Auto Transport fire questions
June 22nd, 2009, 07:29 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10
Auto Transport fire questions
Purchased a classic Olds from California, to be delivered to Texas. Seller set up transport thru broker he has used many times before, but this one went bad. Transport driver:
1) Let battery run down by leaving key in Acc position for 2.5 days in transport.
2) Had no working winch, so tried to jumpstart it while car was on upper rack of his carrier.
3) Could not jumpstart it with his boost pack, so hooked up to both the boost pack *and* a nearby vehicle (4 cables on battery at same time). When that didn't work, hooked up to bystander's vehicle.
4) Engine cranked, then immediately caught fire. Driver had no extinguisher, so burned for 2 min before we could retrieve one from nearby.
I'm not going to go too much into specifics, but I'm hoping some knowledgeable people on here can answer some questions for me to get my attorney pointed in the right direction - as you can imagine, this isn't something he deals with every day.
Questions:
1) Anyone know for certain if car carriers are required to have operable winch? I have been told this should have all been done on the ground. Have Googled to find requirements, but we're not finding it. Can you point me to regulations?
2) What about working fire extinguisher?
3) Paint on hood and fenders is bubbled. Car had been in storage for a long time. May be original paint, or was high-quality repaint done some years ago, but has obviously faded some from original. Was in excellent condition when shipped. Can a good body shop match the paint so you can't tell it's been repainted? I don't want to ask for a whole-car repaint unless I have to, as that would definitely be a disputed item, but also don't want to end up with a patchwork car.
4) Driver volunteered (in front of witnesses) that he was driving 48-72 hours at a stretch without sleeping. Aren't car carriers required to maintain same rest requirements as other truckers? (If it matters, this was a superduty pickup pulling 4-car carrier.)
Don't want to go into too much detail here, in case this ends up in court, but am looking for some starting points. My attorney is out of the country this week, but if I need to bring my attorney into this, it's not an area he's familiar with. (But if there's a type of attorney that would specialize in something like this, that would be interesting to know as well.)
Thanks,
Mike
1) Let battery run down by leaving key in Acc position for 2.5 days in transport.
2) Had no working winch, so tried to jumpstart it while car was on upper rack of his carrier.
3) Could not jumpstart it with his boost pack, so hooked up to both the boost pack *and* a nearby vehicle (4 cables on battery at same time). When that didn't work, hooked up to bystander's vehicle.
4) Engine cranked, then immediately caught fire. Driver had no extinguisher, so burned for 2 min before we could retrieve one from nearby.
I'm not going to go too much into specifics, but I'm hoping some knowledgeable people on here can answer some questions for me to get my attorney pointed in the right direction - as you can imagine, this isn't something he deals with every day.
Questions:
1) Anyone know for certain if car carriers are required to have operable winch? I have been told this should have all been done on the ground. Have Googled to find requirements, but we're not finding it. Can you point me to regulations?
2) What about working fire extinguisher?
3) Paint on hood and fenders is bubbled. Car had been in storage for a long time. May be original paint, or was high-quality repaint done some years ago, but has obviously faded some from original. Was in excellent condition when shipped. Can a good body shop match the paint so you can't tell it's been repainted? I don't want to ask for a whole-car repaint unless I have to, as that would definitely be a disputed item, but also don't want to end up with a patchwork car.
4) Driver volunteered (in front of witnesses) that he was driving 48-72 hours at a stretch without sleeping. Aren't car carriers required to maintain same rest requirements as other truckers? (If it matters, this was a superduty pickup pulling 4-car carrier.)
Don't want to go into too much detail here, in case this ends up in court, but am looking for some starting points. My attorney is out of the country this week, but if I need to bring my attorney into this, it's not an area he's familiar with. (But if there's a type of attorney that would specialize in something like this, that would be interesting to know as well.)
Thanks,
Mike
June 22nd, 2009, 09:44 AM
#3
car guy
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 5,656
Carriers insurance is where to start.....if he has any. DOT regulations should apply but many of those guys run without DOT and try to stay under the radar.
Not sure about the fire extingisher laws but my guess is DOT requires it. There is nothing to say that a winch is required. Many guys won't carry an INOP car don't ever have winches.
If you happen to be in DFW I can come look at the paint and let you know if its realistic to match it or not.
PS I get transport damaged cars in all the time at work and it seems to take forever to get paid by the insurance companies they use. This is 18 wheeler 10 car type carriers that don't thank about how a 3" tree branch hanging down can do 5000.00 worth of damage to an SUV a 45mph.
Not sure about the fire extingisher laws but my guess is DOT requires it. There is nothing to say that a winch is required. Many guys won't carry an INOP car don't ever have winches.
If you happen to be in DFW I can come look at the paint and let you know if its realistic to match it or not.
