Compression ratio basics II
November 17th, 2008, 02:09 AM
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Compression ratio basics II
This link http://www.oldspower.com/vb/showthread.php?t=36717 was recently posted on another thread. For reference, it is quoted, in its entirety, in post #2.
Helluva job there, captjim. You only made a couple of errors.
The cam is the center of everything, and it should be chosen to match the car and its intended use. That choice will determine what CR will be used.
Yes. After the engine is disassembled, and hot tanked:
Deck height is measured.
Rod length (center to center) on all 8, noting any differences and marking any that deviate from nominal.
Stroke and clock measurements, are best left to the crank grinder, as he will make any needed corrections, anyway.
As far as I know, domed pistons were never used, in these engines. If they were, a different method would be used to “CC” them, than for the dish.
But not relevant, if the pistons are to be replaced. If they will be re used, they will be measured the same way that replacements would have been. Diameter, dish/dome volume, and pin/compression height (the distance from the center of the wrist pin, to the piston top).
Cylinder taper must also be checked, as the results will determine the diameter of the replacement pistons.
Not even close: The term is, surprisingly, piston to deck.
Deck height, is the distance from the crank centerline to the deck. It is usually measured after the crank (and bearings) are removed, and the block is hot tanked.
If, at this time, the combustion chamber volume is known, all parts (except main and rod inserts) can be ordered, as a kit. The machine work can commence, as soon as the pistons/cam bearings arrive. Main and rod bearings are part of the crank kit.
Must be going to use a “high performance” cam, that will “bleed off” some of that excess cylinder pressure.
A logical first step.
Head flow numbers? Carb? Intake manifold? headers/exhaust system? Trans? Suspension? Tire size? Intended use?
This should have been done and the heads rebuilt, cc'd, and flowed, before consulting the cam grinder. Flow numbers are an important part of a cam choice.
This would be due to a wrong piston choice.
Any competent machinist knows how to choose the right piston for the application.
Didn't you get that .055” number from your first “build” when you cheaped out on the pistons?
Didn't you learn about block decking as a “band-aid” to avoid buying the correct pistons for your application?
I find it interesting, than the author needs to have this operation done when, he said recently:
His "factory heads" would be closer to 70cc, but that is beside the point.
The point is, in the one thread, a .024” piston to deck gave him a 10:1 mechanical CR, but in this one, his “0 deck” results in a 9.7:1 mechanical CR.
Here is the link: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/50016-post19.html
A flat top with a compression height, .0025” shorter than nominal, a deck height at nominal, and a 69cc nominal chamber, would be 9.719:1. Slightly over your goal, but well under your max. Easy enough to bring it down to 9.7, by sinking the valves a couple of thousandths.
If, up to this point, everything was done normally, it would be ready to assemble.
Now the fun begins.
Note: It is being “mocked” instead of assembled.
This is normally done at the same time as the machining process. It is why the engine is normally ready for assembly, when it leaves the shop.
If one has gone to all this trouble, why not “install” the other 4, to take advantage of the average, for more accuracy?
This is very important. If the rings were “installed”, one would not have to “uninstall” the pistons.
This dimension, whatever it might be, would have been known by any competent machinist, before the pistons were ordered. That dimension would have been his main reason for choosing that particular part number.
In this case, those flat tops, at .025” would put the CR at 9.697:1. But, that would be the result of the proper piston choice, for the application.
Variance, due to “production tolerances” in a racing engine, is a “big deal”.
Variance due to the pistons “rocking” because they have no rings, would only cause errors in your measurements.
I'm guessing, that the machinist is laughing his azz off. Behind your back, of course.
As I said before, both are checked after the block is stripped, and tanked. Normally done, when the block is inspected for defects.
To sum up: He has the machine work done, but because he does not know how to do the measurements. He partially assembles the short block, gets a less than accurate measurement, then disassembles it and takes the block back, to the shop. This, so they can finish the work they did not do before, because he did not know how do a few basic measurements.
This “mock up” BS is some really funny stuff.
