http://www.uniquemankato.com/web/use...sota/18345538/

I have a guy asking me to assess it from afar.

I see a real 442 with a bunch of reproduction? W30 items- the readily available stuff- and a W30 trans out of some other car according to the seller and the VIN stamp on it.

Motor is 1975 issue
heads mismatched J & G or Ga
Block VIN stamp now matches car but poorly done by hand.

MANUAL drums brakes

any way to tell if it was ORIGINALLY a W30?

 

I can tell you that drivers side wheel house is most definitely the lousy reproductions.....(before) they re-tooled the cruise control transducer hold down (squares) to look more authentic but I can still spot a reproduction inner fender from OE even after the retooling on that drivers side cruise control mounting area.

Definitely re-pro red inners on that 70 Chris.

 

Thanks

here was my assessment:

"Here is a real 1970 442 Convertible M code built in Lansing MI where all the W30's were built.
It is 1 of only 2,922 convertible 442's built in 1970. It has great Rally Red paint with Black
Legendary interior and a near new black convertible top. The engine is a rebuilt F code 455 CI
engine with factory Ram Air and Ram Air air cleaner. It also has big valve heads as well as the
original factory aluminum intake. Power is transferred by turbo 400 transmission with
"his & hers" dual gate shifter. This olds is riding on BF Goodrich radials & 14x7
matching SSII rims. Some other options include sport mirrors, 4 spoke steering wheel,
power steering and air conditioning. If you're looking for a some real muscle from the
70's, in a convertible to boot, look further..."


Please note that "all W30's were made in Lansing" is NOT the same as "all Lansing built 442's, or even this one, is/are W30[s]"


The chance of having a big valve J head is about zero, unless a really competent machinist did the heads, and fitted the larger valves. No way to prove valve size w/o dismantling.

"Rebuilt Engine" might be a good thing, or a very bad thing, depending on what was done, and by whom. Any compression or cam specifics, or paperwork? Why not use E heads per 1970 442, or a set of my replica F heads?

Intake may or may not be factory; reproductions are readily available, same for air cleaner and red inner fender liners.

The His/Hers shifter is a good feature. May have been added though.

Ha ha, a typo?:
"If you're looking for a some real muscle... look further... "
Not "look NO further..."?

the carb number is 7045282 ZP = 1975 Pontiac [google "carb 7045282"]

5483529 oil fill = 1975 Olds engine
The cast-in #'s by the distributor on the back of the block would be like:

3
123

or

4
185

where the "3" or "4" is [perhaps] the year of the catsing, starting with
1 = 1967 calendar year for 1968 model 455's,
2 = 1968 calendar year for 1968 and 1969 model year, etc.

The "123" or similar is the Julian day the casting was made

I think the car showed up about 2 yrs ago as an estate sale 442 convertible, and somebody gussied up the top and paint, fixed up whatever 455 was available, then added a lot of repro W30 parts and is passing it off as "it is what it is, I dunno..."

no numbers on water pump = generic aftermarket unit

AC car but poor man's car otherwise? Does not add up.
no posi ??
AM radio
no gages
manual windows
no tilt
MANUAL DRUM BRAKES ?! [Granted, my '68 W30 AT has manual drums... and W30's may not have been available with power brakes in 1970, so that might explain the manual brakes - if it is a real W30]

poor attn to detail
rust - $1000 more work would have done the frame to perfection.
frame should be clean and pretty for this kind of money

washers incorrect/ missing on manifolds

hose clamps or lack of, radiator, PCV hoses, etc.

Oil pan is beat up and has wrong drain plug.

Engine VIN stamp is not right at all - misaligned, some but not all are 2 or 3x hits, spacing varies, may or may not match actual VIN

no # on WP means low budget rebuilt, not NOS or real factory part

air cleaner and intake look too new to be anything but recent reproductions.
starter and alt probably not right #'s

OAI not hooked up - a simple vacuum hose!
Hot air not in place for air cleaner
cheap radiator cap
plastic window top - why?

