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This post is regarding a 1985 Oldsmobile Toronado.
alternator install went fine, took about 18 minutes. Until the massive spark from the negative battery terminal when I went to reinstall everything. Disconnected as quick as I could and it turned out the two wires on the back of the alternator weren’t tightened down all the way and had arced. Now the car has no power to it whatsoever. even hooking up the battery posts to another car. I’m assuming I blew a fuse of some kind? Hoping? I understand the fuse box is under the dash. I’ll attach a photo. My owners manual doesn’t seem to mirror the fuse box that’s in the physical car. I would be extremely grateful for any guidance, as I am in somewhat of a panic at the moment.
What is measured voltage of the battery?
What is measured voltage of red wire from battery to horn relay distribution block?
a smart man would have a voltmeter. I, not being that, have just ordered one which will arrive tomorrow. Also wondering where the horn relay distribution block is. The battery was relatively new, maybe 10 months old. But even hooking the cables to a definitely good battery from another car, the car is completely dead. No dome light, no door chime, nothing.
Last edited by mrtoronadoman; July 13th, 2023 at 07:02 PM.
a smart man would have a voltmeter. I, not being that, have just ordered one which will arrive tomorrow. Also wondering where the horn relay distribution block is. The battery was relatively new, maybe 10 months old. But even hooking the cables to a definitely good battery from another car, the car is completely dead. No dome light, no door chime, nothing.
Don't panic. To troubleshoot this unfortunate scenario you'll need to test for voltage first to ensure the battery is not toast - the battery must be able to produce voltage for ANYTHING to operate in the car. Therefore, first order of business is to test battery voltage. It is possible to fry a battery under this scenario - not often likely, but it is possible - none-the-less, you must have a voltage supply and that is your battery. Next, you must have voltage FROM the battery to the various posts which the battery attaches. You could use a test light (option) or a meter (preferred).
You most likely want the "quick fix" - blew "some" sorta fuse, pop in a new one done deal, Bob's your uncle away we go. There "is" a method to troubleshooting this scenario. NOTE: You "MUST" first have battery voltage and the 1st objective should be to demonstrate you have battery voltage - you move downstream from the battery in diagnostics. Hang in there - you'll get it.
Now that you have this car, you need these to go with it so you or anyone you hire can service it.
For 1985 there's also an all series electrical troubleshooting supplement, a transmission and transaxle manual, a new product service information manual and the Fisher Body manual. Yes, cars were getting complicated by then.
The electrical manuals are almost a must have since all the wiring diagrams are in them.
But yes, you should see two (maybe three) fusible links at the starter. They're not hard to replace if they've burned out. My concern is that you didn't fry the car's ECM when this happened.
You most likely want the "quick fix" - blew "some" sorta fuse, pop in a new one done deal, Bob's your uncle away we go. There "is" a method to troubleshooting this scenario. NOTE: You "MUST" first have battery voltage and the 1st objective should be to demonstrate you have battery voltage - you move downstream from the battery in diagnostics. Hang in there - you'll get it.
thanks I appreciate the reassurance. I’ve done a lot of wrenching, swapped engines before in more modern cars etc. but have never had to do much electrical troubleshooting. I’m guessing the other contributors are referring to something like an in-line fuse somewhere along the starter wire?
thanks I appreciate the reassurance. I’ve done a lot of wrenching, swapped engines before in more modern cars etc. but have never had to do much electrical troubleshooting. I’m guessing the other contributors are referring to something like an in-line fuse somewhere along the starter wire?
Yes, they are referring to an in-line "type" of fuse. It is NOT your typical fuse box fuse. It's referred to as a "fusible link". It is designed to halt a (mostly) complete runaway over current (amperage) situation to the vehicle components. It may or it may not be the issue, but it is certainly w/o question "suspect". As pointed out, a possible worse case scenario is the ECM (Electronic Control Module) is toast. Yeah, they're a little expensive, but hey - if it is the ECM it can be replaced. That's life, right?
Yes, they are referring to an in-line "type" of fuse. It is NOT your typical fuse box fuse. It's referred to as a "fusible link". It is designed to halt a (mostly) complete runaway over current (amperage) situation to the vehicle components. It may or it may not be the issue, but it is certainly w/o question "suspect". As pointed out, a possible worse case scenario is the ECM (Electronic Control Module) is toast. Yeah, they're a little expensive, but hey - if it is the ECM it can be replaced. That's life, right?
