doing so little!)

wmachine

I share your love of Oldsmobiles, but I do *not* agree with you in the least about this meaning Oldsmobiles are "Bringing More Respect.....". Quite the opposite, really. High prices have proven to be quite harmful to the hobby. Sure there is the initial ego inflation that what you have is valuable to someone else, but once you get past that, it is all downhill. Unless you're selling yours, the higher values are *not* a good thing.
1. The worst thing is that it attracts lowlifes to enter the hobby with the sole purpose of personal financial gain, and that has devastating effects on the pool of cars. Cars are altered, faked, and passed off as something they're not. *Real* histories are destroyed, and a mess is left in the wake. All for personal gain as a result of high values.
2. Higher Insurance rates.
3. Higher restoration costs
4. Higher parts costs
5. Fear to drive or take a car out
6. Costs puts the cars out of reach for lots of true enthusiasts.
I think that's enough, now let's see a list of advantage of high values.
No doubt in my mind that we're better off flying low under the radar, value-wise.

Destructor

Yea, I don't mind the value of my Cutlass climbing but only to the point of being able to get a descent portion of what I've spent on it back if I had to sell it. I would like to get a second Cutlass someday but I won't if the values climb too high. Lucky for me I also like the big old boats, so I would be happy with a Delta 88 or an old Caddy but with a lower demand for those type of cars there will be few reproduction parts available.

Col Wickham

I'm with you Kurt. I was looking for a good mid-late 60's Mopar convertible. Simply couldn't afford one so I looked at the whole range of convertible muscle cars and the Oldsmobile just stood out as the best value for money car out there. I could get a fully restored 72 442 with a number of W options and a 455 with Hurst dual gate, 8-track etc for under $24,000. That sort of money would buy a very ordinary Mopar, GTO, Camaro, Firebird etc.
Ok if it goes up I'll have more money in my retirement savings one day, but right now I'm an enthusiast who can afford a great car and more importantly afford to keep it on the road and in top condition. Better for the breed if they stay within the financial reach of the people who love 'em.

Destructor

I've had people ask me about how and where to buy classic car, I cringe because I know them well enough to know that they have no clue as to how to maintain them, never turned a wrench in their lives, no garrage to store them in and they would probably drive them like a regular car then wonder why it rusted out in a couple years.

Indy_68_S

X2
Couldn't have said it better myself....

wmachine

Don't think for a minute that just because someone has money that they will take care of a car. Or the other way around. This pic is of a very rare Oldsmobile and where it is today. It is owned and stored as you see it by a millionaire who can buy virtually any car he wants. This is no joke.

coltsneckbob

Given the significant amount of money to simply maintain a vintage car it does require that the car's value increase. At a minimum it should increase in lock step (at least over a resaonable period of time) with the maintenance costs. If it did not people would not bother to maintain the cars and they would be lost forever. I understand how you feel about people who care for these time pieces being able to afford them, but ultimately that is a model that will not sustain itself. I am sure there are many passionate art lovers out there that would love a Picasso, or Rembrant. However, if the value of those paintings had not increased, then it is most probable they never would have survived to this day.

wmachine

I disagree totally. What you say means there needs to be financial incentive. That is exactly what is *not* needed, and the beginning of the trouble. A true artist would cringe at what you said.
Okay, sticking with cars, case in point: Customs. I've never been a big fan of customs. But I tip my hat to them and really appreciate them, because they are works of art. One puts more money into them than they are worth. The guys that do that are generally quite aware of the costs and values. But they're not into for the money.
Trust me, there are people that *do* have and maintain cars regardless of values.

J'ville

I was basing my observation off Craig Jackson's comments at the end of the 2010 Scottsdale event. Where (paraphrase) he did say the Olds 442 had come up to the level of the Hemi Cuda after one sold for $202,000 and a couple of others in the $135,000 range. Craig Jackson's point was to illustrate how the field was starting to level and used the 442 as a reference. I do agree that these camera seeking high rollers (and wannabees) do damage to the real world car ethuiest on a modest budget. Another good example of reverse leveling is how far the vaulted Z-28 has fallen. Remember some examples going for $300K early on, now bringing in the range $80K to $120K. Ride on!

toro68

I agree.

coltsneckbob

Kurt, I am certainly on your side with respect to the emotional side......I guess I am just taking a practical view. I do that for 2 reasons. The first is I guess my profession makes me think that way. The other is how I perceive the history of collecting antiques/arts. On ur 6 points I agree with 1-5 and partially agree with 6. So, OK you asked for a list of advantages...let me dare to take a stab

1) If car values are repressed you are correct people will fear less to take them out. The more they are driven the more likely they will eventually be destroyed. It may take years, who knows, but they will be gone.
2) There should not be an assumption that a person who can afford to pay a lot of money is not a TRUE enthusiast. I believe they are in fact very much dedicated to the presevation of art.
3) Through history the artifacts that survive are ones that had ever increasing value. Without that escalation in value people tend not to preserve things, nor restore them.
4) Price increases for originality are good. Otherwise there will be more customization. Thus, we eventually lose the original art.
5) Without higer value there will be no market for parts. So, forget about higher parts prices, because there simply won't be parts to buy.

