Swoopy

Warm finally in MD after the 8 inches of snow on march 25-26 here on the Eastern Shore.

Wrapping up the timing and intake change hooking up wires and noted some alternator and Volt reg. wires were capped. Reading manual and the wiring is wrong. Never checked prior as it ran and charged. The warning light was dim at times intermittently. Not sure how it worked.

Alt had; F capped, R to F on Volt reg., Large hot to horn relay, small hot to #3 on Volt Reg. Ground connected to ground mount of Volt reg. (large brown wire)

Volt Reg.; F connected to Alt. R, # 2 connected to brown warning light harness wire, #3 connected to small Alt hot and #4 is capped.

Not sure how it worked, but it kept battery charged and ran good.

I will correct, but not sure what was bypassed. Thoughts?


Question, can I keep the large ground or will this mess with regulator?

m371961

Do you have original type alternator? I don't think I would change anything until you are positive you have alternator used with external regulator.

MDchanic

Yes. Your externally-regulated alternator has been replaced with an internally-regulated alternator.

Look at your alternator where the two smaller wires plug into it:

Do the terminals look like this: ( | | ) or like this: ( — — ) ?

I'm betting they look like this: ( — — ).

If so, it's internally regulated, and you should not change anything (except maybe for properly soldering those crappy crimped joints).

- Eric

Nop

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-reversed.html

oldcutlass

It should look like this.


new_alternator_wiring_pic2.jpg

Swoopy

Thanks all.


Well after a long 16 hour day I thought I would tighten up all wires, set away from heat and connect the capped wires. I did this for the Alt "F" capped wire and did not change anything else.


After reading the manual, I thought it was external and just bypassed.


The wires look like this "| |". Here is a pic of back. This is external I thought as the internal had the connector on top? Argh. I'm lost.


As MDchanic stated just leave as be, but its all sooo hard to leave loose ends.


Solder yup, will do.

MDchanic

Yup, that's an externally-regulated alternator.

I'd trace down the wires, just out of curiosity, to see what someone else did, but I wouldn't mess with it, other than to clean it up.

Put on that MAW helmet.

- Eric

Swoopy

Yup, saw those diagrams and read manual chassis electrical 12-41 as well as other regarding generator. Seems like it would bypass low end of current, or what?


or is it just an internal regulated alt?


Thanks Erics.


Perplexed & confused.


Thoughts?

Swoopy

Thanks for the confirmation, Eric.


Traced the wires and all seems good, but the warning light is intermittent.


Rob, how much for the MAW helmet?


I can't stanza the loose ends.


1971 cutlass, ac and 350. Man I gotta add that to my sig.


Manual page 12-41 fig 12-50 shows connections to regulator as well as internal flow through regulator. Something is bypassed, Right?


How does this work? No relay back to alternator, how can it regulate current?


yikes!

Swoopy

More research. Aparently, the alternator #1 or R as is stamped on my alternator is the only one required. The # 2 or F terminal is a sensory wire going to regulator to "adjust" voltage.

Battery Voltage is than "sensed" in the voltage regulator by input connection to battery instead of from the F or #2 terminal.

Ok I get that and understand my setup has a ground from alternator to mount screw of regulator allowing I'm guessing better sensory of battery voltage.

My reg setup only has 3 wires; 1} Reg F to R or #1 of alt, 2} Reg # 2 to ignition and warning, 3} Reg #3 to small wire connected to alt bat terminal and 4} reg #4 is capped.

All else is factory wiring with the alt #2 or F terminal capped.

Still don't get how current travels through the voltage regulator when looking at 1971 manual page 12-41 fig 12-50 with my setup. Guessing alt. F is input while bat is output and R is both?

I'm going to leave as is and test wiring.

Still perplexed for now.

stellar

It does not make sense to me. Are you sure alt R terminal goes to reg f terminal and alt F terminal is not connected?

Lady72nRob71

This does sound confusing... Got a good picture of the wiring at the regulator?