Know what is even funnier? The “tech department” at OP bought it. Hook, line, and sinker.
Norm
Helluva job there, captjim. You only made a couple of errors.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ It is CRUCIAL in choosing a cam ........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ To insure you get an accurate and true Cr, you must measure everything ........
Deck height is measured.
Rod length (center to center) on all 8, noting any differences and marking any that deviate from nominal.
Stroke and clock measurements, are best left to the crank grinder, as he will make any needed corrections, anyway.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Domed pistons are not used on Olds engines very often as they are designed for very high compression engines ........
But not relevant, if the pistons are to be replaced. If they will be re used, they will be measured the same way that replacements would have been. Diameter, dish/dome volume, and pin/compression height (the distance from the center of the wrist pin, to the piston top).
Cylinder taper must also be checked, as the results will determine the diameter of the replacement pistons.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Deck height, the distance the piston sits in or out of the hole ........
Deck height, is the distance from the crank centerline to the deck. It is usually measured after the crank (and bearings) are removed, and the block is hot tanked.
If, at this time, the combustion chamber volume is known, all parts (except main and rod inserts) can be ordered, as a kit. The machine work can commence, as soon as the pistons/cam bearings arrive. Main and rod bearings are part of the crank kit.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ I want a SBO premium octane weekend warrior, but I want it to idle and have good street manners. So, I am going to target a 9.7-9.8 Cr ........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ My next call is to a vendor/grinder/builder that I trust ........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ for a recommendation on a cam, gear, and converter for a 355 with 9.7 to 1 Cr in a 3600 lb car .........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Next choice, which cylinder head to use? .......
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Many of the low Cr problems come into play because the pistons sit down in the hole as far as .055" ........
Any competent machinist knows how to choose the right piston for the application.
Didn't you get that .055” number from your first “build” when you cheaped out on the pistons?
Didn't you learn about block decking as a “band-aid” to avoid buying the correct pistons for your application?
Originally Posted by captjim
........ That means that the piston is exactly flush with the top of the block at it's point of highest travel ........
The point is, in the one thread, a .024” piston to deck gave him a 10:1 mechanical CR, but in this one, his “0 deck” results in a 9.7:1 mechanical CR.
Here is the link: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/50016-post19.html
Originally Posted by captjim
........ So, enter "0" in the space for "deck clearance". Now, the crucial piston choice. Let's try a flat top. Cr is 10.6, too much. OK, Speed Pro makes a 6cc piston, let's try it. Enter "-6" in that spot. Cr is now 9.9, getting close. Nobody makes an 8 or 10 cc dish, so what can we do? Let's change the deck height to .010 instead of zero. Cr is right at 9.7, PERFECT! ........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Order all the parts, bearings, pistons, etc. Get your block machine work done ........
Now the fun begins.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Once you get them, mock up the engine with the crank in place ........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Have the pistons pressed onto the rods ........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Install 4 piston/rod assemblies into the 4 corner cylinders, #1, #2, #7, and #8 ........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Do NOT install the rings ........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Say that the pistons are .025 down in the hole on average ........
In this case, those flat tops, at .025” would put the CR at 9.697:1. But, that would be the result of the proper piston choice, for the application.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ There may be a slight variance, and usually is, not a big deal ........
Variance due to the pistons “rocking” because they have no rings, would only cause errors in your measurements.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ You want the pistons down .010, not .025. So, you remove everything and send the block back to the machine shop and have the deck milled .015 ........
Originally Posted by captjim
........ I do like having the block milled, then you know that you have a nice flat, square surface ........
To sum up: He has the machine work done, but because he does not know how to do the measurements. He partially assembles the short block, gets a less than accurate measurement, then disassembles it and takes the block back, to the shop. This, so they can finish the work they did not do before, because he did not know how do a few basic measurements.
This “mock up” BS is some really funny stuff.
Know what is even funnier? The “tech department” at OP bought it. Hook, line, and sinker.
Norm
Last edited by 88 coupe; November 17th, 2008 at 02:32 AM.