If the _Trans VIN STAMP_ matches the car's VIN then it IS a real W30 and the whole game changes.

Rear end is a proper type 12-bolt as near as I can tell, and need not be posi to be a real 442 part, but of course posi is better. Can you find out the rear end gear ratio?

For VIN 344670M17xxx2, the stamp on the DRIVER side of the trans, and the engine pad, would be:
30M17xxx2 - the model and body style "4467" is left out. The cowl tag pic I lost but I think the build date was like 10B which would be early production - October [10], 2nd week [B].

 

Agreed...
"Here is a real 1970 442 Convertible M code built in Lansing MI where all the W30's were built. It is 1 of only 2,922 convertible 442's built in 1970".

That statement and the money says to me hes not representing it as a W30 and he knows that. And the fact that he says 1 of 2922 (should be 2933) and hes not hes listed it as 1 of 3100 total W30s or one of only 168, 4467, W30 rag autos says its just what you see.

The monkey business with the stampings would force me to see, touch and feel in person to verify legit 442 lineage.

Assessed from afar: A nice driver 70, 442 auto, rag. 1 of 2336.
We all know without the docs its often hard to prove providence.

 

I agree, he does not state that it is a W30, just that it was built in Lansing, as all W30 were. Dual gate was an option on all autos, 442, W30 or otherwise. Paperwork? doesn't appear so, run away!

 

Chris, all 1970 W-30s with A/C were required to have power brakes. So if this is an original W-30, that means someone either added A/C or stripped the power brakes.

Also, all 1970 W-30s had front disc brakes (whether power or manual). There is a possible window of exception in that very early in the year a disc brake delete option was offered. However, the factory documentation shows that this option was itself deleted earlier than the earliest known W-30 build date. I'm not saying it isn't possible that one or more disc-brake-delete W-30s were built, but I'd like to first see the car (none that I know of) and then see some documentation.

 

I don't believe that statement is true. On 1970 W-30s, power brakes were only available if you ordered the AT (and thus got the 285/287 cam), but the converse is not true.

 

The cynic in my reads the ad copy as the purposely misleading statements that it is. The lawyers made sure it does NOT say the car is a W-30. It implies it, or at least hints that one could pass the car off as one.

 

This 442 is not being advertised as a W-30.

 

From what I see, there is a lot rusty nastiness and poor bodywork in those rear quarters.

 

The asking price alone virtually eliminates this car as a factory built W30 convertible. As far as assessing the validity of the W30 parts goes - the honest truth is that there isn't much there to begin with, and what little is there, you can't discern much of anything from the pictures provided.

There is a little fumble-rooskie play on words going on there by the seller meant to hook a naive buyer.

As Stefano says above though, this car is not actually being represented as a legitimate W30.

 

I agree. Buyer beware.

 

"this car is not actually being represented as a legitimate W30. "
============================

In much the same way that the recent HURST/OLDS ad mentioning GEORGE HURST every other phrase didn't quite claim that the car was all that and a case of oil. Just lots of irrelevant references. The ad should say, in plain English, "factory 442 with numerous reproduction W30 package components" or something like that.

 

^ Bingo!

 

It is not saying that is a w-30, but it sure does imply it.

 

So, the guy looking to buy is worried about the red one above

Found a white Linden NJ built car
more $
similar issue with W30 wannabe-ness but really just a 442
that car's seller will not come up off any numbers and is so bad at reading casting ID's that the "W" manifold was reported as an "E" casting. So, facts are hard to come by. Forget block date, dist or carb numbers, VIN stamps, etc.

SO...
Anybody know of a car this buyer can look into?
I gather it _must_ be

1970
442
convertible

after that, the closer to stock and correct and well numbered, the better.

I assume he wants a car ready to drive and not a project that needs paint and whatnot.