Only 19.95 for the Super model and 29.95 for the Super Duper one!
Looks like you will need the latter one.

And perhaps this to go with it...
..........

MDchanic

Okay, let's just review the alternator and regulator wiring so that you can figure out what's going on.

When you start the car, the alternator Field coil is pre-excited by current that flows through the ignition switch (ACC terminal), through the ALT light, and into the Regulator through brown wire to the "L" or "4" terminal.
The current goes through the big resistor on the back of the Regulator and out through the Field, "F," or "1" terminal, through the blue wire, to the field coil, where it energizes the field coil so that the Alternator will begin to make power as soon as it starts spinning.

Once the engine is started, and the Alternator is spinning, it begins making power, and one of the three windings is connected directly to the Relay or "R" terminal of the Alternator, and immediately shows an AC voltage. That AC voltage travels from the "R" terminal, through the white wire, to the "R" or "2" terminal of the Regulator, then through the coil of the Field Relay to ground, pulling in the Field Relay contacts, connecting the Regulator to Battery voltage through the "+" or "3" terminal of the Regulator, thus turning off the ALT light (now that both sides of it are at 12V, instead of one side running to ground through the Field coil, it will turn off), and beginning the regulating function of the Regulator.

Now that the Alternator is spinning, and the Regulator is switched on, the regulator will vary the current sent to the Field coil through the "1" terminal depending on the voltage sensed from the Battery at the "3" terminal.





Use this information to figure out what on earth is going on with your wiring.

- Eric

Swoopy

thanks guys, it is strange.
stellar yup I'm confused.

Rob, nice deal on the helmets. my god those images had me spit my dinner milk!
By the way Swoopy is menacing, not as coo-coo! Got Owl! Love it!

Mdchanic thanks.
I'm trying to find how my system is working cause there is no way it follows the original path nor your example. Argh.
You example does follow factory and makes sense.
In the pics included it shows the wires, but when time is available I will get better pics and confirm what appears a working rigged charging system.
I have read countless threads on reg. and alternator and none have this queer setup.
thanks all, I will with your help find the cause and reason why this ghost system works.

Swoopy

Hi all.

thought I would update. my original synopsis was incorrect. The Alt. R is capped and not F.

so alt wiring; R capped, F to Reg. F, Bat to horn relay and #3 on Reg. and an additional ground attached tp Reg. ground.

Reg wiring; F to Alt F, #2 goes to idiot warning light, # 3 is original red small wire to Alt Bat. and #4 is cut or capped. Additional ground to Alt. ground. Reg. pic shows white wire in Alternator group batch wiring cut standing by itself.

Still perplexed that this works but it ran and charged battery so the Internet info was correct that only one wire is necessary?

I will return to original.

I apologize for wasting CO members time.

Back to garage.


note in regulator pic, the ground brown wire is connected to the screw sandwiched between condenser and is not to #4.

stellar

Now I see what is happening. The wire setup you have is correct for a car with a 507 delco reg and no indicator light, but having only an ammeter. This is not what you have since you say your light is comming on. I suggest you redo it with a new reg and rewire F to F (as it is) R to #2 #3 hot at all times like it is now and #4 to indicator light. This will solve your problem. I recomend you do not leave it as it is now.

Swoopy

Stellar, I'm keeping as is until I can add new wiring correctly.


Filled with water today, attempted to start after a long winter and new timing chain.


She turned over tried to start, ba bump, ba bump than died. Set timing a bit back and ba bump, ba bump and it had a 30 second run than backfire through carb. Put timing back to "0" and ba bump, large pop backfire through carb (holly 600 vac sec.)


Turn distributer to adjust timing and heard a high pitch click when moving coil and it dawned on me the ignition was on and the click was points. Turned off ignition. Reset timing and noting.


Pulled #1 plug and no spark, rats. Tried to see coil had spark, so pulled coil wire off distributer and it was a weak pitiful spark (one) than no spark.


Man, this is sucking the fun big time. So I test coil + side by meter to ground. On start it gets 12.45 or so and return to run blips 8 to 9. Sounds about to spec?