November 17th, 2008, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by captjim
Compression Ratio basics.
Compression ratio is one of the most important aspects in an engine build. Understanding how to measure it correctly and how to reach a desired ratio is very important in achieving your performance goals. It is CRUCIAL in choosing a cam. In many cases it is overestimated, often times by a lot, as much as a full point. To insure you get an accurate and true Cr, you must measure everything. There are 4 basic factors that affect the Cr.
1) Piston dish volume or dome. A dish will add volume to the cylinder, where a dome will subtract from it. Domed pistons are not used on Olds engines very often as they are designed for very high compression engines.
2) Cylinder head volume
3) Gasket volume
4) Deck height, the distance the piston sits in or out of the hole.
There is a minute volume between the top ring and the top of the piston, but we will disregard that in this discussion as it is a very small amount.
This calculator is very helpful and easy to use;http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
You can use this to get a rough idea of what you need to achieve a desired Cr, or to see what you have already. Most street engines need to be in the 9.0-9.5 to 1 range to work well with today's fuels. Much higher than that, and your tune needs to be perfect or you will experience detonation issues. For a mild engine in a daily driver, 8.5 to 1 will be fine, making a fun, responsive engine that will run on pump gas.
This is how I begin an engine build. I choose a desired performance level. Let's say I want a SBO premium octane weekend warrior, but I want it to idle and have good street manners. So, I am going to target a 9.7-9.8 Cr. My next call is to a vendor/grinder/builder that I trust for a recommendation on a cam, gear, and converter for a 355 with 9.7 to 1 Cr in a 3600 lb car. Next choice, which cylinder head to use? Naturally, the older 350 heads are my first choice. So, I obtain a good solid main web core, from a 71 Delta. Any #5, #6, #7, or #7a head is a great place to start. I take the #7 heads to my shop, get them rebuilt first thing. Hardened seats, slightly larger valves, mild port work, and have spent $700 or so. When they are finished, have the shop CC them (that is, measure the chamber volume). WRITE IT DOWN SOMEWHERE!
OK, lets go to that calculator. Say the heads cc out to 67. Punch that into the formula. The head gasket on a 350 is 4.125 bore and .039 compressed, add those #s into the calculator. We will be boring the engine .030, so the bore will be 4.087, and the stock stroke of 3.385. I really like to zero deck my engines. That means that the piston is exactly flush with the top of the block at it's point of highest travel. Many of the low Cr problems come into play because the pistons sit down in the hole as far as .055". So, enter "0" in the space for "deck clearance". Now, the crucial piston choice. Let's try a flat top. Cr is 10.6, too much. OK, Speed Pro makes a 6cc piston, let's try it. Enter "-6" in that spot. Cr is now 9.9, getting close. Nobody makes an 8 or 10 cc dish, so what can we do? Let's change the deck height to .010 instead of zero. Cr is right at 9.7, PERFECT! So, how do we get that to work??
Order all the parts, bearings, pistons, etc. Get your block machine work done. Once you get them, mock up the engine with the crank in place. Have the pistons pressed onto the rods. Install 4 piston/rod assemblies into the 4 corner cylinders, #1, #2, #7, and #8. Do NOT install the rings. Torque the rods and mains down to the desired specs. Rotate the engine and measure how far from the top of the block each piston is at TDC using a dial indicator or depth gauge. Use a Sharpie and write the # down on each corner of the block. Say that the pistons are .025 down in the hole on average. There may be a slight variance, and usually is, not a big deal. You want the pistons down .010, not .025. So, you remove everything and send the block back to the machine shop and have the deck milled .015. .025 minus the .015 you mill off will leave you with the desired .010 deck clearance. You could also not mill any off and use a .028 gasket and get 9.6 to 1. Or, zero flat top pistons deck and have a custom 8 cc dish milled into them to get 9.7 to 1. You could use a flat top piston zero decked and a larger chambered #8 head and mill it down to 75cc and get 9.7 to 1. There are several ways to get what you need using the 4 basic factors that I mentioned in the beginning of this. I do like having the block milled, then you know that you have a nice flat, square surface, along with fine tuning the Cr.
