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I'm planning to look at a '69 442 located not too far from me that has a bench seat and column shifter and am wondering if anyone has an opinion on the degree to which that would reduce the value of the car vs the same car with bucket seats and floor shift in the center console, all things being equal. Would I prefer bucket seats and floor shifter? Yes, however there are so few 442s coming up for sale anywhere near me here on the left coast where I can actually take a look at the car without booking an airline flight (I have a fear of flying, claustrophobia problem) that I feel I need to keep my options open even if it's not 100% exactly what I'm wanting. I'd consider a short flight as long as I can medicate myself, but flying to the east coast where most of the cars for sale seem to be is out of the question. What I find appealing about this car is that it appears to be all original with no modifications as best as I can tell without having seen it yet. I guess my question is: If everything else is right about the car except for the bench seat/column shifter, should I let that get in the way of buying the car? It's probably a matter of opinion, and there will be some on both sides of the fence, but has anyone dealt with that before, and if so, how did it turn out? Thanks!
Depends upon the buyer. I’d never buy one but some folks would. But then again, I'm not buying a car for its "classicness" or collectability, so in that regard I'm prolly in the minority.
Last edited by Fun71; April 29th, 2022 at 12:56 PM.
I sold a nice 70 high option car, bench seat column shift auto, 20 years ago. Sold it on 442.com, guy bought it , never came to look at it, I sold it for what I wanted, in no time, I also bought the car on the spot when I saw it, I was looking for bucket seat 4 SP, but when I saw it, I bought it, because it was nice, and a good price. You can all ways change to buckets.
I'm planning to look at a '69 442 located not too far from me that has a bench seat and column shifter and am wondering if anyone has an opinion on the degree to which that would reduce the value of the car vs the same car with bucket seats and floor shift in the center console, all things being equal. Would I prefer bucket seats and floor shifter? Yes, however there are so few 442s coming up for sale anywhere near me here on the left coast where I can actually take a look at the car without booking an airline flight (I have a fear of flying, claustrophobia problem) that I feel I need to keep my options open even if it's not 100% exactly what I'm wanting. I'd consider a short flight as long as I can medicate myself, but flying to the east coast where most of the cars for sale seem to be is out of the question. What I find appealing about this car is that it appears to be all original with no modifications as best as I can tell without having seen it yet. I guess my question is: If everything else is right about the car except for the bench seat/column shifter, should I let that get in the way of buying the car? It's probably a matter of opinion, and there will be some on both sides of the fence, but has anyone dealt with that before, and if so, how did it turn out? Thanks!
You didn't specify, but:
1. A three speed on the column standard shift is rare, and a lower option. Other than being rare and neat in an odd way, a 4 speed is higher performance and valued more. Pay more for 4 on the floor than 3 on the tree.
2. A column shift automatic will perform the same as a floor shift automatic. A properly adjusted transmission will outperform someone shifting the valve body. A dualgate is worth more. After that, I believe it is user preference. Since you are BUYING, sure, try to talk him down on the column shifter bench seat. Bench seats hold one more passenger, you can sprawl more, and the girl can wiggle on over.
3. Some people can't leave well enough alone, so bench/column to bucket/console is a straightforward change that you could do if you decided you must have such a setup.
I'd buy the car, try to knock off a little for the column shifter, but buy it regardless if it's a good car and you like it.
Many folks love the look of buckets etc, but love the functionality of bench with a column shift.. personally if the car is very nice and compared side by side, apples to apples there would be a small difference in retail pricing. My opinion.. say 5-7%. Many people buying these cars are getting older and prefer auto to manual, even bench to bucket.
Last edited by Andy; April 29th, 2022 at 01:04 PM.
you could do what I did on my '72 - trade the bench for factory buckets and add a factory console without the shifter. I had a full top plate repro'd to replicate a 1-of-none
factory install
I get questioned at many cruise ins whether it was came that way new... I don't miss the bench but not really motivated to convert over to floor shift - maybe one day or maybe not....
