twilightblue28A

I can use your help. I have found a 1970 W-30 442 convertible, automatic transmission, all numbers matching. Transmission is an OW transmission. The broadcast card identifies all the cars options, except the W-30 package. The car was manufactured prior to 1970. The explanation given relating to the lack of the W-30 option not identified on the broadcast card is 1970 442's manufactured prior to January 1970 did not identify the W-30 option. Also, this car is a priced well over 100k.
Please assume the numbers are valid and have not been re-stamped.
Can anyone on our site, including Joe, confirm either way?? Again, the car is numbers matching, with an automatic OW transmission, manufactured prior to 1970.
As always, I will appreciate our members help.









Thanks,






Harry

Ctls442

Maybe I have just been lucky but every 1970 W-30 I have owned, including those built in 1969 have had W-30 on the broadcast card(s).

shiftbyear

Harry, can you post a picture of the broadcast card? Maybe some pictures of the car if possible? Board members here have a very keen eye for spotting discrepancies. Best of luck with your purchase.

twilightblue28A

Were any W-30's convertibles built before 1970?
Thanks again

Koda

As the saying goes, it's hard to prove a w-30, but it's easy to disprove. The broadcast card is a big thing; as I understand it, it should have that called out.

Some ways to catch cloners are legit 442s cloned into w-30s with cowl tags saying some plant other than Lansing. Faked stampings are another way. Glued on w-30 badges on fenders with no, or wrong, pierced badge mounting holes is another. Options that did not come on w-30s, like power brakes or AC, are another.

Manual 442s did not have a special transmission. Automatics did, as you have indicated, but the tag can be cloned OR the vin might not match.

Over 6 figures requires hard documents saying w-30.

Edit: in 70, yes, there were w-30 convertibles. In all years other than 66 and 67, there were convertible w-30s. (In 66 there were 54 drag cars, and in 67, the duct needs the space where the battery goes, so the battery went to the trunk, where the convertible top stacked up. )

twilightblue28A

Thank you!! I will post the trim plate, broadcast card, and pictures of the car.


How do I get the photographs from my phone to our site?


I appreciate your help. Thanks again

twilightblue28A

twilightblue28A

Koda,


Thank you. I appreciate your help. Air conditioning and power brakes were available options on automatic only. The OW transmission matches the VIN number. My question regarding any W-30 442's manufactured prior to 1970 was in response to Ctls442. I should have been clearer in my response. I wanted to clarify if the 1970 W-30 442's Ctls442 owned were 1970 convertibles with broadcast cards identifying the W-30 option and manufactured in the calendar year 1969. sorry for the confusion. Thanks for your help!!!!

twilightblue28A

I am awaiting Joe Padavano's response.
Thanks in advance, Harry

Ctls442

The W-30's I was referring to were all hardtops.

rand5204

My 70 W30 was produced in Oct 69 and absolutely had it noted on the broadcast card.

joe_padavano

There ya go. I have heard lots of stories from sellers trying to justify a one-of-none car, but the "broadcast card not stamped until after Jan 70" is a new one on me. Not sure what the reason for this would be. The cars were built the same before and after Jan.

In any case, if the OW trans matches the VIN, look closely for signs of restamping, or swapping the OW tag. If the broadcast card matches the VIN, I assume the VIN tag was not swapped then.

Also look at the rest of the evidence. Are the red inner fenders old originals that look like they've been installed since the car was born? Do all the fasteners (like the bolts that hold the inner fenders to the outer fender lip) appear to be undisturbed? Does the rear axle stamp match a W-30 with AT? My biggest concern, of course, is that you can buy these:

jensenracing77

I have also seen people trying to claim the W-30 not on the broadcast card before 70 but this is BS. I have had and seen several of them before 70 and all had them. Even had a guy with a convertible claiming it was a W-30 because it was in a magazine in the 80's and the magazine said it was a W-30. He had the broadcast card with no W-30 on it. Tried to claim the magazine was his proof... Not buying it!

jensenracing77

Let me guess, this car is yellow... Either way, If it is a nice car and the price is right you may be fine but it CAN NOT be bought as a W-30 at the W-30 price. For the most part he has documentation that the car IS NOT a W-30.

Ctls442

I know of a rally red, white interior '70 W-30 convertible that will be hitting the market with questionable W-30 pedigree; curious if that is the car that triggered this post.

Stefano

There are documented no question examples of W-30 4 speed convertibles built earlier in the production run, which do NOT have W-30 designated in the appropriate broad cast card box. So a broadcast card may not authenticate a 4 speed W-30 rag top.

Why this happened on Convertible 4 speed W-30s, I do not know. With only 96 produced and approx 30 deemed to be the real thing, I have inspected most of those cars, personally over the past decades.

I do not know this to hold true for automatic W-30 Convertibles and or Coupes as I have not seen a documented example of such and while at a lesser percentage I have looked at and inspected many of these cars as well, including docs.