Compression ratio is one of the most important aspects in an engine build. Understanding how to measure it correctly and how to reach a desired ratio is very important in achieving your performance goals. It is CRUCIAL in choosing a cam. In many cases it is overestimated, often times by a lot, as much as a full point. To insure you get an accurate and true Cr, you must measure everything. There are 4 basic factors that affect the Cr.
1) Piston dish volume or dome. A dish will add volume to the cylinder, where a dome will subtract from it. Domed pistons are not used on Olds engines very often as they are designed for very high compression engines.
2) Cylinder head volume
3) Gasket volume
4) Deck height, the distance the piston sits in or out of the hole.
There is a minute volume between the top ring and the top of the piston, but we will disregard that in this discussion as it is a very small amount.
This calculator is very helpful and easy to use;http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
You can use this to get a rough idea of what you need to achieve a desired Cr, or to see what you have already. Most street engines need to be in the 9.0-9.5 to 1 range to work well with today's fuels. Much higher than that, and your tune needs to be perfect or you will experience detonation issues. For a mild engine in a daily driver, 8.5 to 1 will be fine, making a fun, responsive engine that will run on pump gas.
This is how I begin an engine build. I choose a desired performance level. Let's say I want a SBO premium octane weekend warrior, but I want it to idle and have good street manners. So, I am going to target a 9.7-9.8 Cr. My next call is to a vendor/grinder/builder that I trust for a recommendation on a cam, gear, and converter for a 355 with 9.7 to 1 Cr in a 3600 lb car. Next choice, which cylinder head to use? Naturally, the older 350 heads are my first choice. So, I obtain a good solid main web core, from a 71 Delta. Any #5, #6, #7, or #7a head is a great place to start. I take the #7 heads to my shop, get them rebuilt first thing. Hardened seats, slightly larger valves, mild port work, and have spent $700 or so. When they are finished, have the shop CC them (that is, measure the chamber volume). WRITE IT DOWN SOMEWHERE!
OK, lets go to that calculator. Say the heads cc out to 67. Punch that into the formula. The head gasket on a 350 is 4.125 bore and .039 compressed, add those #s into the calculator. We will be boring the engine .030, so the bore will be 4.087, and the stock stroke of 3.385. I really like to zero deck my engines. That means that the piston is exactly flush with the top of the block at it's point of highest travel. Many of the low Cr problems come into play because the pistons sit down in the hole as far as .055". So, enter "0" in the space for "deck clearance". Now, the crucial piston choice. Let's try a flat top. Cr is 10.6, too much. OK, Speed Pro makes a 6cc piston, let's try it. Enter "-6" in that spot. Cr is now 9.9, getting close. Nobody makes an 8 or 10 cc dish, so what can we do? Let's change the deck height to .010 instead of zero. Cr is right at 9.7, PERFECT! So, how do we get that to work??
Order all the parts, bearings, pistons, etc. Get your block machine work done. Once you get them, mock up the engine with the crank in place. Have the pistons pressed onto the rods. Install 4 piston/rod assemblies into the 4 corner cylinders, #1, #2, #7, and #8. Do NOT install the rings. Torque the rods and mains down to the desired specs. Rotate the engine and measure how far from the top of the block each piston is at TDC using a dial indicator or depth gauge. Use a Sharpie and write the # down on each corner of the block. Say that the pistons are .025 down in the hole on average. There may be a slight variance, and usually is, not a big deal. You want the pistons down .010, not .025. So, you remove everything and send the block back to the machine shop and have the deck milled .015. .025 minus the .015 you mill off will leave you with the desired .010 deck clearance. You could also not mill any off and use a .028 gasket and get 9.6 to 1. Or, zero flat top pistons deck and have a custom 8 cc dish milled into them to get 9.7 to 1. You could use a flat top piston zero decked and a larger chambered #8 head and mill it down to 75cc and get 9.7 to 1. There are several ways to get what you need using the 4 basic factors that I mentioned in the beginning of this. I do like having the block milled, then you know that you have a nice flat, square surface, along with fine tuning the Cr.