PS I get transport damaged cars in all the time at work and it seems to take forever to get paid by the insurance companies they use. This is 18 wheeler 10 car type carriers that don't thank about how a 3" tree branch hanging down can do 5000.00 worth of damage to an SUV a 45mph.
June 22nd, 2009, 10:32 AM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Overton NV
Posts: 1,728
Purchased a classic Olds from California, to be delivered to Texas. Seller set up transport thru broker he has used many times before, but this one went bad. Transport driver:
1) Let battery run down by leaving key in Acc position for 2.5 days in transport.
2) Had no working winch, so tried to jumpstart it while car was on upper rack of his carrier.
3) Could not jumpstart it with his boost pack, so hooked up to both the boost pack *and* a nearby vehicle (4 cables on battery at same time). When that didn't work, hooked up to bystander's vehicle.
4) Engine cranked, then immediately caught fire. Driver had no extinguisher, so burned for 2 min before we could retrieve one from nearby.
I'm not going to go too much into specifics, but I'm hoping some knowledgeable people on here can answer some questions for me to get my attorney pointed in the right direction - as you can imagine, this isn't something he deals with every day.
Questions:
1) Anyone know for certain if car carriers are required to have operable winch? I have been told this should have all been done on the ground. Have Googled to find requirements, but we're not finding it. Can you point me to regulations?
2) What about working fire extinguisher?
3) Paint on hood and fenders is bubbled. Car had been in storage for a long time. May be original paint, or was high-quality repaint done some years ago, but has obviously faded some from original. Was in excellent condition when shipped. Can a good body shop match the paint so you can't tell it's been repainted? I don't want to ask for a whole-car repaint unless I have to, as that would definitely be a disputed item, but also don't want to end up with a patchwork car.
4) Driver volunteered (in front of witnesses) that he was driving 48-72 hours at a stretch without sleeping. Aren't car carriers required to maintain same rest requirements as other truckers? (If it matters, this was a superduty pickup pulling 4-car carrier.)
Don't want to go into too much detail here, in case this ends up in court, but am looking for some starting points. My attorney is out of the country this week, but if I need to bring my attorney into this, it's not an area he's familiar with. (But if there's a type of attorney that would specialize in something like this, that would be interesting to know as well.)
Thanks,
Mike
1) Let battery run down by leaving key in Acc position for 2.5 days in transport.
2) Had no working winch, so tried to jumpstart it while car was on upper rack of his carrier.
3) Could not jumpstart it with his boost pack, so hooked up to both the boost pack *and* a nearby vehicle (4 cables on battery at same time). When that didn't work, hooked up to bystander's vehicle.
4) Engine cranked, then immediately caught fire. Driver had no extinguisher, so burned for 2 min before we could retrieve one from nearby.
I'm not going to go too much into specifics, but I'm hoping some knowledgeable people on here can answer some questions for me to get my attorney pointed in the right direction - as you can imagine, this isn't something he deals with every day.
Questions:
1) Anyone know for certain if car carriers are required to have operable winch? I have been told this should have all been done on the ground. Have Googled to find requirements, but we're not finding it. Can you point me to regulations?
2) What about working fire extinguisher?
3) Paint on hood and fenders is bubbled. Car had been in storage for a long time. May be original paint, or was high-quality repaint done some years ago, but has obviously faded some from original. Was in excellent condition when shipped. Can a good body shop match the paint so you can't tell it's been repainted? I don't want to ask for a whole-car repaint unless I have to, as that would definitely be a disputed item, but also don't want to end up with a patchwork car.
4) Driver volunteered (in front of witnesses) that he was driving 48-72 hours at a stretch without sleeping. Aren't car carriers required to maintain same rest requirements as other truckers? (If it matters, this was a superduty pickup pulling 4-car carrier.)
Don't want to go into too much detail here, in case this ends up in court, but am looking for some starting points. My attorney is out of the country this week, but if I need to bring my attorney into this, it's not an area he's familiar with. (But if there's a type of attorney that would specialize in something like this, that would be interesting to know as well.)
Thanks,
Mike
1) not necessarily, no
2)Yes dot regs mandate a functioning fire extinguisher, but a guy way outside of normal circumstances will not likely think of it.
3)a good body shop should be able to convincingly match or blend the paint into the doors where you will not be able to pick out the repair, or the blend. Done often in the shop I used to work at.
4)A carrier in a superduty if he is operating under a dot authority is required to hold to the same regs and rules as we are (class 8 otr trucks) but are often overlooked at the scales. This will not help you in your sitation as this was not an "accident" in the traditional sence. That said, it sounds like a pretty cut and dried situation. The carrier signed for the car...he is responsible for the condition of the car while it is in his possesion. You had not recieved the car yet as it was still on the carriers trailer. You did not sign off on it as recieved in good condition yet had you?
