Aceshigh

I figured I'd sample the collective knowledgebase here before I buy anything else.

1970 Olds Rocket 350.
Had a Holley 1850 on it , had issues starting the car in warm weather.
It was a situation where I had to pump it more then a few times.
Then it would fire up, and run VERY weak, bog and die if I didn't keep my foot
on the accelerator for 30 seconds or more. So I rebuilt the carb, and failed.

So I bought a NEW 1407 Edelbrock.
I'm having the same issues. Starting the car in the summer was always a little
harder then I thought it should be. Car runs GREAT once it's warmed up, but I
would have thought in the summer, it would run fine from a dry start with a pump or 2.

So I went a step further, and I installed an electric choke. Didn't do anything.
I'm not sure if I should buy a metering rod kit or not to change the internals out.

Maintenance
I put all new MSD plug wires, plugs, cap, rotor, etc.
I also pulled out a timing light and didn't have much luck figuring that part out
since the balancer mark is kinda a bit past the reader. However, it runs GREAT
after it warms up. So figured that was probably okay ......

I hooked up a vacuum gauge and I got the best possible vacuum I could by adjusting
the idle screws on both sides. I used the Edelbrock Carb Tuning DVD as my guide for
that part and got the best possible vacuum I could which was 13 IIRc. The car runs GREAT
once it's running.....but getting it to start without putting my foot into the pedal and
keeping it there for 30 seconds or more revving it doesn't seem correct.

Any ideas on what I could do ??

joe_padavano

Obviously, you need a Qjet...

(sorry, that was too easy)

I assume you played with choke adjustment? If a car won't start properly when the engine is cold (outside air temp notwithstanding), but runs great when warmed, that's a classic symptom of a choke adjustment problem.

rocketraider

My guess is ethanol fuel may have a bit to do with it too. Me Custom Cruiser doesn't start near as nice as it used to before every gas station around here went to E10.

Seems the fuel terminal in Greensboro NC supplies nothing else now, and non-ethanol gas would have to be transported from Charlotte or Richmond at great expense.

I've noticed that the Cruiser will invariably pick up gas mileage on gas bought in Charlotte for the return trip compared to driving down there on gas bought locally. As in going from 15 mpg to 19.8 on more than one occasion- same route, same speeds, same weather. Same everything except fuel made a 30% difference in fuel mileage.

Your frinedly corn lobby at work!

Aceshigh

Rocket raider you got a point.....that's possible, I guess I should ask other guys in the area that use the
IL gas with 10% ethanol to see if they have the same starting issues. I swear even when I get it started
it just DOES NOT want to stay running without keeping my foot in it for 30 seconds til it's warm.

Doesn't matter if it's 90* or 60* outside either.

Trust me I considered just giving it a shot, but I've blown over $500 to get this
thing running better and I'm still at square one.

Yep, I've tried to keep it all the way closed.
I've tried to wire it open all the way.
I've tried to give it 1/4 of the way open. You name it.

To be honest, it's aggravating the sh** out of me.

69oldsguy

The choke butterfly is only 50% of the equation. Have you checked the fast idle cam? If the screw for the fast idle cam is backed out too far or gone, no high idle. Check there and make sure all is well there also.
It definitely sounds like a choke issue and nothing more. Setting a choke properly has frustrated more than a few people. Keep at it.

Rickman48

In the hot weather around here, engines get pretty hot!
Check your timing - 4 - 6 degrees advanced w/ the vacuum advance unplugged.
Carb adjustment sounds right.
Try Shell 92!
I've had problems with the carb getting so hot, the gas evaporates!
There's a 3/8 in. thick gasket available [for both Holley and Q-jets] that should cure the problem!
If that doesn't work, I'm in your area about twice a week!

Aceshigh

Well I'm on the Western edge of Schaumburg bud.
I need someone who knows carbs and how to tune them properly.
Because I'm not that great at it obviously.

Okay I found an Edelbrock video on this topic. I will try it again, thought I did this before.
But maybe I have it set wrong.

I don't want to spend $200-$300 for someone to "tune" my carb either.....I would rather learn how myself.
So any advice is appreciated , and I'll definitely be taking it to the bank and trying it tomorrow. Thanks.

http://www.edelbrocktv.com/video_detail.php?mId=3281

I didn't think it would be this , because once it's running the idle is perfect.
It's just that initial warm up idle that's horrible

bccan

I think we need "71 Cutlass" to chime in on this. Not trying to be a dick, he swears by this type of carb & may be able to offer some assistance.