November 17th, 2008, 01:00 PM
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BUT since you are able to read that information you must like it over there too, yes?I chuckle at the thought.
I see you are making friends all around. Hey Norm, maybe it's not everyone else... maybe it's you.
John
November 17th, 2008, 01:50 PM
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November 17th, 2008, 02:02 PM
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" Helluva job there, captjim. You only made a couple of errors."
In your opinion. You did not post a single technical error, just what you perceived to be incorrect. In reality, it is just a difference of opinion. I'll address a couple of things, but not every one. I will say that it is easy to sit back and criticize stuff other guys post. And this thread will only intimidate guys who might like to post and add to Joe's "Tech" forum. Why did you not just write your own article, post it beside mine, let the fellas decide who's advice they like? The obvious answer is that you really don't come here to help, just bust ***** and show everyone how smart you are by belittling then. Classic definition of a bully.
First off, I readily admit that I made the mistake of getting short pistons and mis judging my true Cr on that older 355. That is why I mention it often, to save other fellas the trouble of repeating it. Our piston choices are limited.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Domed pistons are not used on Olds engines very often as they are designed for very high compression engines ........
"As far as I know, domed pistons were never used, in these engines. If they were, a different method would be used to “CC” them, than for the dish."
I never said they came from the factory with domed pistons, I said they were not used very often, and they aren't.
I have never had a grinder ask for head flow numbers, ever.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Next choice, which cylinder head to use? .......
"This should have been done and the heads rebuilt, cc'd, and flowed, before consulting the cam grinder. Flow numbers are an important part of a cam choice."
I disagree. With our limited piston choice, it can be easier and cheaper to get the desired Cr by using a head with different combustion chamber size.
"His "factory heads" would be closer to 70cc, but that is beside the point."
I have CCd a lot of SBO heads and none was ever over 68 and as low as 64.5. Just my personal experience, I'm sure there are heads out there that are 70, but IMO if the true # is not known, 68 is a good place to start.
"I'm guessing, that the machinist is laughing his azz off. Behind your back, of course."
You make big fun of my "mock up" process. A lot of what I posted I learned from Mike, the guy who owns the shop. He is an old Carolina boy, was a machinist on Harry Gant's team, worked with Warren Johnson in the days of the Olds Nascar engine, does a lot of road race stuff, was recently in a national rag for a Boss Mustang they race in MCCA, built a 427 side oiler for Carroll Shelby, etc. He likes to mock everything up first, measure twice, cut once. If it is good enough for him, it is good enough for me. We are dealing with 30-45 year old iron here, lots of variances.
Like I said, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I freely hang myself out there by posting this stuff, knowing that you will do things like this. Fine. If it helps one guy, it was worth it. You can keep doing your thing, it only makes you look more and more like the azz that you are. The sad thing is that you really could add a lot to this site, but instead choose to be demeaning, insulting, overbearing, and rude. You consistently throw in jabs and insults, obviously done on purpose.
John (Eightupman), settle one thing for us. I have repeatedly stated that this style of posting was the reason he was asked to leave Oldspower. Norm states vehemently that he left on his own. So, being the big cheese over there, which was it?
In your opinion. You did not post a single technical error, just what you perceived to be incorrect. In reality, it is just a difference of opinion. I'll address a couple of things, but not every one. I will say that it is easy to sit back and criticize stuff other guys post. And this thread will only intimidate guys who might like to post and add to Joe's "Tech" forum. Why did you not just write your own article, post it beside mine, let the fellas decide who's advice they like? The obvious answer is that you really don't come here to help, just bust ***** and show everyone how smart you are by belittling then. Classic definition of a bully.
First off, I readily admit that I made the mistake of getting short pistons and mis judging my true Cr on that older 355. That is why I mention it often, to save other fellas the trouble of repeating it. Our piston choices are limited.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Domed pistons are not used on Olds engines very often as they are designed for very high compression engines ........