You should not need a lawyer on this, most carriers carry heavy duty cargo insurance to cover situations like yours, myself included. The carrier will be required to pay a deductable and I guarontee it will be more that what he might have made on the haul, but then the insurance company will be taking over from there. As long as you are not trying to claim anything outside of the dammage that was incured in the fire you should recieve a check for dammages quickly. Who was the carriers ins co? We don't need to know the carriers name just the ins co.
I am sorry to hear about the loss and hope everything goes as it should in making reparations. Keep in mind that sometimes s&^t happens. Admitidely what the driver did was not what I would have done, but he did not deliberately dammage your vehicle, and I am sure he is feeling likr doo doo over it over and above the cost to him. No professional likes to screw up, but it happens. If I can help with anything else just let me know.
P.S. Welcome.
June 22nd, 2009, 11:27 AM
#5
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10
That said, it sounds like a pretty cut and dried situation. The carrier signed for the car...he is responsible for the condition of the car while it is in his possesion. You had not recieved the car yet as it was still on the carriers trailer. You did not sign off on it as recieved in good condition yet had you?
I have faxed him written notice of intent to file a claim, so I don't get hit by missed deadlines, but is there any way to get this information when he won't answer the phone? Does he have to register his insurance with the state or federal regulatory folks?
June 22nd, 2009, 01:32 PM
#8
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10
June 22nd, 2009, 01:37 PM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Overton NV
Posts: 1,728
Thank you very much for your input. I have talked to you and one other reputable car carrier who say it should be pretty cut-and-dried, but the owner/driver in this case has so far flatly refused to provide his insurance information. He says his insurance only covers body damage and says this is internal. He is claiming that the seller loaded the vehicle with an undisclosed fuel or oil leak and that the fire had nothing to do with the jumpstart. (The seller has extensive photos of the engine compartment prior to the sale, and had a mechanic check it out a couple of hours before it was loaded, so that story isn't going to fly, but it does seem that he's going to make this a pain in the ____.)
I have faxed him written notice of intent to file a claim, so I don't get hit by missed deadlines, but is there any way to get this information when he won't answer the phone? Does he have to register his insurance with the state or federal regulatory folks?
I have faxed him written notice of intent to file a claim, so I don't get hit by missed deadlines, but is there any way to get this information when he won't answer the phone? Does he have to register his insurance with the state or federal regulatory folks?
Pm me for contact info, might be easier to hash things out face to face so to speak.
June 22nd, 2009, 05:02 PM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Greater Philadelphia, PA area
Posts: 171
The best way to handle this is to get your insurance co. involved (you did have your own insurance on the car prior to it being put on the carrier right?). Then they will go after the insurance co. on the carriers / brokers end.
This process will not cost you anything if you have a case such as yours. This subrogation process is completed all the time by ins co. and will save you much time in the upcoming months if you try to fight this on your own with your lawer.
Trust me, look into it - at least call your ins. co and talk to them you will be happy you did.
Ben
This process will not cost you anything if you have a case such as yours. This subrogation process is completed all the time by ins co. and will save you much time in the upcoming months if you try to fight this on your own with your lawer.
Trust me, look into it - at least call your ins. co and talk to them you will be happy you did.
Ben
June 23rd, 2009, 06:19 AM
#13
The best way to handle this is to get your insurance co. involved (you did have your own insurance on the car prior to it being put on the carrier right?). Then they will go after the insurance co. on the carriers / brokers end.
This process will not cost you anything if you have a case such as yours. This subrogation process is completed all the time by ins co. and will save you much time in the upcoming months if you try to fight this on your own with your lawer.
Trust me, look into it - at least call your ins. co and talk to them you will be happy you did.
Ben
This process will not cost you anything if you have a case such as yours. This subrogation process is completed all the time by ins co. and will save you much time in the upcoming months if you try to fight this on your own with your lawer.
Trust me, look into it - at least call your ins. co and talk to them you will be happy you did.
Ben
June 23rd, 2009, 06:59 AM
#14
Trying to remember member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,112
The best way to handle this is to get your insurance co. involved (you did have your own insurance on the car prior to it being put on the carrier right?). Then they will go after the insurance co. on the carriers / brokers end.
This process will not cost you anything if you have a case such as yours. This subrogation process is completed all the time by ins co. and will save you much time in the upcoming months if you try to fight this on your own with your lawer.
Trust me, look into it - at least call your ins. co and talk to them you will be happy you did.
Ben
This process will not cost you anything if you have a case such as yours. This subrogation process is completed all the time by ins co. and will save you much time in the upcoming months if you try to fight this on your own with your lawer.
Trust me, look into it - at least call your ins. co and talk to them you will be happy you did.
Ben
Yeah, the American way........
Sure, go ahead with this if you're more interested in paying lawyers than getting a settlement.