71 Cutlass

Well here I am. I assume, bccan will post the same with every Q-Jet post problem on here as well...if so he will be busy.
To the matter at hand. Joe and 69 olds guy seem to be the closest in their diagnosis. Mine has an electric choke and like many others on this site, with this carb,have never had a starting issue. Joe mentioned the choke, that's the first place to start. 69 Olds guy mentioned the fast idle screw, another good place to start. Have you done any internal adjustments at all to this carb, or just bolt it on from the box? (just asking) The videos you mentioned are very helpful. Video should show measurements of butterflies in the "closed" position on the carb when the motor is cold, make sure yours are the correct distance. As far as the ethanol content, we have the 10 percent here and I do not experience any problems at all (I use 93 octane do to my high compression). On the electric choke, there is a way to loosen the three screws that hold the cover on and adjust the choke. Depending on the temperature variance in your area, it has to be adjusted from cold season to hot season. In Texas, b/c there typically is not much variance, I leave mine on the same setting all year long with no problem. Too bad we do not live closer, otherwise I'd be glad to come by and help. One thing I do find curious is that, no matter what carb you used, you are having the same problem (Symtom of some other issue)?. Have someone push the gas pedal down(car off) and look into the carb to make sure a strong shot of gas is getting fed into the carb. Try these steps and lets see where you are from that point.

Rickman48

Ever check the fuel pressure or timing after a complete warm-up?
Fuel pump could be draining the carb if the diaphram is bad.
Timing chains stretch after getting hot, causing a retarded condition.
Fuel line too close to the block can cause 'vapor lock' - move away at least an inch, or insulate .
I've always used 3/8 insulator gaskets under ALL hi-po cars to avoid heat transfer from manifold to carb, and never had a problem!
Holley and Q-jets!

joe_padavano

Whooops! I didn't notice this before. Two options. First, has the balancer ring slipped on the hub? Second, is the timing chain (or more likely cam gear) worn? Sounds like one or the other, either of which may cause a hard starting problem.

Railguy

When I first fired up my 350 I had this same problem.Turned out to be to low an octane.It'd start then shut off had to keep pumping the throttle or it'd shut off and don't even think about putting it in gear on till its up to 140 degrees.Just like you said didn't run right till it was as hot as it was going to get.
railguy

Aceshigh

I really WISH I could post a Gdamn picture of where my mark is, but it's waaaaay past the reader.
I'm thinking like 18-20 BTDC or something at idle. The reader plate only goes to 12 BTDC I believe.....
my motor is NOT stock, it's been rebuilt with more power. I'm clueless as to what cam tho.

I found this post by you in another forum......so I'm thinking I might not be too far off.
http://forums.aaca.org/f136/350-olds-timing-260759.html

My boss is a Mopar guy and was just telling me this , this morning.
He told me to try and mark where the notch is right now AFTER the car warms up.

Then try and turn the distributor a few notches closer to TDC , then let it get cold.
Restart later on to see if it starts better. Obviously this is all seat of the pants troubleshooting here.
I do put 92 octane always in my car.
However, like I said, in IL all grades have 10% Ethanol.

70 cutlass s

Ace does your car have a HEI dist. and a timing tab for a points dist.?

Aceshigh

I do have a HEI distributor.

I don't know where a timing tab for a points distributor would be, or what it
looks like unfortunately to answer that 2nd question. Is there a pic you can post to show me for reference ??

Checked fuel pressure .....No. However, it's only a starting issue, never a problem with a warm engine.
Fuel pump draining.....possible....
I've replaced my fuel line from the pump to the carb with new FI rubber line.
It hangs near the manifold but it doesn't rest on it. I'd say it's over an inch away.
Here's a reference pic of the old setup with the Holley, the fuel line is pretty far away.
NewEngineChrome3.jpg

As for the 3/8" gasket.....
I don't have hard starting issues after the cars warmed up.
Only when it's cold and sitting for a day.


I don't think this could be it, because like I said, after it's hot I can start it easier.

I do have starter heat soak issues because of my headers and on the rare occasion,
the starter just won't even budge. But that's like 1 out of every 15 drives.
I need a starter heat shield for that one or a mini high torque starter.

After 20 minutes I can usually crank it again.

joe_padavano

You did have the vacuum advance line disconnected and plugged when doing this, right?

69oldsguy

Holy smokes. Hey Joe, even if he did have the vacuum line still hooked up he shouldn't see 18-20 deg. advance at idle unless he had no advance springs(or the weakest springs ever). But that can be isolated easily, back the timing off about 10 deg. and see what affect that has on the starting issue. What do you think? It sounds to me like what was mentioned earlier, outer ring on the balancer has slipped. If he actually does have that much advance at idle that would definitely make it really tough to start but not just on a cold start either.

Trying to long distance troubleshoot can be a pain. Critical info can sometimes be missed.

Railguy

I've heard of a back fire throw the carb blowing the power valve.Could that be it???
Railguy

71 Cutlass

If I read the original post correctly, I believe he's no longer using the Holley carb but the Edelbrock. If that's true, Edelbrock 1407 does not utilize power valves.

Rickman48

Have you set the float height? Have seen that be the cause of many unexplainable problems!

I'm not expensive, and I've a 8x8x4 inch box full of gaskets, jets, squirters, pumps, springs, acc. pump ramps, etc.
Know how to check t-chains and balancers, too!

P.M.'d you my # a couple of days ago!

joe_padavano

The E-brock AFB clone, the Qjet, the 2GC, and pretty much every modern carb ever built uses a power valve. Holleys, however, use a rubber diaphragm in their power valves, which ARE susceptible to being blown out. Other carbs use a metal piston and spring.