"As far as I know, domed pistons were never used, in these engines. If they were, a different method would be used to “CC” them, than for the dish."
I never said they came from the factory with domed pistons, I said they were not used very often, and they aren't.
I have never had a grinder ask for head flow numbers, ever.
Originally Posted by captjim
........ Next choice, which cylinder head to use? .......
"This should have been done and the heads rebuilt, cc'd, and flowed, before consulting the cam grinder. Flow numbers are an important part of a cam choice."
I disagree. With our limited piston choice, it can be easier and cheaper to get the desired Cr by using a head with different combustion chamber size.
"His "factory heads" would be closer to 70cc, but that is beside the point."
I have CCd a lot of SBO heads and none was ever over 68 and as low as 64.5. Just my personal experience, I'm sure there are heads out there that are 70, but IMO if the true # is not known, 68 is a good place to start.
"I'm guessing, that the machinist is laughing his azz off. Behind your back, of course."
You make big fun of my "mock up" process. A lot of what I posted I learned from Mike, the guy who owns the shop. He is an old Carolina boy, was a machinist on Harry Gant's team, worked with Warren Johnson in the days of the Olds Nascar engine, does a lot of road race stuff, was recently in a national rag for a Boss Mustang they race in MCCA, built a 427 side oiler for Carroll Shelby, etc. He likes to mock everything up first, measure twice, cut once. If it is good enough for him, it is good enough for me. We are dealing with 30-45 year old iron here, lots of variances.
Like I said, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I freely hang myself out there by posting this stuff, knowing that you will do things like this. Fine. If it helps one guy, it was worth it. You can keep doing your thing, it only makes you look more and more like the azz that you are. The sad thing is that you really could add a lot to this site, but instead choose to be demeaning, insulting, overbearing, and rude. You consistently throw in jabs and insults, obviously done on purpose.
John (Eightupman), settle one thing for us. I have repeatedly stated that this style of posting was the reason he was asked to leave Oldspower. Norm states vehemently that he left on his own. So, being the big cheese over there, which was it?
November 17th, 2008, 02:03 PM
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" Childish comments, such as yours, are not."
Dude, you are the KING of childish comments.
Dude, you are the KING of childish comments.
November 17th, 2008, 02:08 PM
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Man, I love this ignore list and there is only one person on it.
November 17th, 2008, 02:13 PM
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November 17th, 2008, 02:18 PM
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November 17th, 2008, 02:31 PM
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Oh so sorry, you can do to others, but others not to you? Childish, I think not. Realistic I think so.
My humblest apologies.
Excuse me whilst I push a fellow off the swingset.
Just an FYI for others reading.
While I have no doubt that 88 Coupe has some sort of knowledge or otherwise about Oldsmobiles, either from hands on experience or from what he is willing or able to read, it's the holier than thou arrogant attitude that got him banned from the site he mentioned in his first post. As one can tell he is nothing more than a crap stirrer and offers ZERO viable retalitory information.
My question... actually, is WHY pray tell would someone troll another site, (unwelcomed BTW) and drag crap over to this one?
Originally Posted by Captjim
John (Eightupman), settle one thing for us. I have repeatedly stated that this style of posting was the reason he was asked to leave Oldspower. Norm states vehemently that he left on his own. So, being the big cheese over there, which was it?
He PM's me, (or possibly posted, I don't remember) and told me to basically get bent, and he would answer anyway he felt fit to, and well, I told him he was no longer welcome. I banned him.
I'm going to PM admin here and ask for a removal of this post.... unless you (Norm) would like to just remove this yourself.
John
Last edited by Eightupman; November 17th, 2008 at 05:54 PM.
November 17th, 2008, 05:32 PM
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After your harsh (and as it turns out, unwarranted) criticism of my "mocking" method, I wondered if I was truly doing it wrong. So, I made this post over at ROP, http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=52620
Everybody seems to do it that way. The first response is from John Stolpa, owner of Rocket Racing http://www.rocketracingperformance.com, a VERY experienced builder and racer. Art (Spolds) is well known and highly thought of, Steve is a very experienced racer, and John (small block stroker) is an experienced hot-rodder. Seems that these guys all do it "wrong" too. Interesting.