It all depends on what the seller is asking for the car. Is the price already based on it being a bench seat car? If it's a good deal and you like it buy it.
I think it's because I know I could pull the car over and get out whenever I want, but in a plane I'm crammed into a small area with nowhere to go, and I feel trapped. I know it's weird, but I avoid flying which annoys the heck out of my wife.
Cars tend to be very clean out west.
You can always convert to bucket seats with or without a console.
The floor brackets for the inner bucket seat mounts are reproduced as are the console brackets and wire harness.
It's not a difficult job. About 2K nowadays to do it.
If you find a solid car buy it.
This is the '69 442 bench/column car that I'm going to look at tomorrow morning. The Craig's List ad doesn't have that many pictures, so I'll find out more about the condition when I see it. Owner says he bought it from an estate sale in Missouri with the intention of restoring it, but doesn't have the time. He says it's all original. Hopefully, the link works. It's my first time trying to do this, so my apologies if it doesn't. It's on Craig's List for Sacramento, CA '69 442
Honest opinion. Thirty Grand and zero drivetrain pictures. Believed to be 49k actual? Then show me the before pictures. Obviously a re-paint with incorrect stripes. I say don't get caught up in the polished pretty of it. I will never ever pay good money for a car without proof. Before during and after pictures are one hundred percent necessary for me. Separates the BS real clear.
OK, so black stripe is not factory, right? Is that what gives it away that it's been repainted? I've learned a lot on the forum here, but I guess that one got by me. Is the black on the hood not original, as well? The seller did mention that he has a build sheet for the car, so I'll have to check that out tomorrow. Any other suggestions about the car are welcome. Thanks for the heads up on the paint.
OK, so I just went back and looked at a bunch of online 442 pictures, and the only side stripes I saw were on W-30 442s, and the stripe through the body is higher up at about mid-wheel opening. So, yeah, stripe was added at some point. I'm wondering if the white exterior paint could be original, and the black was added to "dress it up". The seller said he was guessing that the mileage is original because he ran a compression test, and the cylinders were showing compression readings, depending on the cylinder, just north or south of 200, and in his opinion, it would be less if the mileage was 149,000. I'm not a mechanic, so I don't know if that is true or not.
Last edited by dsp52; April 30th, 2022 at 08:48 PM.
Reason: add information
The 442 emblem on the decklid is incorrectly placed.
I'm not sure about this, so this is a question: Is it correct to have the "S" emblem on the interior door panels on a '69 4-4-2? My '68 4-4-2 does not have them.
I don't think the emblems on the interior door panels are an "S". I think there Rocket emblems. As far as the decklid, I'm not sure about the 442 placement, but in going back to a lot of online pictures, I didn't see any 442 decklids with an Oldsmobile emblem on the lower left area of the decklid like this one has. I will be checking the VIN and data plates, so we'll see what that turns up, if anything. I will try to inspect it very carefully, but who knows, maybe it's a fake 442, although he claims to have the build sheet.
It is a Sharp Looking Ride that looks to be in pretty good condition, that is for sure!! I hope it works out for you! The Fisher Body data plate (cowl tag) is likely to have 336 (Olds Cutlass) as the leading digits, rather than 344 (Olds 4-4-2). This is well known on the Lansing cars and nothing to be alarmed about. So long as the VIN itself starts with 344...as described in the documentation, you are golden.
It looks to be in nice condition. But, as noted the real question is, is it a real 442 or not and the 334 vin will answer that. Also check the vin for the build sheet. It may not be for that car. I have a bench seat column shifter and have thought of converting it many times but honestly I enjoy the bench.
It looks to be in nice condition. But, as noted the real question is, is it a real 442 or not and the 334 vin will answer that. Also check the vin for the build sheet. It may not be for that car. I have a bench seat column shifter and have thought of converting it many times but honestly I enjoy the bench.
Steve
Steve meant "...344 vin..."
