mid60soldsfan

I recently purchased a 1965 Oldsmobile 442 motor complete with A/C compressor, mounting brackets, 3 groove pulley, 2-groove A/C Delco alternator and distributor. I'm quite excited...it is in beautiful condition with little to no corrosion or signs of shade tree tinkering. I found a couple of interesting markings and would like to verify their authenticity/specificity to Oldsmobile and the 442 model. All the block, manifold, and head casting numbers are correct for a 1965 442. While degreasing the engine, I found a white "V" on the oil pan (see photo) and I was wondering if this designated a 442 motor, similar to the "V" prefix on the passenger side machined surface of the front head? Also, the Fridgidaire A/C compressor has a small, partial yellow stamping on the side that has "Old" and some numbers (diameter about the side of quarter). Does this designate an Oldsmobile version of this item? The carb appears to original (Carter WCFB?) with small numbers on one of the base tangs...is there a number/code that I can look for to determine if it is correct?

Thank you very much! Keep Oldsmobiling....

joe_padavano

FYI, the Carter AFB is not factory and is definitely a sign of "shade tree tinkering".

CRUZN 66

Carb is definitely not correct and I even question the intake as not being a 65... Can't tell for sure from the photo whether or not the intake is correct for what should be a coil mounted choke housing... If it has a choke heat tube mounted in the intake it is not correct for 65....

joe_padavano

I'm guessing the AFB is replacing the original 4GC square-bore carb. 1965 was the only year that Olds used a square-bore intake on a BBO, so if it's really a square bore intake, it's a correct 1965 intake.

Edit: If you zoom in on the first photo, you can read "4439" on the runner behind the carb. The casting number for a correct 1965 square bore intake is 384439, so I'm sure this is an original intake.

Octania

Good call on the "V"
Document the heck out it with photos.
Once cleaned and painted all the originality is gone.

kjr442

very cool find.

66-3X2 442

The markings on the A/C compressor say OK final test OLDS

Octania

"similar to the "V" prefix on the passenger side machined surface of the front head?"

So, what is the Engine Unit Stamp on the front of the RH head?

I would like to see the date codes of the major castings, just for posterity and general knowledge.

Block, by distributor, looks like 1-319
Intake manifold
Heads
Water pump
exhaust manifolds

Maybe the fuel pump is still in place and has the embossed AC logo and a stamped in app'n #?

67442nut

Weren't the '65 rocker arms shaft mounted?

nsnarsk65cutlass

I believe '64

Koda

Ed, I believe the A heads were such. I think the 65s and 66s had B heads, the 67s had Cs, and the 68s went to the other 400 with C heads, which makes the 67s the best till 70, and those of us who like them Princes Among Men, or something like that.

oldsmobiledave

No. A heads in 65. B heads in 66.

Koda

Duly noted, thank you.

oldstata

Here is a pic of mine for reference

0CC2F440-8A10-43C7-86EB-CB314C5A3B19.jpg

66-3X2 442

Some 65 442's came with B heads.

joe_padavano

The only second-gen Olds heads to get shaft-mounted rockers were the 1964-only no. 1 heads on the 330. No BBO heads ever got shaft-mounted rockers. The 1965 "A" heads did get the 3/8" rocker studs, however.

oldsmobiledave

Educate me...show me proof. Thanks.

Even so do you agree that the vast majority were A heads?

66-3X2 442

I have no idea how many were made with either head. Check out this site and look under the head info tab. I found two 65 442's in a guys yard in GA. years ago and the patina suggested they were original untouched cars and both had B heads on the engines. I would imagine that the heads were changed to the B heads sometime during the year model run because of going to the later design rocker assembly.

http://www.442bro.com/

More proof.

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofhed.htm...Identification

oldsmobiledave

Thanks for the info. Looks like later built 1965 442s could have & did come with B heads instead of the more common & early used A heads.


Thanks

joe_padavano

While I have also heard that "B" heads were phased in during the 1965 model year, I wouldn't use the Olds FAQ as "proof" of anything, given the many known errors it contains.

Once again, it is just a compendium of listserver posts with no fact checking whatsoever.

66-3X2 442

I don't think it was just a 442 deal either. As the info showed,425's also had them. So I'm guessing they went to the B head during production for all BBO. Your welcome.

66-3X2 442

I understand but with my experiences are that I have seen them on 65 model cars pretty much tells me they came on them. I could ask the question on Jasen's site but I really don't care if they did or didn't. All I know is 66's had them and we all know a 65 442 is no match for a 66.

66-3X2 442

Doesn't mean it's wrong either,right?

joe_padavano

That rationale isn't exactly "proof"....

And yes, there are many instances of the FAQ definitely being proven wrong.

Proof in the Oldsmobile arena needs to be factory source literature. Anything else is anecdotal and thus not "proof". Yes, even that isn't perfect, as we've seen, but it is what the cars were designed and built to. Obviously some equipment changed over the course of a model year, but this would have been documented in factory-authorized revisions to documents, or bulletins. Not all of this info is in the public domain, and thus not all of it is completely known, but it is the best available.

66-3X2 442

As with most of the info for these cars,it comes from personal hands on experience. I think I have a pretty good knowledge of 66's and there is some things that were changed on the assembly line that isn't published anywhere. All I'm saying is,the proof is in the pudding and the ingredients in the pudding comes from many sources. Dave asked for proof and I provided all I could find from the net. Had I not seen 65's with B heads,I wouldn't argue the point. This is why I very rarely respond to questions or comment on a topic because I have to spend time defending or explaining my comments. I can guarantee one thing,if I post something about a subject,I'm pretty damn sure I'm right because I don't talk to hear myself. If I'm not sure or do not know the answer,I keep quite or will admit I do not know.

joe_padavano

Nothing I've posted has been a criticism of your personal experience. I even agreed with you about the use of B heads in 1965. My whole point was about the unreliability of the Oldsmobile FAQ. As someone who was there when it got created, I've posted many times about how that process took place, especially the lack of proper fact checking.