June 23rd, 2009, 07:57 AM
#15
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cabin John MD
Posts: 79
Lets not fry the insurance company yet. Sounds like the operator has not even reported to his insurance company. To legally operate the driver would have had to purchase an auto liability insurance policy to pay for damage he does to other autos on the road not the cargo he is towing. He would have need to purchase an additional policy to pay for the damage to the towed autos.
From your account, the operator is liable for the fire. He would not have let anyone else drive the car onto the trailer, so he left the key on and killed the battery, then he improperly jumped the car until the battery caused a fire. The potential for oil or gas leak would be always present in cars and he admitted to knowing about this leak. Then he should have taken additional precautions to prevent the fire. You have sufficient facts to prove fault.
Your options are
1) If you have your own physical damage insurance, report it to your carrier, they will pay the loss minus your deductible then subrogate the againt the operator. If your insurance company wins they will send your money back. This is the BEST OPTION. Least hassle for you, get your your money the quickest. Down side possible rate change especially if you have filed other losses in the past 3 year.
2) Go to the operator by yourself. This is the second best option and if you do not have your own insurance an option you may have to take. If you do this, you want to talk to the operators insurance company, not the operator. IF you get hold of his insurance carrier and he has the correct insurance (both big if's because it sounds like he is being difficult), the insurance company will review the loss whether the operator wants them to our not. The operator does not have to be the one that reports the loss you can do this. BUT his insurance company's job is to defend the operator and not you. If the operator weaves a story that makes him not at fault, the insurance company can decline based on the operator story. If you have a disinterest witness, this would be a great benefit to you in helping prove fault. If the operator has coverage, and they believe your story over the operators, they will pay you loss even if the operator does not want them to.
3) Get an attorney. Problem is not only the problems in #2 above but you will have to pay the attorney. If you have a $5000 loss the cost of the attorney may not net you very much. The operator does not owe you for the cost of the lawyer. Unlike a bodily injury claim where you can collect for pain and suffering, a property loss is a property loss. Does not increase except for interest over time.
I can go on but was getting long winded enough.
From your account, the operator is liable for the fire. He would not have let anyone else drive the car onto the trailer, so he left the key on and killed the battery, then he improperly jumped the car until the battery caused a fire. The potential for oil or gas leak would be always present in cars and he admitted to knowing about this leak. Then he should have taken additional precautions to prevent the fire. You have sufficient facts to prove fault.
Your options are
1) If you have your own physical damage insurance, report it to your carrier, they will pay the loss minus your deductible then subrogate the againt the operator. If your insurance company wins they will send your money back. This is the BEST OPTION. Least hassle for you, get your your money the quickest. Down side possible rate change especially if you have filed other losses in the past 3 year.
2) Go to the operator by yourself. This is the second best option and if you do not have your own insurance an option you may have to take. If you do this, you want to talk to the operators insurance company, not the operator. IF you get hold of his insurance carrier and he has the correct insurance (both big if's because it sounds like he is being difficult), the insurance company will review the loss whether the operator wants them to our not. The operator does not have to be the one that reports the loss you can do this. BUT his insurance company's job is to defend the operator and not you. If the operator weaves a story that makes him not at fault, the insurance company can decline based on the operator story. If you have a disinterest witness, this would be a great benefit to you in helping prove fault. If the operator has coverage, and they believe your story over the operators, they will pay you loss even if the operator does not want them to.
3) Get an attorney. Problem is not only the problems in #2 above but you will have to pay the attorney. If you have a $5000 loss the cost of the attorney may not net you very much. The operator does not owe you for the cost of the lawyer. Unlike a bodily injury claim where you can collect for pain and suffering, a property loss is a property loss. Does not increase except for interest over time.
I can go on but was getting long winded enough.
June 23rd, 2009, 09:26 AM
#17
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,301
June 23rd, 2009, 11:27 AM
#18
car guy
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 5,656
I looked at it today. I don't see any signs of leaking fuel or oil lines that caused this. Its simply a matter of having filled the intake with gas when trying to jump a dead battery off over and over again. The guy should stick with EFI cars to haul. Its not too bad but it did burn a lot of stuff in the engine compartment and there is fire extinguisher residue everywhere. Its got a decent driver quality paint job on it that should not be too hard to match. My biggest concern is if the hood warped or not. Its going to be tough to find a clean 442/F85 hood if one is needed.
June 23rd, 2009, 01:12 PM
#20
car guy
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 5,656
June 23rd, 2009, 01:25 PM
#21
Past Administrator
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Rural Waxahachie Texas
Posts: 10,010
I just read this entire thread before heading home from work. Man, it just put me in a crappy mood. I am really sorry about your mis-fortune and hope you can end up with a repaired car that you will enjoy driving. Good luck.
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