While not an advantage per se I think there is nothing wrong with looking at these vehicles as investments. People deserve to recoup some value if they are perserving the art.

Col Wickham

You & Kurt both make valid points and I think at the end of the day you're both on the same page.
The beauty of "Investment" in classic cars for the enthusiast (versus the collector) is that you can enjoy your investment in a practical sense.
Over the last couple of years I watched my superannuation / retirement savings drop by 35%, my small share portfolio halve in value and my property value drop by around 20%.
During that time my 69 Road Runner held it's value AND I was able to get out and enjoy it. Try taking your managed funds portfolio out cruising on a sunny Sunday morning.
Yes they cost money to maintain and that's a cost that comes with any investment and with owning a motor vehicle so no surprises there. But if you can afford the cost, enjoy the passion and see some capital appreciation then it's a mighty fine investment option as far as I'm concerned.
My Financial Planner used to worry about me spending money on "left hand drive toys"...couldn't see how it wasn't a waste of money.
Now that his world went pear-shaped and mine didn't he's suddenly interested in "toys" himself.
I think it's inevitable that the ridiculous prices in some areas of the muscle car market will drive the value of 442s up as the more "popular" breeds become unattainable for Mr & Mrs Average.
I also hope that recovering markets will take the focus away from classic cars for the people with money and no passion.

wmachine

Don't agree. Sure there will be some attrition, but the higher values don't really prevent this, it just happens in a different form. A well cared for automobile that is driven can last as long as a museum piece. And bear in mind that we are talking about a wide spectrum of vehicles here that are really in big numbers when you consider all years, makes, and models. And the mechanicals are best used *some* to best maintain them.


Never made that assumption or implication. Of course there wealthy enthusiasts. They've had collections over the years long before values went through the roof. My objection is the legion of the wealthy and profiteers that enter the market due to the high values.

As I said in #2, I think there are plenty of cars that have been (are, and will be) kept and preserved long before values got high.
(Don't get me started on preservation vs. restoration!!)

I believe there is enough of a pool of cars to work with now. I didn't want to get started with preservation vs. restoration, but restoration has already done too much damage to the preservation aspect. The "original art" gets lost with restoration, too.
And there are a lot of cars past the point of restoration and certainly preservation that are fine candidates for customization.

Again, nothing wrong with that in particular. But it is the fallout that comes that is the problem. The fakes, and all of the previously mentioned things are the problem. High values have *not* attracted good caretakers as a whole.

Okay, here is a major point. Yes, they do have to support an aftermarket parts supply.
For sure, I've been attacking the high values. But your are definitely correct that there really should be some sort of monetary value. And the most important reason I see is the need to maintain a parts supply. For debating purposes, yes I've been ignoring the "minimum value" aspect, but I know there needs to be some value there. In fact I think it is appreciably unavoidable.
So where should the values be? I've always thought and still do (more than ever) that they should be valuable enough to support an aftermarket parts supply. But not much more than that.

Glad to debate these points with you, Bob! I think it is a good thing when we exchange points of view. And as the Col says, I know we're not really that far apart when we boil it down.

No debate here! Nice to indulge and keep your investment. Lots of other ways to spend your money with *no* return!

I find this quite amusing.........
For sure as we watched our "traditional" investments take it on the nose, it is nice to know the money put into our Oldsmobiles didn't suffer the same fate, thus dampening our interest in them.
I don't even have to ask Bob to know that he agrees with that too!

coltsneckbob

In fact because of the hit we took on the "traditional" investments....and that the values of these cars didn't as much.......is what I think convinced my wife to literally "force" me to get a W-30 convertible (as opposed to a less expensive 442). Initially from her perspective this was strictly an investment. LOL.....but NOW.....she enjoys going out to dinners in it on nice days and in fact joins me at shows.....and loves to talk to people about it. BUT, she still watches BJ, R&S and Mecum to see what they're going for now.