twilightblue28A

Thank you again 70 POST,

​​​​​I appreciate your interest. It's hard to believe that not one of our members has provided a broadcast card for a 1970 442 W30 convertible, automatic transmission, built in the final quarter of 1969, with the W30 option identified on the build sheet, notwithstanding your stats!! Further, no one, so far, has explained why the build sheet would or would not identify the reasoning why or why not the W30 option is or is not identified.
I appreciate your interest and look forward to your photograph.
Thanks again!!
​​​​

​​​​​

stevengerard

Dave, I thought this as well, and although I was only 6 at the time I figured it mattered for the W30 emblems to be punched. BUT... no 442s got the side moldings in 70, only the Cutlii did, correct? So any 442 or w30 would have the same body trim except for the added W30 emblem on the front fender. And a W31 could have been an F85 or a Cutlass correct?

stevengerard

Mine was built 11/18/1969 still looking for the info, I'm thinking it may be in my safe deposit box.

Stefano

GM Historical / Olds Heritage Docs show that W-30 Production began in October of 1969. Also Fischer Body needed to differentiate the W-30 option on the 442 model and that is why W-30 was necessary to designate on the broadcast card, for the additional punched holes in the fenders and paint stripes.

I do not believe that there are any "documented" W-30s which exist built prior to October. You may correct me if this info is not accurate.

stevengerard

Anyone know why teh designation was printed in different boxes of the broadcast card. I usually see it in box #3 but have seen it in #4 and #9

70Post

Well.....if that person were "you" (in the figurative sense)....would the "you" do that IF they were in the subset of "no W3O" printed on the card"???? Again, the odds are further tilted (against you). Many folks would think to themselves...."I'm not going to claim I have a '70 W30 and then, in the same sentence state I have my broadcast card BUT it doesn't have W30 printed on it". All on a public forum that the whole world can conceivably see.

That could easily be construed as a statement against their own interests.

Said another way....making that disclosure "in public" is pretty much all downside with little or no upside from what I can tell.

Carshinebob

Just to clarify. Olds final assembly was responsible for the frame, drive train, front clip and stripes. Fisher Body was only responsible for the body, firewall back. So in other words all the W-30 stuff was Oldsmobile not Fisher Body. So I've always thought that Fisher Body didn't need to know if it was building a W-30. ~BOB

twilightblue28A

To be clear, I am the prospective buyer. I am not minimizing the significance of documentation and the effect on the cars value. Can anyone provide a broadcast card for a 1970 442 W30 automatic convertible that was built in 1969 that specifically identifies the W30 option. The seller explained that the W30 option for 1970 442 W30 automatic convertibles did not appear on the broadcast cards prior to January 1970. No reason given.
I am not minimizing the significance of documenting a W30!! As a buyer, I acknowledge the effect it has on the value and challenges to the cars authenticity.
I am hoping someone can provide a reason why the W30 option is not identified. Maybe someone can provide evidence of a broadcast card that identifies the W30 option to disprove the non existent W30 identification on broadcast cards for 1970 W30 convertibles with automatics built in 1969?
Please, I want to be clear. I will be spending six figures. This is important for various reasons, not only financial.
Unfortunately, no one specifically knows either way to disprove the non existent W30 identification on the broadcast card.
Further, I am writing this respectively to our members, seeking information

Thank You

Cincinnati Rick

I have nothing to add but will be following along. This is a very interesting thread.

twilightblue28A

Thank you Rick!! I am sincere in my request for a response either way. In a previous response, I was asked to switch positions, asking what I would do.
​​​​I am the prospective buyer!! And that's why I am asking for evidence, either way.
I am deeply concerned over the validity or non validity of the sellers claim.
Further, the seller was up front, and informed me that the broadcast card does not identify the W30 option, and none did for 1970 automatic convertibles manufactured in 1969. No explanation could be provided, which is why I'm looking to tap into our members knowledge.
I don't perceive the seller to be deceiving. And, I am concerned over the validity or non validity of the information on the broadcast card.
And that's the conflict I'm looking to resolve.

Thank you

capstoneclub

trans TAG incorporated into your VIN numerals or are these numerals absent from your VIN?

twilightblue28A

I'm not clear on what you're asking. The numbers stamped on my transmission tie into the VIN. I have been told that the numbers on my OW plate are a sequencing code, and they do not, nor should the numbers tie into the VIN or trim tag numbers
I hope I helped you help me. Thanks

capstoneclub

are the numerals that will absolutely match part of your VIN (if the transmission is original to your car). The numerals stamped on your OW trans tag (located on the passenger side of your transmission)would not match your vin, as far as I know. After Steven and Glade posted their OW trans tag photos, I wondered if they were saying that those numerals were partially a subset of numerals that are present in their vin. If they are, I have learned something new. If not, then the stamped numbers on any trans tag are not a component of the vin (which is what I stated earlier). I was simply double checking with them to confirm what I considered to be fact.

twilightblue28A

My understanding is that the numbers on the OW plate have no correlation to either the trim tag or VIN numbers.