Once again, I wouldn't ever use the Olds FAQ as "proof" of anything. It is not an official Oldsmobile data repository, nor has it even had the same level of fact checking as, say, most Wikipedia articles.

66-3X2 442

I didn't take anything you said as questioning my experiences. All I was saying,what do we do when trying to verify a particular subject? If a website has the info even though it might not be reliable,do we not bother to quote it or do we use what info it has? If we were trying to launch a rocket(no pun intended) and needed some info,a unreliable source might make a difference. We were talking about the use of a cylinder head which I don't think qualifies as the same as launching a rocket. So if the info is incorrect,so what,no harm no foul. I do agree that there's a lot of bad info on that site but that info coupled with my personal experience leads me to believe this time,the site is correct.

joe_padavano

That's a reasonable question, and unfortunately there's no good answer. Personally, I'll trust factory source documentation the most (CSM, parts books, dealership literature), but we know that even factory documents have been shown to have errors, or updates as offered equipment was changed over the course of a model year. I agree that much of the info on the FAQ IS correct, but since it's at best a third-generation source (and in most cases, worse than that), I still wouldn't point to it as "proof" to back up a statement I had made.

66-3X2 442

I'll give a very good example of a change made during production that has never been documented to my knowledge. In 66 sometime during May they started putting 67 left front filler/inner fender panels that had the indention for the P/B booster. The PIM/assembly manual only shows the 66 part #'s for them. The parts book still showed the 66 left part # for a while even after the change was made on the line. I've looked at a lot of 66's and every one that was pretty much untouched/original had the 67 panel and had a May or later build date.

Rocketguy

A long term OCA member and '65 B head owner is John Galehouse. His car was used in the centennial parade.

One thing that may shed some light on the '65 B head subject is the date when K19 K20 became mandated in CA. A heads did not have the AIR boss but B heads did, therefore, the system could not be fitted to A heads.

66-3X2 442

Good info Rick & that sounds like a very good possibility.

2blu442

Well, I feel like we're getting off topic but in the spirit of information sharing I wanted to post pictures of some A heads with AIR bosses cast into them. I have a pair of V code heads dated 174 and a single M code head dated 31 that have them. Due to my location probably half the cars I come across are Fremont built cars, so that may have something to do with me having these heads.
John

DSCN5411.jpg

DSCN5419.jpg

66-3X2 442

OK,another piece of the puzzle,thanks.

joe_padavano

Well, it would have had to have been documented someplace. The problem is that those particular documents haven't surfaced to date. You'll note that the drawings in the PIM often have revision letters showing running changes (standard practice on engineering drawings). The change in part no. and configuration on the assembly line would have had to have been documented in engineering drawings or associated change documents (called Engineering Orders, or E.O.s). Unfortunately, we don't know if the PIMs that are commercially available have the very latest versions of the associated engineering documents or not. The engineering department would have had a configuration management function whose job would have been to record these changes and serial number or date effectivity. Unfortunately, I'm sure those records are long gone.

Rocketguy

Very cool. Thanks for posting the pics as I had never seen a set. Perhaps because I've lived within an hour of Lansing my whole life. Now I am wondering if K19 -20 would have had any bearing on the B head '65 BB.

Octania

2blu, you beat me to it
I have photos stashed of A heads with A.I.R. bosses, taken from a set here in Lansing. Feller named John I believe.

Quite a rare combination of features.

2blu442

What's the date code on yours Chris? Also the application? The pair I have came off a 442, but the single has a stamped code starting with M. I also noticed that the 6 digit number cast over the center exhaust ports has an additional letter. A for drivers side, B for passengers side. Maybe we need a new thread to see what kind of information we can collect on these heads. Who else has them, date codes, application codes, etc.? John

mid60soldsfan

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, appreciate the insight into various codes/IDs. I took some additional photos of what appear to be colored paint "daubs" that I'm attributing to assembly check/verification markings - three colors: pink (across and above the freeze plugs on both sides of the block), white (driver side lower end of the motor) and red (near the dip stick). What was really interesting was the amount of the block that had no bronze paint - raw casting - maybe 15-20% - including the back of the oil pan. My guess (again, if anyone knows I'd appreciate details) is that it was painted while assembled and areas with no paint were obstructed by something. While rummaging through a box, I found what I believe is the original carb (Rochester Q-Jet) along with the starter motor and misc. bolts, etc.

To the individual who asked about numbers and IDs, here's what I've found:

Heads: A Code 383821
Block Casting No.: 389298
Intake: B Code 384439
Head stamp (front passenger side): V001128
Rear bottom of motor stamp: 7735
Oil pump: 5573410 "Replace with AC PF 7"
Rear top of motor casting ID (by distributor):
1
311

oldstata

These were painted with valve covers intake,trans,starter motor, distributor and water pump installed
That's a pretty late block most I have seen have been 120 ish 311 I wonder if that is near the start of 66 year

Per bros Julian date chart 311 = November 07 1965

TK-65

That head is early, the V code is 1128.

The 311 is 1964, not 1965. The carb is a Rochester 4-Jet. Not a Q-jet.

Rumor is 442 production didnt start until November of 1964. So the car that came in was built early in the 1965 model year (calendar year 1964).