Someone w/ more knowledge of a 1985 Oldsmobile Toronado would need to address that question; but, I believe those are the two fusible links. The "black" pieces are actually a splice - the "fusible link" will be the shorter wire where the splice is connected.
They'll look something like this. These are 80s GM F-body. E-body should be similar. Notice the burnt one to right side of the picture and the cylindrical connectors on the wires.
Here's the repair part. Most auto parts stores should have them.
Again, for what it's worth, don't put the cart before the horse here. There's a method you should follow. No one is going to suggest you go out straight-away and buy an ECM module when it hasn't been identified as the issue as yet. If you have voltage on BOTH sides of the fusible link then the fusible link is not the issue. But again, you MUST have battery voltage first - see where this is going?
BTW, since it's not completely clear exactly how this ground short occurred and what damage may have occurred to ANY component - which includes the battery - best practice at the moment would suggest you disconnect the (-) negative battery cable until you are able to perform further diagnostics. It is NOT always the case the battery is now toast from this event (as I mentioned earlier); none-the-less, remove the (-) negative battery terminal cable. There "is" the possibility the battery completely discharged - in such a scenario, the battery is most likely salvageable & will simply require a full charging (best case scenario).
Again, for what it's worth, don't put the cart before the horse here. There's a method you should follow. No one is going to suggest you go out straight-away and buy an ECM module when it hasn't been identified as the issue as yet. If you have voltage on BOTH sides of the fusible link then the fusible link is not the issue. But again, you MUST have battery voltage first - see where this is going?
yes. Start at the power source and follow upstream, rather than try random solutions. 👍🏻
BTW, since it's not completely clear exactly how this ground short occurred and what damage may have occurred to ANY component - which includes the battery - best practice at the moment would suggest you disconnect the (-) negative battery cable until you are able to perform further diagnostics. It is NOT always the case the battery is now toast from this event (as I mentioned earlier); none-the-less, remove the (-) negative battery terminal cable. There "is" the possibility the battery completely discharged - in such a scenario, the battery is most likely salvageable & will simply require a full charging (best case scenario).
upon further inspection, of the two small cables that attach to the post on the back of the alternator, it looks like one of them (the one that goes to the positive battery terminal), instead of having a circular connector at the end, had a “C” shaped one. At some point when re attaching the nut, the cable fell off of the post. When I then reconnected the battery, the loose cable arced on the alternator and a big spark was seen at the battery as well. I have the battery out of the car and am going to test it tomorrow at work, (I work in a parts store). Voltmeter should be waiting for me at home once I’m off.
Last edited by mrtoronadoman; July 13th, 2023 at 09:12 PM.
upon further inspection, of the two small cables that attach to the post on the back of the alternator, it looks like one of them (the black one), instead of having a circular connector at the end, had a “C” shaped one. At some point when re attaching the nut, the cable fell out. When I then reconnected the battery, the loose cable arced on the alternator and a big spark was seen at the battery as well. I have the battery out of the car and am going to test it tomorrow at work, (I work in a parts store). Voltmeter should be waiting for me at home once I’m off.
You're not out of the woods, yet; but, hopefully you'll come through modestly unscathed. Two considerations: (1) Always disconnect the (-) negative battery terminal cable anytime you're working on electrical; and, (2) you'd be well served to change out the "C" terminal end w/ a proper enclosed circular end terminal wire connector.
Apologies. Rereading your statement I missed the point where you actually had the battery disconnected. $hit happens, eh?
boy does it ever. I feel awful about it. The car belonged to my 92 year old neighbor prior to me, and I try to treat it like the family labrador. Took my battery into work this morning and it tested good. Hopefully the voltmeter is waiting for me at home this evening. And then I can start testing once the little one goes down for bed. Just continuing to tell myself this will be one of those learning experiences.
boy does it ever. I feel awful about it. The car belonged to my 92 year old neighbor prior to me, and I try to treat it like the family labrador. Took my battery into work this morning and it tested good. Hopefully the voltmeter is waiting for me at home this evening. And then I can start testing once the little one goes down for bed. Just continuing to tell myself this will be one of those learning experiences.
I saw images of your car on your other thread - love the car.