The Sebring Yellow "Vintage Magazine" 4 speed convertible may or may not be authentic. W-30 is Not shown on its broadcast card. Since it was restored recently from an original sheet metal, and purported original drivetrain car, had the owner / restorer documented each and every piece of the car as well as engine and trans stampings, the consensus might be more conclusive.

Regarding the original posters question: I have NOT seen this anomaly with automatic W-30s Convertibles and or 4 speed and automatic coupes. This does not mean it didn't happen.

I would start with closely examining the evidence you do have right in front of you. The OW tag itself as well as the trans VIN derivative as well as engine dirivative stamp to include the casting dates of these items.

stevengerard

I have heard that as well but not specific to the date of January. I have seen a couple of automatic conv W-30s with no W30 stamp on broadcast card that looked real to me. But almost all had the stamp. Have not found broudcast card to my hardtop but I have the order form, it was built in April '70

Basing the car on options is difficult as well, my experience has been most W30 automatics I have seen and all I have owned have had AC, power disk brakes and power steering. Seems as if most W30s have either a few options or many. But I'd say that goes for many 442s in general. My convertible is loaded, the hardtop few. again that's just my experience in what I have seen.

Carshinebob

Twice I have been around W-30's that didn't have W-30 called out on the broadcast card. Both cars were original paint cars. One was a convertible that I parted in the 80's (no motor and very rusty) and the other was a car I painted for a customer around the same time. I have no doubt that both cars were original W-30 cars. I don't remember (or didn't check back then) what the build dates were. I always thought that Fisher Body didn't need to know that a body had the W-30 option to build it. It's kind of sad that this kind of issue would make documenting these cars even harder. ~BOB

twilightblue28A

Thank you. Responses go both ways. To further clarify, I have been referring 1970 442 W-30 convertibles, with automatic transmissions....built prior to January 1970 not having W30 on the broadcast card.
Not 4 speed cars, hardtop or convertible.
I hope this clarrifies the issue.

As usual, thanks in advance!!

Stefano

To be clear: Based on this thread.......no one has ever seen a "documented" bullet proof W-30 convertible automatic, built in October, November or December that had a broadcast card which was Void of the W-30 Designation.

This does not prove that it didn't happen, only that it has NOT been documented and that proof to the contrary does exist.

twilightblue28A

1

twilightblue28A

Thank you!! If proof to the contrary exists, but there is no proof that it didn't happen, then it is possible that the broadcast card not identifying the W30 option is in fact a W30.
Assume for the purpose of this discussion that the transmission is an OW, all numbers match and tie in to the VIN, and no numbers have been restarted, how else can it be explained that the car is not a W30?
I understand and acknowledge you are writing that 1970 442 convertibles with automatic transmissions, manufactured in late 1969 must have the W30 option identified on the broadcast to be documented. What can explain the W30 option not being identified on the broadcast card, based on the conditions identified in my post.
I'm not being combatative, nor argumentative; frankly confused. Thanks again
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stevengerard

Well as Carshinebob said their is no reason why Fisher Body needed to know weather it was a W30 or not - I was always under that impression as well. Again, just because we haven't brought up a documented W30 auto convertible made before January '70 with out the stamp doesn't mean one doesn't exist (or didn't exist).

I was just looking for my documentation on my W30s, its late but I can't find any of mine and I had it for 3 of the 4 cars so right now I'm a little bit flipped out. I'm sure (I hope) I will find it somewhere in the house.

twilightblue28A

This may help resolve this issue. Does anyone on our site have a 1970 442 W30 convertible automatic, manufactured prior to January 1970 with a broadcast card identifying the W30 option??

1

jensenracing77

You are getting into a sketchy area here. Even if they did have broadcast cards with the W-30 missing you are going to need another source of factory document to prove it is a W-30 or the value will reflect it as less than full W-30 price. Any high end collector would not likely trust it at full price. I assume you are trying to justify value? Outside of value documentation don't much matter.

Tirekicker

How about posting pictures of the trans tag, vin on the trans, and engine. And further a picture of the broadcast card. Also pictures before the car was restored.

stevengerard

Yeah, good point, gone are the days 20+ years ago when the OW tag was worth seeing. I still feel if you know what you are looking at the tag is pretty strong evidence. Hard to fake the VIN on the trans tag and then you can also check the frame VIN too. There is also usually a correlation to the OW tag numbering as well

Stefano

The trans tag does not have the cars VIN derivative. That is stamped into the transmission itself. The tag does have a trans sequence number and some people keep track of them to see if the trans is in sequence with other OWs, but an original OW tag can be easily removed from a trans and installed on another trans. People have been accurately re-stamping engine and transmissions for many years.