Everybody seems to do it that way. The first response is from John Stolpa, owner of Rocket Racing http://www.rocketracingperformance.com, a VERY experienced builder and racer. Art (Spolds) is well known and highly thought of, Steve is a very experienced racer, and John (small block stroker) is an experienced hot-rodder. Seems that these guys all do it "wrong" too. Interesting.
November 17th, 2008, 05:47 PM
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After your harsh (and as it turns out, unwarranted) criticism of my "mocking" method, I wondered if I was truly doing it wrong. So, I made this post over at ROP, http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=52620
Everybody seems to do it that way. The first response is from John Stolpa, owner of Rocket Racing http://www.rocketracingperformance.com, a VERY experienced builder and racer. Art (Spolds) is well known and highly thought of, Steve is a very experienced racer, and John (small block stroker) is an experienced hot-rodder. Seems that these guys all do it "wrong" too. Interesting.
Everybody seems to do it that way. The first response is from John Stolpa, owner of Rocket Racing http://www.rocketracingperformance.com, a VERY experienced builder and racer. Art (Spolds) is well known and highly thought of, Steve is a very experienced racer, and John (small block stroker) is an experienced hot-rodder. Seems that these guys all do it "wrong" too. Interesting.
I've flagged this post as a troll. We will see if Admin, or one of the Mods see's what I see. There was no earthly reason to drag info over from another site to bash it here... NONE...
John
November 17th, 2008, 05:56 PM
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I did post a link here, after he hounded me into doing so. But still, it is bad form to bash another Olds site. It would have been enough to just re-print the article and rip it to shreds from there. No need to drag you intoo it.
November 17th, 2008, 05:57 PM
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November 17th, 2008, 06:03 PM
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November 17th, 2008, 06:15 PM
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Ok I'll bite....Yes?
This changes what exactly?
OHHHH dammit Norm, ya got me. You sucked me right in to an interwebz battle. You......you....... silly cheeky monkey!!
For shame on me for goading you on. Childish I am sure. 
I'm out. Got to go throw some sand at some kids...
John
OHHHH dammit Norm, ya got me. You sucked me right in to an interwebz battle. You......you....... silly cheeky monkey!!
For shame on me for goading you on. Childish I am sure. I'm out. Got to go throw some sand at some kids...
John
Last edited by Eightupman; November 17th, 2008 at 06:21 PM.
November 17th, 2008, 06:33 PM
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November 17th, 2008, 06:35 PM
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November 17th, 2008, 07:02 PM
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Does that mean they are not a factor in cam selection?
Why wouldn't I? As posted, it makes no sense.
I wish I worked in a "shop" and could drop names.
Post the quote or the link.
Norm
November 18th, 2008, 04:16 AM
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Would you consider it, an oversight?
Really?
Do you think its not relevant to the process?
Do you like to throw out random info?
Well yes, how about the compression ratio??
So because there are two ideas on how to do something yours is superior, yet both are not wrong?
Where DO you actually "work"?
Would you really discuss, or cut, past and rephrase as a question? (OMG, I'm talking to Alex Trebec!!)
Do you think I really need to?
John
Really?
Do you think its not relevant to the process?
Do you like to throw out random info?
Well yes, how about the compression ratio??
So because there are two ideas on how to do something yours is superior, yet both are not wrong?
Where DO you actually "work"?
Would you really discuss, or cut, past and rephrase as a question? (OMG, I'm talking to Alex Trebec!!)
Do you think I really need to?
John
November 18th, 2008, 04:31 AM
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This has become an internet argument. Nobody that is not personally involved in the argument enjoys reading/observing it, nor do the learn from it. Objectiveness has left the discussion and objectiveness (if not boredom or disinterest) has left the observer as well. Its done.
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