I saw images of your car on your other thread - love the car.
thanks, so do I. So much so I was planning on selling my other car and daily driving this one once I went through it mechanically. Good thing I didn’t jump the gun or else I would’ve been Ubering to work this morning. The thing that has me puzzled is if the battery is good, then why isn’t the car getting any electricity whatsoever not even to the dome light? I am wondering if that narrows down the problem at all I suppose. And for instance, if it ends up being one of those starter wires, could that cause the whole car to go dead? Is it wired in a series like that?
thanks, so do I. So much so I was planning on selling my other car and daily driving this one once I went through it mechanically. Good thing I didn’t jump the gun or else I would’ve been Ubering to work this morning. The thing that has me puzzled is if the battery is good, then why isn’t the car getting any electricity whatsoever not even to the dome light? I am wondering if that narrows down the problem at all I suppose. And for instance, if it ends up being one of those starter wires, could that cause the whole car to go dead? Is it wired in a series like that?
Up front - I'm not an expert on any Toronado & I don't own the Toronado Electrical Manuals for your year of production. You're going to have "somewhere" a horn relay/junction (distribution) block - often located on/near the fender. This junction/distribution block does as suggested, it is a junction/distribution point for the electrical components of your vehicle. I'll need to let others w/ specific experience of your model year Toronado provide additional troubleshooting steps for you. Plenty of good members here w/ a Toronado. The first place to look though, would be the junction/distribution block to see if you have 12V being supplied. It's good you know you have a known good battery - that's a positive starting point. There is/should be generally a red wire from the battery positive post to the junction/distribution block.
I don't want to confuse any issues, but if you have anything which might resemble earlier model years here is a picture of my 1971 CS junction/distribution block. The horn relay mounts to the junction/distribution block (if yours resembles anything like prior years). Good Luck!
This generation Toronado most likely won't have a distribution/junction block (apparently) at least resembling prior years such as the images I provided, from what I've been able to research on-line.
I'm not 100% where the power lead(s) to the components/accessories might be located or the routing. I'll note (as others have) the primary electrical circuit is protected by two fusible links located near the starter solenoid terminal - the images you have already provided. Obviously, the power contained w/in each of the two fusible links must originate at the battery. Without an electrical diagram, it's going to require some assistance from other members w/ knowledge of the power distribution routing. With that said, hopefully it's obvious power (voltage) must exist PRIOR to each of the fusible links and AFTER each of the fusible links. Therefore, you should expect to have to measure (meter) the voltage on both sides of each fusible link - prior to and after each fusible link. You'll need the battery connected to measure voltage along any of the wires in the electrical circuit. I suspect both wires supporting each of the two fusible links should measure 12V (or whatever voltage is contained in the battery). Certainly examine each of the two short fusible link wires for burning as a tell-tale sign. It's a tough call on whether they should or should not burn on such a very short duration ground short as you experienced. Generally, it's the significant amount of amperage delivered over a rather modest period of time which will destroy a fusible link - they have to heat up significantly to destroy the fusible link wire. The may or they may not "look" burned, they could be broken under the wire insulation (I think you get the point).
I'm suspecting you may perhaps have limited knowledge on the meter usage - especially if you have a multi-meter w/ Ohms (resistance/continuity) and voltage. For this purpose, the quickest/easiest would be to measure voltage on both sides of the fusible link wires. Just like if you were to hookup the voltage meter to measure voltage of the battery (+) and (-) terminals you'd hookup the one red (generally) wire to the battery (+) post, and the black (generally) wire to the battery (-) post which should then read >12V. So, you're looking for a "break" (no voltage) somewhere along at least those two wires which contain the fusible links. To do this you need to touch (hookup, whatever) the red (+) voltage meter wire to the end (terminus=where it attaches) of one fusible link wire. The other voltage meter wire (generally black) you are going to touch to ANY solid piece of frame and/or chassis piece of metal - this then is the GROUND (-) negative portion of the electrical circuit. Combining the two: red (+) wire touching the end of the fusible link wire and the black (-) wire touching GROUND (chassis/frame) completes the circuit and you should read 12V "if" there is voltage, if you don't read ANY voltage you can stop right there because somewhere before that point you've lost all power. Demonstrate this to yourself by simply connecting the red voltage meter wire to the battery positive (+) terminal and then touch any chassis/frame piece of metal with the negative (-) black meter probe. You will read 12V. Hope this helps. Shout if you have questions.
Last edited by Vintage Chief; July 14th, 2023 at 03:46 PM.
This generation Toronado most likely won't have a distribution/junction block (apparently) at least resembling prior years such as the images I provided, from what I've been able to research on-line.