Koda

Sounds like you're not liking what you've been told.

twilightblue28A

koda,

I disagree with your assertion. Responses have been all over the place and inconsistent. I have been open hoping for clarification.
I'm not willing to spend six figures and learn after my purchase that my purchase is not worth what I paid.
I also don't want to lose an opportunity to purchase a beautiful car that is the real thing.
That's my reasoning, and unfortunately, it seems no one knows for certain.

Can you answer my question? Yes or no? I will appreciate you clarifying this issue.

Thank you and please be constructive.

70Post

The numbers on my '70 W30 Post Coupe Auto Trans trans tag (shown in my pic above....1511) do not correspond/match up/etc to any part of my VIN number nor do they match the body number. My bet is those numbers were just a number generated at the Hydro-Matic division for their records or internal sequencing, etc within THAT division (as "capstoneclub" suggested above).

OK....back to matters concerning the broadcast card "W30" printing or lack thereof.......

Also....don't mean to be rude or anything BUT at some point WE'RE GOING TO NEED SOME PICS!! If for nothing else but to satisfy our collective appetites for whatever car we are discussing here. It's basically a "common courtesy".......you've got to throw some meat to all of us wolves that you've baited into discussing matters (AND posting pics you requested) on this thread

I don't care if the pics are on your phone or whatever.....send them to someone on this thread that can post them on this site - people do that all the time (but don't ask to send them to me with my antiquated flip phone....can't help in that regard). Anything you don't want folks to see like license plates, VIN numbers, etc can be obscured prior to posting.

Thanks

Koda

7.5 to 1.5, you need it on the card, seems to be consensus.


We get a lot of people on here that desperately want something to be true, and, when they are told it is not, they argue it. Since you seem to be content to tell me how to post, I'll give you the same: don't be that guy.

stevengerard

To be clear. The sequence numbers on the OW tag will not have any direct correlation to the VIN tag on the car or stamped on the transmission itself. Nor do they have a direct correlation to the body sequence number on the body cowl tag. But if a W30 was built in October of 1969 it most likely should not have an OW tag numbered 5000 as that transmission would have been built later in the production year most likely after January 1970 thus having the higher tag number.

Without an original receipt, an order form or a broadcast card with W30 on it one can only assume by experience and hope that the W30 they are looking at is a W30. Which translates into - I believe it is and I hope it is but does not mean it is.

jensenracing77

That is what I was getting at in post 25. If it does not have W-30 on the broadcast card you will need other Oldsmobile documents to prove it is a W-30. The OW tag no longer is proof enough on its own for a premium value. Without a real Oldsmobile document you will only be able to collect date codes and numbers to help on the "more likely or less likely" proof. It will never be a 100% thing without it and the price will reflect that. The seller is going to have to accept that and price it accordingly if he wants it to sell. It does not matter if others have documented a real car missing W-30 on the broadcast card or not. It only matters what can be proven on that car.

All that being said, If it is a real car with no documents or a 442 with all the correct W-30 parts with correct date codes added and not reproduction W-30 parts. It is still worth more than a standard 442 because of the rare original W-30 parts.

Tirekicker

Members have posted pictures of there "OW" transmission tag, and broadcast card, but you have not posted any info "pictures" for members to review.

jensenracing77

One last note... Just remember, if you buy it and then later try to sell it, the next potential buyer will be asking these very same questions you are. You are for sure asking the correct questions but the answers will always refer back to what I said before if another document don't surface.

joesw31

I agree with Eric. There needs to be paper trail for its pedigree. If not, its a 442 with rare W-30 parts.

68442

In reference to the Trans tag numbers. Is this case use Pattons 1511. These numbers have Huge significant meaning to a/the car in question. few people know how to decode it and of those who think they know, really only think they know. This is something i will not disclose on a public forum. But, OP do your research on this it may help you.

Twilightblue , you have your answer - no proof or doc's nor have others surfaced. There it is. I know you want a different answer but this IS the answer. This car will always be a question. As much as i like Olds's i would find another car to spend 6 figures on

twilightblue28A

I agree with one exception. Assuming the transmission is an OW transmission, with the VIN number stamped on the transmission, barring counterfeit stamps, how can the car not be a W30
Again this is a six figure car.

Thanks again

Stefano

As easy as removing an OW trans tag and rivet from another real OW trans and affixing it to a Standard "OG" trans which has a matching VIN, to the car your considering buying.

Trans tags do not differentiate the body style: Post Coupe, Hardtop, Convertible.

Just this past year there have been several real OW trans for sale on the interweb.

twilightblue28A

Good point. So numbers matching, F heads, correct date coded intake, distributor, carburetor, original inner wheel wells, etc mean nothing. Scary!! Even an expert Oldsmobile 442 authenticator means nothing??

Stefano

The above is for you to decide, its your $$$$$. Do you believe its real? What will the next person think? Does the car make you happy? It can cost $100k just to restore a car, if you don't do any of the work yourself.

There have been purported W-30 Convertibles, with no expert certification or opinion, restamped drivetrain components and no "real" factory documentation that have sold in the $100,000.00 plus/minus range over the years.