You are welcome. It took me by surprise when I first learned it. I believe only the Lansing cars suffered this abnormality of the data plate.
The emblem placements on the trunk lid would lead me to believe possible trunk lid replacement. Should not have the Oldsmobile script. 442 emblems are not quite right. I would check really close for rear end damage. Like possibly overly thick splatter paint in the trunk. Check frame. Check the underside of the deck lid etc.
Last edited by no1oldsfan; May 1st, 2022 at 07:46 AM.
I'm just back from looking at the car, and here's what I found. The good first. The engine has a matching vin derivative number to the car's vin# and it has the correct "C" heads with casting #394548, so that's good. Seller has a broadcast card that matches the car vin#. The exterior color is the original color, I think, and the car's black interior is original insofar as it's black. Data plate shows #50 for Cameo white with a "B" for the roof. It seems like the vinyl roof, if original, would be a number code, I'm not sure. Only other number besides build date (first week of March) is the trim code, 940, for the black seats. I don't know if that also denotes the bench seat or not. I couldn't get under the car to check the tranny, but based on how it wasn't winding up when I drove it (no tach to check rpms), it's probably the standard 3.08, I think, rear end that comes with the A/T with A/C. The interior isn't too bad, actually. The only thing I saw that needed repair was the lighter was disconnected for replacement, and it was hanging by it's wires on the floor. Seats were good, headliner was pretty good, and dash looked pretty nice, overall.
The paint was so-so. It was good at 15 feet, but is a little faded. Exterior trim chrome was good in some places and not so good in a couple of spots. There was not much, if any, body filler in the exterior panels, and there was minimal rust underneath the car as far as I could see without raising the car up. There was no rust on the under sides of the doors, rockers, fenders, or quarters that I could see. The not so good: The bumpers were rusty and pitted on the top surfaces but would need to be re-chromed at some point to look nice. The deck lid has damage on the right side about mid-way between the trunk lock and the 442 emblem. That doesn't show up much in the online ad photos, but in direct sunlight it's extremely noticeable. The left rear has an Oldsmobile emblem that doesn't belong there that is attach with bolts into holes in the deck lid. It's probably a replacement deck lid as mentioned by no1oldsfan. What's funny is it's slightly crooked in my thinking, and there seems to be an extra unfilled hole nearby. I thought, maybe, it was originally one of those mid-west dealer name plates that they like to put on cars to advertise where the car was purchased, but I would have thought those would be adhesive, but maybe not. Both rear quarter panels have been replaced. I found the seams and welds up under the upper inside of the quarters in the trunk. The trunk pan looked like it may have been replaced at some point, so I'm guessing the car was rear-ended which explains why the deck lid doesn't look right. Rear tail light chrome surrounds are very pitted and would need replacement to look nice. The vinyl top doesn't look too bad, overall. It's a little faded but not brittle, so maybe a vinyl re-conditioner would help. There were a few spots at the lower edges that were coming loose that would look way better if they were glued back down. There was quite a bit of wet oil on the bottom of the engine. I'm not sure where it was coming from, exactly. The oil pan gasket looked like part of the problem, but I'm not sure if it's responsible for all of the oil I saw or not. I took the car for a test drive, and the suspension felt pretty good, overall, the steering felt good, but the brakes were terrible. The car turned severely to the right when the brakes were applied which tells me the left front brake was not working nearly as well or at all compared to the right front brake. It has drum brakes at all four corners. The power steering box or gear box thing (sorry, I'm still learning) at the bottom end of the steering shaft was really covered in wet oil or power steering fluid. This car would be good, I think, to restore for someone that wants to start with a fairly structurally sound car to begin with. It needs a few things, but it seems pretty solid overall if you don't mind the quarter panel replacements and maybe the rest of the rear-end that may have been replaced. Exterior wise nothing really shows except for the deck lid damage. I'm going to pass on buying it because it has a little bit too much needing to be done, and I'm not excited about the seller buying it from Missouri and then reselling it within a short period of time without having done anything to it. I'm not sure if there's something lurking there somewhere that he neglected to tell me about. Also, I wasn't wowed by it enough to want to tackle the work needed.