I'm not 100% where the power lead(s) to the components/accessories might be located or the routing. I'll note (as others have) the primary electrical circuit is protected by two fusible links located near the starter solenoid terminal - the images you have already provided. Obviously, the power contained w/in each of the two fusible links must originate at the battery. Without an electrical diagram, it's going to require some assistance from other members w/ knowledge of the power distribution routing. With that said, hopefully it's obvious power (voltage) must exist PRIOR to each of the fusible links and AFTER each of the fusible links. Therefore, you should expect to have to measure (meter) the voltage on both sides of each fusible link - prior to and after each fusible link. You'll need the battery connected to measure voltage along any of the wires in the electrical circuit. I suspect both wires supporting each of the two fusible links should measure 12V (or whatever voltage is contained in the battery). Certainly examine each of the two short fusible link wires for burning as a tell-tale sign. It's a tough call on whether they should or should not burn on such a very short duration ground short as you experienced. Generally, it's the significant amount of amperage delivered over a rather modest period of time which will destroy a fusible link - they have to heat up significantly to destroy the fusible link wire. The may or they may not "look" burned, they could be broken under the wire insulation (I think you get the point).
I'm suspecting you may perhaps have limited knowledge on the meter usage - especially if you have a multi-meter w/ Ohms (resistance/continuity) and voltage. For this purpose, the quickest/easiest would be to measure voltage on both sides of the fusible link wires. Just like if you were to hookup the voltage meter to measure voltage of the battery (+) and (-) terminals you'd hookup the one red (generally) wire to the battery (+) post, and the black (generally) wire to the battery (-) post which should then read >12V. So, you're looking for a "break" (no voltage) somewhere along at least those two wires which contain the fusible links. To do this you need to touch (hookup, whatever) the red (+) voltage meter wire to the end (terminus=where it attaches) of one fusible link wire. The other voltage meter wire (generally black) you are going to touch to ANY solid piece of frame and/or chassis piece of metal - this then is the GROUND (-) negative portion of the electrical circuit. Combining the two: red (+) wire touching the end of the fusible link wire and the black (-) wire touching GROUND (chassis/frame) completes the circuit and you should read 12V "if" there is voltage, if you don't read ANY voltage you can stop right there because somewhere before that point you've lost all power. Demonstrate this to yourself by simply connecting the red voltage meter wire to the battery positive (+) terminal and then touch any chassis/frame piece of metal. You will read 12V. Hope this helps. Shout if you have questions.
Very helpful thank you. and yes, I’ve always avoided electrical/been intimidated by it whether it be home or automotive. Question on the fusible links. Those black connectors are just that, right? There isn’t a glass fuse binding within the black plastic? I think the word fusible is getting me mixed up.
BTW, just crossing my "T's" ensuring you're tracking - I'm trying not to make too many assumptions. Whether you have a digital mulitmeter or just a voltage meter, ensure you're measuring DCV (DC Voltage) as opposed to ACV (AC Voltage). Each most likely has a scale you can adjust/set for reading on the meter - since the battery is going to measure 12V DC, your setting on the meter needs to be above 12V DC but below 50V DC (e.g. w/in the range of reading).
Very helpful thank you. and yes, I’ve always avoided electrical/been intimidated by it whether it be home or automotive. Question on the fusible links. Those black connectors are just that, right? There isn’t a glass fuse binding within the black plastic? I think the word fusible is getting me mixed up.
The "fusible link" is just that it's a "link" - a thinner (smaller diameter) & shorter piece of wire than the entire running piece of wire which is a larger diameter and longer - it truly is a "link". The black connectors are just that - nothing more than connectors splicing the two pieces of wire. It doesn't matter what's inside each connector, the connector "is" a splice between the two pieces of wire. I suspect there "could" exist the off-chance the "inside" of the splice is busted, been destroyed, etc. (most unlikely). You'll soon know if the splice/connector or the fusible link is bad since you won't be able to measure any voltage on the other side. There exist SLOBLOW fuses which take a little time to blow, FASTBLOW fuses which are momentary interruption fuses and blow instantly when amperage is exceeded, then there are fusible links which take considerable time to BLOW - this is because it takes considerable HEAT to break down the integrity of the wire and this amount of heat (on a car) doesn't occur momentarily, it generally requires some time (depending on the amount of amperage to produce significant heat). Ever notice the surge-protector or the "fuse link" contained on an electric pole with a transformer on the side of the road, etc. That's a fuse link (fusible link, same thing). It's literally a bridge between two wires. If there exists run-away amperage along that wire, the fuse link will BLOW; and, you'll often see it blow a bright shiny color (at night).