Real nice well done and documented 442 Convertibles can fetch big money even without the W-30 option, but collectors which drive the prices of these cars do seem to pay a premium for cars with the least issues. When only 168 were ever produced, it is difficult to find one that has all the boxes checked off and is text book perfect.

twilightblue28A

Stefano,

The car is in impeccable condition and needs no restoration. Do you feel a reputable Oldsmobile authenticator with affidavit's that the car is a W30 strengthens the position that the car:
1.Is a W30?
2. Will support it's value?

Thank you

​​​​​​I agree that much is up to my personal judgement.

jensenracing77

Again, Even a so called "expert" or "authenticator" can not get around the fact there is no document to prove it. Sure, it could help get closer to that 100% but it is impossible to get there. If the car was restored it will be even harder to prove it is real. I don't like where the fraud has taken this hobby and how it has affected some of the real cars but this is where we are. Someone that authenticates a car is very helpful to someone that does not know what they are looking at but he can only go by what is there. If the car is that nice and has real parts, all you can do is either not buy it or pay what you are comfortable with.

capstoneclub

I have been around 70-72 Olds 442's for 38 yrs, but know far less than many on this forum. I own a near perfect 70-442 4 speed convertible and I would be embarrassed to admit the amount I have invested from purchase to current day. The best advice some have shared is the resell issue. If you love the car, screw it, buy it. Just assume the next guy will demand strong doc's to validate it is a W30. Even the avg Joe is gonna take you there come a day. I love W30's, but I would rather own a 442 that does not demand doc's vs assuming I might own a 442 with fake badges. But hey, that's me. FWIW, had I bought a real documented W30 vert with a 4 speed 15 yrs, I would likely have less money invested and own a car worth double the price, but its only money, not fingers and toes as they say.

70Post

Any "authenticator's" take on it, whether through an affidavit, a report, or whatever IS NOT FACT....it's JUST THEIR OPINION. Two completely different animals.

The ORIGINAL FACTORY/DEALER PAPERWORK does not support, IN FACT, the car being a REAL W30. The affidavit sure doesn't change the fact(s).

IN FACT, the "document(s)"/paperwork support the car being a regular 442. Some "authenticators" affidavit DOES NOT change that fact.

I'm not saying anything that all the other guys have already said....just wording it another way. You seem to be replaying the old saying "Don't let the facts get in the way of opinions".

RetroRanger

Q: what do you call a w30 w no docs

A: a 442

Nothing wrong w that it is what it is, don't try and meet the sellers assertions it's a 442!

shiftbyear

I think this mess could be cleared up with some pictures of the broadcast sheet and vehicle in question. Why are you holding back? I would like to see what a 6 figure car looks like, since I'll never own one. Show us your winning hand. This thread is over 4 day old. I'm sure most members are getting a little tired of the banter.

Koda

Probably has a 442 he's cloning into a W-30 and he wanted to test the waters about passing off its broadcast card during the sale.

70Post

I'm beginning to wonder that myself. So many of these "Look what I just found", "Help me verify this car I just bought", etc threads end up just being thinly veiled "For Sale" or "Pre-For-Sale" efforts by the owner (ie - flipper). Owner/flipper eventually states something has come up, situation has changed, etc and all of the sudden you realize it was all about reselling a car.

It's a free world and that is fine but doesn't mean one has to support or like the "technique". To each his own.

twilightblue28A

Koda,

You have a negative attitude which has the effect of counterproductive results. You probably don't see that in your personality.
I spoke to the owner of the car in question. The owner has asked me to respect the owners privacy and not post pictures of the car on the Internet. I am honoring my commitment.
I'm sure this will fuel your " suspicious mind"

​​​​​​Further, if you have nothing constructive to add, perhaps stay off this specific post.

Thank you

Lsx442

I think your question has been answered several times now - no documentation makes it impossible to proove that it's a REAL W30. Anything other than proof just makes for speculation.

My question to you - are you willing to spend 3 figures for a 442 with W30 parts or reproductions?

My 69 came with a lot of documentation including the finance paperwork for the original sale. The previous owner spent well over $100k restoring the car. Did I pay that for the car... nope - the market doesn't support that price for a 442. Did I spend more than what other 442s were selling for? Yep just a little bit the quality of the car and the documentation made it worth more to me. In the end I liked the car so I bought it.

To buy a car for any other reason seems silly to me

Ctls442

You might want to think twice about your negative comments to 70 Post. Patton is knowledgeable, knows these cars well, works on these cars, and takes the time and effort to help people such as yourself. Your original posting states "I can use your help". That is what everyone including Patton has tried to do for you. Now that something is said that you don't like, and others are asking questions, you are stating that the person who has tried to help you "perhaps stay off this specific post". That ain't right.

twilightblue28A

Please read my original post. It seems like some have lost focus. I have asked a specific question, which to date, no one has specifically answered either way. Before I spend SIX FIGURES I am looking for an appropriate response, either way. It's just that simple. Let's not overcomplicate my initial question. Hopefully, one of our members will know.
thank you