Also, frame VINs can be very difficult to see, sometimes they are stamped more than one place and sometimes not at all. (Regarding 1970 Lansing Built 442s)

stevengerard

I miss typed, I meant VIN on trans not trans tag. I guess you could restamp the VIN derivative on the trans case but I think it would be difficult to make it look correct as compared to restamping an engine block. I have my own list of VINs and OW trans sequences.

I go out of my way to make sure the frame number matches the VIN. Just one more assurance the car is that much more complete. Doesn't guarantee everything about the car is original but its a "nice to Know" addition to the cars history.

twilightblue28A

The transmission stamp ties into the VIN Number. The OW tag on the side of the transmission has a number which doesn't tie into the VIN or build numbers. I am still trying to determine if any members have a 1970 W30 automatic,convertible, built in 1969 that identifies the W30 option on the build sheet?? So far, no-one has responded that any exist based on the description, specifically for a convertible, with automatic, 1970 model year, built in the last quarter of 1969. If anyone can provide one, this will solidify the doubts, which are appreciated, expressed by others. Thanks again!!!

7

capstoneclub

at least, I do not recall ANY TRANS TAGS numbers matching any VIN's.

twilightblue28A

Thank you!! Your information rules out numbers on the OW plate, not tying into the VIN and/or the build numbers.


I am awaiting any members' build sheet for a 1970 W-30, convertible, with automatic transmission, built in the last quarter of 1969 identifying the W30 option. Thanks again for your help!!

70Post

Be patient......

>264 '70 W30 converts built

>We'll be generous and assume HALF were built in the last quarter of 1969.....that gets us down to 132 cars

>Now.....do the "math"/guesstimating on how many autos and how many manual trans during last Q of 1969. Seems like the "96 1970 W30 converts were manual trans cars" number gets used a lot so apply that "factor" (ie - 64% auto trans) to the 132-built-last-Q-1969 and we're down to 84 cars.

>Hmmm.....how many survived the test of time since late 69/early 70 when they were sold?.....again, let's be generous and say one third.....that gets us down to 28 cars (NOTE: If only 10% survived then this number gets hammered down to {8} cars)

>How many of the 28 {8} cars HAVE BUILD SHEETS (ie- broadcast cards) with them...or ever had them??

>How many of the owners of the 28{8} even know of this site and/or are aware of this thread?

Don't give up........just have some patience and keep digging.

twilightblue28A

twilightblue28A

Thanks 70 POST


I think one of your points is the probability of anyone providing a broadcast card identifying the W30 option based on these conditions is extremely unlikely.
Your second point is to be patient.


Do any of our members have a photograph of a 1970 OW transmission plate?? That might help.


As always,


Thank you

twilightblue28A

And you made a great statistical argument


Thanks again

70Post

Thanks Twilight.......I did have to take statistics in school but it was pure hell as the prof had an heavy Asian accent and spoke not-very-loudly....one thing it forced you to do...pay attention!

But, I also read an old book recently and it was titled "How To Lie With Statistics".

I'm no math expert....your thread just got me thinking "OK- how can we narrow this down to the what-if/odds?" on this site.

BY ALL MEANS, fair and unfair , KEEP ASKING and looking.....SOMEONE out there may see this thread or get referred to it considering the massive amount of awareness and "interconnectedness" that exists these days.

I'm racking my brain here and will be contacting one buddy here with a '70 W30 convert auto to ask him about build dates, build sheet/broadcast cards, etc.....I never paid attention to the build date on his car when I was doing work on it, etc. Shot in the dark but who knows?.....keep turning over stones.

FWIW - my '70 W30's broadcast card has the "W30" designation on it (11/21 build date) but it's a post coupe/hardtop car although it is an auto trans car. I'll try to get under it tomorrow, wipe down the "OW" trans tag and snap a shot or two.

davebw31

There were 70' W30 s whether they were post, hrdtp. or convert were built in late August and the first of September. Not many, as when I saw them being built I was surprised. I was down in Assembly on the A body and chassis line a lot then. I know I saw several hardtops, one post, and two converts. They may have built more as I was not there 24/7! I found out later from a guy in Sales that they were really going to advertise and push the W30/31 option pkg. to performance dealers, especially in Texas and New York/New Jersey were all the $$$ was.

The reason why the Fisher Broadcast Sheet said W30 was for the "sheet metal punch shop" This told them that the body/fenders were getting paint stripes down the sides and not to punch holes for side mlgs and frt fender emblems. The same was true for the W31s. I would be surprised that the W30/31 did NOT have them listed on the Broadcast Sheet. How would Fisher know?

stevengerard

Here is one from my collection of OW tags and VINs, though I won't post the VIN from the car it came from.

70Post

Pic of the OW trans tag on my '70 W30 Post Coupe. The "thing" in the middle of the tag is a rivet. What you see is the rivet head sticking up.....but it also looks like a depression shape depending on how you look at the picture.