 

Octania, I know of a triple black 1970 442 convertible that MIGHT be going on the market soon. It is not a W30. From what I have been told by the owner it is a very nice 1970 442 convertible that has been shown and judged at Oldsmobile Nationals more than once and done very well. The car has had a color change from one of the golds to black. Not 100% sure, but if I remember right, the car is also a ram air car.

I do not know yet what his asking price will be, I have not tried to pin him down on that. Probably won't be cheap, but then high quality 1970 442 convertibles never are.

The big question is, what is your man's budget?

If you'd rather not give that out in an open forum, you can send a PM.

 

Ken, watch for that

I sent this to the buyer:

"Bare minimum numbers for ANY such car, to warrant an in-person inspection:

The VIN
The body tag
engine VIN stamp
trans VIN stamp

engine block casting ID
block date code next to distributor
oil fill tube stamped number
carburetor application number and date, LH side, rear corner, like 7040251 etc.
Distributor application number and date, at base of cap, like 1111971 0H2 etc.

heads' ID letter and/or 6-digit # [only the large letter is really necessary]
heads' dates if visible

Intake manifold casting ID letter and/or 6-digit # [only the large letter normally needed]
Intake casting date, usually on heat crossover, between carb and head, LH side

Trans Tag letters and numbers, such as "OG" and "70 OG 1001" or similar

Differential GEAR RATIO. This is absurdly simple for amy competent mechanic to ascertain.
Presence of positraction within the final drive, and if so does it work [turn both wheels]
Axle ratio CODE STAMP typically on the RH tube, upside down, a few inches outboard of the pig.

Note that rare and pertinent items such as distributor and carb are sometimes restamped to appear to be valuable items that might match a certain car. When in doubt, have experienced experts look at the numbering and assess its originality. "

 

Given how easy it is to turn an "E" into an "F", I'd be sure to check the six digit casting number on the heads in addition to the large letter. There was a "W-30" for sale at Carlisle a number of years ago that had "F" heads with the E-head casting number.

 

No fender brace bolts, not a W car.

 

Excellent advice Joe.

Do not just take a quick glance at those F heads. Look carefully for any signs of grinding all around that letter area. And as Joe says, it is imperative that a prospective buyer verify the six digit casting number on the "F" heads of any car being represented as W30. Another telling thing to look for on those F heads are the cast in ribs on the end of the heads; no ribs there, be very skeptical.

Over the last two years I have personally seen three different "all correct" 1970 "W30s" sold at big time auctions, two at Barrett Jackson, and one at a Mecum auction, with "F" heads that were actually E heads with the bottom leg of the E ground off to make them appear to be correct F heads. While looking at one of those cars before it hit the block I was pointing out the ruse to one of my friends, a number of other guys around the car took interest and listened in as well. Unbeknownst to me the owner/seller of the car was behind me; he was none to happy with me pointing the deception out to all that cared to listen...if looks could kill.

 

Except when its a W-convertible of this generation.

 

Good valid points, thanks
please remember that the buyer is looking for a real 442, need NOT be W30.

It just seems that anymore ALL the "just 442" convertibles have been half-W'd

Red inner fenders, OAI hood, sometmes the air cleaner. Like the red car.

So if he finds the OG trans, iron intake, correct carb, corerct E heads... that's a great start.

 

Amateurs
I change the 6-digit to match also. It is supposed to look like it's right, unless closely inspected.

Underside repeat of casting number final three is unaltered.

 

Looking at another
Body tag says 34267...

"34267" is CUTLASS, not 442. Pretty sure that by 1970 the body style on the 442s' body tag said "344..." even for Lansing cars.

Anyone can confirm this?

 

Chris,
You are correct about the 442 vin & body tag starting with 344.
Also, can I bother you to send me the pulley chart again please?

 

Damn lying sellers
it's on feepay with 30k BINow
as a real 442

please send an EMAIL to me with request for pulley info
then I can easily reply

change 443 to the obvious correct # then use
RocketScience443@hotmail.com for the the request.