Yet another way that the Qjet is superior....

(Sorry, but that was WAAAAAAY too easy )

Rickman48

Just looked at the picture hard - thats a FORD carb on an Olds Motor!!!
No wonder it won't work!!
Kidding of course!
Are the grounding straps from the firewall to the heads connected??
They're woven metal, and without them, it causes all kinds of problems!

Had a '69 442 with the same starter problem, until I found and connected them!

Rickman48

Joe - I'm not taking sides, as I've made them both run hard, but Holley re-designed the power valve circiut about 5 yrs. ago so that won't happen!
[30 yrs. late!]
There's pro's and con's on both, and I think they're pretty much even!

71 Cutlass

Power valve issue put another way...Railguy's question was in reference to backfire through the carb destroying power valve, I said the 1407 isn't set up that way or "utilizes" power valves that way (in reference to backfire). Here's the direct quote from Edelbrock website in reference to the carb in question: "They are unaffected by engine backfires, which means that there are no power valves to blow out."
Perhaps another way Edelbrocks are superior as well

In reference to float height. This is set from the factory and if this carb is new, should not need adjusting. You can remove the linkage, torque bit screws,etc. and check the drop levels and make sure they are correct, but I'm betting they are already OK.

88 coupe

Not relevant.

The tab/pointer only shows the position of the crank. It has nothing do with how the spark is triggered.

Norm

bccan

To add to 88 Coupes post - that initial range would be fairly common w/ an HEI, they will usually end up 18-22 btdc initial w/ total timing of 36 +/-.

Still sounds like a choke problem.

Possible fuel drainback issue but I don't see where it would idle poorly for 30 seconds after it starts - still points to choke & fast idle adjustment.

Unlikely to be in pump or lines but they, & distributor are the common denominators. You should buy or borrow a dial back timing light & check your timing properly. While you're at it, map it out & record timing reading every 250-500 rpm so you know what the curve is. Always good to know when you need to diagnose or improve your tune.

Advance / "Dial Back" Timing light examples below. They are not too expensive, I like the digital types because I think they are more accurate but many people far more competent than me have survived for decades w/ an actual dial type. Unfortunately I just sold an old Craftsman Dial back light in near perfect shape to my friend for $10 last Monday. I would think these older analog/dial types would/could be had for cheap ($10-20) on Ebay, CL or swap meets. You just have to watch for them, didn't see any dirt cheap bargains on this Ebay search & the Snap Ons (Mac, Matco) will always be more money than a "lesser" brand, but they will generally prove to be more accurate & tougher than mere mortal brands.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ES-12...sQ5fAutomotive

http://cgi.ebay.com/Snap-Timing-Ligh...item3f0334217e

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Snap-...motiveQ5fTools

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...&blockType=G12

Aceshigh

THANKS !!!! ^ ^That's exactly the recommendations I was looking for ^ ^ !!!

Yes, I did. I am thinking I need one of those timing lights that has the dial back timing setting changes on them....

These do not. 71 Cutlass is right. One of the reasons I wanted the Eddy in the 1st place was
once they're set, they rarely require tweaking to retune them VS others.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-1407/

Edelbrock's Performer carburetors feature two-piece, all-aluminum construction for cooler operating temperatures and less warping.
There are no gaskets below the fuel bowl level for fewer leaks, and no plastic parts or power valves to blow out.

I didn't get a reminder that I had a PM. Thanks for the offer, I'll keep you posted.
I have not set the float height by hand yet since it was a brand new carb.

Figured it would be fine.

Engine runs just fine after it's warm and I have zero electrical issues.
SO I don't think that's going to be the problem, but I will verify they are tight

88 coupe

Not so.

Refer back to the original statement:
This is a reference to power (Once called "economizer") valves, as used in other carb (including your AFB clone) designs.

Not so.

Refer back to his original statement:
Which he corrected, but not until after joe_p addressed it.

The "misquote" of his own statement (the part after "I said") notwithstanding, it would be a "stretch" to call it a clarification.

That any carb "goes out of tune" is just one of many internet myths.

Sales pitches such as these tend to capitalize on, if not originate some of those myths.

This particular pitch assumes:

1. That all other carb bodies are not cast aluminum.
   Not true.
   
   
2. That gaskets on all other designs are leak prone.
   Not true
   
   
3. That "plastic parts" are actually a problem.
   Not true.
   
   
4. And that Holley power valves "blow out" for no reason.
   Not true in the real world, but exceptions must be made for those "tuning experts" who would create the conditions for it to happen.

Norm

Railguy

I don't know anything about ethanol blended gas,but I think I'd dump a couple gal.of 116 in and see what happens.Seams like a pretty cheap thing to try.If your tank is low wouldn't even take that much.

71 Cutlass

Norm,
At least 3 things incorrect in you post(opinion piece). Would be specific, but I know the game that follows next.

Aces, you picked a good carb. Mine has 70 thousand miles on it and never given me ANY trouble whatsoever.