Last edited by dsp52; May 1st, 2022 at 03:42 PM.
Reason: mis-spelling
You did your homework, and a sound facts-based decision was made based upon your inspection. Good Work. Keep looking - I'm sure you will find the *right one* for you!
The vinyl roof code of "B" means it came with a black vinyl top. The 940 trim code means black interior with the bench seat.
Your question on value is interesting. I have a '68 4-4-2 convertible, provincial white with black top and interior, that has been in my family since new. I have all the critical documentation, including the original window sticker, from new and it won Best Of Class at the 2011 OCA Nationals in Reno in the all stock class. I worked hard to make its restoration as "perfect" as I could. I had to replace some of the parts under the hood (water pump, distributor, carburetor, alternator and starter) but those replacement parts are all numbers correct with build dates consistent with the build date of the car. But it's a bare bones 4-4-2 with bench seat, THM transmission on the column, power steering, power brakes, remote side mirror, W36 stripe, 3.08:1 limited slip differential and not much else. It's probably considered rare as I just have not seen any other '68 4-4-2 convertible with a bench seat and have only heard of 5-6 others like it. It's a car that does great at Oldsmobile shows but doesn't win anything at local car shows. I suspect its value would be hard to break $45K.
I also have a '69 4-4-2 convertible (same color combination as the holiday coupe you saw today - cameo white with black top and interior). It's loaded with buckets, console, THM 400, disc brakes, original SSI wheels that are somewhat rare as there was a somewhat limited production of the '69 SSI wheel that would fit disc brakes, A/C, power antenna, power trunk release, AM/FM stereo, power steering, power brakes, 3.23:1 anti-spin differential, factory cruise control, custom sport steering wheel, rally pack, W42 hood stripes, and shoulder belts for the front seat passengers (rare for a convertible). Lots of options but probably not that rare except for the shoulder belts. Needless to say, this car wins trophies at local car shows. The down side - it's just a driver. It's all numbers-matching but the work I did on it just doesn't measure up to what I put into the '68. I think the '69 would probably go for more than the '68 even though the '69 is just a driver because of the attraction of all the options and, specifically, bucket seats and console over the bench seat.
My heart is with the '68, though, since it has been in the family since new. And, I must admit, when the wife and I go for a drive, it sure is nice to have her belted in sitting next to me rather than on the other side of the car!
Thanks, Randy, for the comparison. It's interesting how your two different cars can be perceived in different types of shows. Personally, I'm a purist and value the originality of a car vs any mods, but I know a lot of people don't care about that which is fine for them, I guess. I look at these classic cars as a form of art, and I don't like the idea of tampering with them much. But, to each his own. I just hope that eventually I'll be able to find a car I like that is also a car I can afford to buy. So far, that hasn't happened, but I'll keep searching until it does.
I'm fatter than I should be and 6'4". I fit onto the power bench in my Chevy A body and the manual bench in my 67 442, than I do in the bucket in the 72 H/O. I think the power tracks can go lower, and I am not a console guy. I'm used to the foot wide cushioned console in my Tacoma for my right elbow, and the H/O's small plastic console lid feels a little close. I'm sure if I lost weight it would be a better fit.
I mirror your decision on the car. Thirty Grand for a 69 is pretty much high dollar. That car better be no questions at that price. So many trying to jump the Oldsmobile wave right now. I had a feeling that car had rear end damage or rust/replacement parts. Good call.
I did, but he didn't have any. It was kind of funny when I told him the quarter panels had been replaced and had him stick his head in the trunk to show him the seams and welds. He acted rather surprised. I asked him if he bought the car sight unseen, and he said that all he looked at were online pictures. I think he might of gotten bit by that old "pig in a poke" thing.
April 29th, 2022, 10:20 AM