 

Originally Posted by BlackGold
Chris, all 1970 W-30s with A/C were required to have power brakes.
Joe, check out the description for C60 in the Salesman's "pocket" book:
"....Available with W30 only with M40, G91, and JL2."
(emphasis mine)

You'll find the same thing on the Dealer Order Form.

 

No way this car ia a W30. It is, however, a 442. The car is a VIN 344 car making it a 442. Looking closer, the car had a 1995 Oldsmobile engine, two (2) completely different heads, neither of which were E or F heads, a Pontiac carb, and a Pontiac transmission. The car physically looked good, but beyond being a 344 car, very little original 1970 442 left!!~!

 

And ready for this!! The car was first seen advertised in Florida. The sales person told me that besides the "original aluminum Oldsmobile intake manifold, the car had "F" heads, protecto-plate, and plenty of service records. I asked more than once if he was sure that the car had "F" heads, and more than once I was told absolutely. The next day, according to the saleperson, the car was sold. I was very suspicious, because of the timing. About a week or so later, the car was sold at an auction and landed at it's current place of sale.

 

Octania, I am always in awe of your Olds knowledge. You too Joe. It just blows me away. i read here daily, learning. But, are you guys saying my Cutlass S is NOT a W-30 car? Just asking. I mean, it has the red fenders and Ram Air.

 

No, I did not say that
Unless your car is a 1970 model.
In the photos I see a '68 or '69 model
'68 headlights but the radiator top plate looks wrong- maybe not HDC?

In that year range, with all the W30 cars built in Lansing, they used Cutlass bodies, w/o regard for what the body tag said... so to sum that up:

68-9 Lansing built 442's with the "344..." VIN, including the W30 models, will bear a Cutlass Body tag showing body style such as "36xx" or similar, not "44xx" as may be found on 68-69 "344..." 442 cars built in Canada, Linden, etc.

Anyhow, for many years w/o a W30 definition in the VIN, all the W30 parts can be added to any 442 [edit- was "w30"- oops] and then voila' it is a W30 by any inspection or measure. So, having red inner fenders and OAI by no means proves it came that way. It is more of a sum total of evidence and what can be proven about what the car ISN'T. In your case, I have only what I can see in the small photo above. I see lack of Heavy Duty Cooling which I *think* was required with the OAI package. Of course, those too are all parts that simply unbolt and bolt in, therefore maybe it used to have HDC but now the parts are different... The air cleaner is red base/ black top vs the original black base/ chrome top. Might be a home made unit- can't tell with little detail in the photo.

btw, our new member 'twilightblue28A' [welcome Harry] has an intersting theory or explanation for how LINDEN, NJ came to be annotated as "E" in the VIN sequence.

 

BTW: there was a drum brake "option" for 1970 model year for cars with manual disc brakes! It is option code JL7, "front disc brakes, manual, delete". It was created by Dale Smith cause the drum style brakes could be "backed off" to create no drag of the braking system. Some racers claimed as much as 3 or 4 hundredths reduction in their ET s. That equates to a 1/2 fender or full fender length ahead at the lights!


You will not find this code JL7 in any sales info. It is listed in the "Inspectors Guide" booklet only. A "Service Bulletin" and "Sales Information Letter" was sent to dealers announcing it's availability.

 

DaveB, thanks for posting. Actually, the JL7 Disc Brake Delete option was documented in a couple other places, including the August 1969 version of the Salesman's book that you might see in your dealer's breast pocket. Check out this previous thread:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-question.html


Have you ever seen a 1970 W-30 with JL7? As discussed in the older thread, I don't think any W-30s were built before they pulled the option -- or at least before they stopped advertising it. I'm sure racers could get anything through the back door.

 

Now THAT is a tidbit of info right there.

opt out of disk brakes for a slight additional edge in acceleration.

Wow.

The knowledge base here astounds even me.