EDIT: How's this? It's "fusible" because it "acts" like a fuse.
Last edited by Vintage Chief; July 14th, 2023 at 03:38 PM.
The "fusible link" is just that it's a "link" - a thinner (smaller diameter) & shorter piece of wire than the entire running piece of wire which is a larger diameter and longer - it truly is a "link". The black connectors are just that - nothing more than connectors splicing the two pieces of wire. It doesn't matter what's inside each connector, the connector "is" a splice between the two pieces of wire. I suspect there "could" exist the off-chance the "inside" of the splice is busted, been destroyed, etc. (most unlikely). You'll soon know if the splice/connector or the fusible link is bad since you won't be able to measure any voltage on the other side. There exist SLOBLOW fuses which take a little time to blow, FASTBLOW fuses which are momentary interruption fuses and blow instantly when amperage is exceeded, then there are fusible links which take considerable time to BLOW - this is because it takes considerable HEAT to break down the integrity of the wire and this amount of heat (on a car) doesn't occur momentarily, it generally requires some time (depending on the amount of amperage to produce significant heat). Ever notice the surge-protector or the "fuse link" contained on an electric pole with a transformer on the side of the road, etc. That's a fuse link (fusible link, same thing). It's literally a bridge between two wires. If there exists run-away amperage along that wire, the fuse link will BLOW; and, you'll often see it blow a bright shiny color (at night).
EDIT: How's this? It's "fusible" because it "acts" like a fuse.
makes sense! So there’s been a development. Got home, opened the multimeter, checked battery (12.48v), re-installed battery, heard an audible click. Thought “hmm that’s odd”. Grabbed the key, car started on the first try. The alternator light or “charge” light is on. But it could be due to the 2 amp options that were present when I bought it. The man at the store said his computer told him a 78amp alternator was called for but listed 94 as optional. I went with the lower of the two. The arc’ing could have fried the alternator maybe? As far as the car being dead, then starting all of the sudden, makes me wonder though, could one of those fusible links have been partially blown and just by me jiggling them around to get a look at them “fixed” the issue? All I did was remove the battery, take it to be tested, bring it home and put it in the car. Only other thing that was done was jacking the car up on stands and moving wires around to look at them.
I don't know the electrical routing of your car to know well enough to answer your question. What makes more sense is perhaps the notion there exists a "circuit breaker" in the electrical system. The circuit breaker "trips" (opens the circuit to prevent further damage), then; after, some time the circuit breaker resets itself (re-establishes to the closed position).
The audible "click" you heard may very well have been the circuit breaker resetting itself. Much (a fair degree) of this was logical shooting from the hip. You'd sleep better knowing there exists a circuit breaker in the electrical routing and that was (most likely) shutdown the electrical. Maybe buy the electrical manuals or wait on another member w/ more experience on your car to help validate. You walked away unscathed. Good Luck!
Reviewing RockAuto electrical components for your car demonstrates availability of a circuit breaker. I have no idea where it goes in your system - it "appears" to be a self-resetting circuit breaker. Could go in fuse box, or somewhere in the engine bay wire routing. Good Luck!
It is a thermal auto reset type1 single pole, 30 amps, 14VDC, 450A interrupting rating circuit breaker.
Thank you so much for all the help! This may be my favorite automotive forum already. Once I get everything buttoned up hopefully tomorrow evening I’ll report back. As of now, no warning lights other than the charge light which was present before the debacle. Going to swap out the alternator with the higher rated one.
Thank you so much for all the help! This may be my favorite automotive forum already. Once I get everything buttoned up hopefully tomorrow evening I’ll report back. As of now, no warning lights other than the charge light which was present before the debacle. Going to swap out the alternator with the higher rated one.
Regarding your charge light. You indicated you measured 12.48V battery voltage - that's good & w/in specs for a healthy battery. Determine the health of your current alternator before upgrading (if that's what you want to do).
(1) Car off - measure battery voltage as you normally would. What is battery voltage - should still approximate ~12.48V.
(2) Car on/running (turn off all accessories) - no lights, no A/C, no heater, no radio, etc. - measure battery voltage. What is battery voltage - should approximate >13.9V, nominally ~14.3V. If you're above 13.9V & below 14.9V the alternator is working as designed for a standard equipped vehicle. The ALT/GEN (charge light) sensor switch may be bad rather than the alternator. No sense spending the $$ on a working alternator unless you plan for an extra workload.
July 13th, 2023, 06:37 PM