Test coil while on car, ignition off. + to - coil leads read 3.3 then settled at 2.2 Ohm while the + lead to center plug of coil reads 7 Ohm. Seems that coil is bad. Its one I had on the shelf from a 1970 olds and is original.


My original coil I noted was leaking oil so I know it was trash.


Prior to my timing chain replacement, it ran well until the brake booster vacuum (fixed) and it ran better. After booster fix, pulled a shift to second that hit hard and shift cable came loose so I limped home. jumped timing my guess.


Once in garage, it sounded like it had a big fat nasty cam so that's how I got here.


Frustrated. I have a new coil, points, cap, wires, rotor, plugs to do a tune up once it gets running was my plan.


I'll double check timing to make sure I didn't put the distributer off one way or the other. took several pics during reassemble of timing chain to know it was right and it was.


Prior to timing chain, timing mark was past the original timing tab and was 14 degrees. After new chain installed it went to zero on the timing tab. that made me feel good and also let me know timing was way off.


Could the large difference be part of this problem? I wouldn't think so.


I'm thinking put the new coil on and see what happens.


I had thoughts of a nice cruise, a few rocket launches and good times. Back to the drawing board, not happy.


Help...

MDchanic

Start from scratch with the timing - confirm TDC on #1 on compression stroke, then work from there, otherwise, you may end up chasing your tail.

- Eric

Swoopy

thanks, good advice Eric.

just re-read your thread on diagnosis of ignition system and will try a few of those tests to see.

First I'll check timing, than to ignition.

Reading all the threads on CO makes it seem easy breezy, nothing to it, well for the novice it's harder than it looks or read.

I will prevail! Dave.

MDchanic

True, but those troubleshooting directions do show you some nice shortcuts that require the absolute minimum of disassembly.

You'll have it figured out within an hour or starting.

- Eric

Swoopy

Yes I do agree it is a huge time saver. Plus its better than "Napa know how!"


Checked timing. Went through the cycle of #1, adding air to the cylinder as valve cover is set and painted. Just like everything else, dreaded Maws!


So didn't want to take it off.


Timing mark at "O", distributer at #1, valves closed, air blew crap in my face lesson learned. Rotate motor and add air when rotor is nearing #6 and air escapes down header pipe. Next pass # 6 on rotor, piston going down, add air and hear air coming up carb, yup intake opens. Next rotate to #1 on rotor and timing mark reaches "0". and #1 at top dead or very close, all is well. Right?


Checked spark plug wiring, correct.


Checked ignition from good sticky info, thanks Eric.


Not sure if I have a decent spark as it didn't look to scary to me. I thought the coil would have some oomph...Main coil lead to ground, wire about a 1/2 inch distance had a thin blue yellow spark and a click sound, not a pop. It occurred as often as I separated the points. (points system with original, well factory coil.)


If this spark had to travel through rotor, plug wires and jump plug gap, I'm not so sure it would be as hot, should say weak or weaker, as directly from coil.


Before I spend more time on the ignition, I thought I would prevent a loss of time if the coil main spark is weak. Seems to me, the last time it was running and I played with plugs, it bit me. The small blue spark did not seem to aggressive.


Thoughts? Should it POP! Scare me to use gloves or pliers?


Motor 1971 350, stock with new timing chain, intake and same 600 holly. Its been 3 months since the adventure started so I figured it may be difficult to start. Fuel is not a problem, in fact it flooded. Want to run to push the water through for leaks and get it out as it may promote rust.


Having fun one step at a time.

MDchanic

Good sparks are like obscenity - I know it when I see it.

The trouble is that that's very hard to translate through the interwebs (unlike obscenity. ).

From your description, it sounds like a weak spark. It should easily jump darned near an inch.

Main possible culprits are coil and condenser.

This is where a bug pile of old parts comes in handy. If you don't have one, see if you can borrow or scrounge a few spares to swap in before you spend cash on new parts you may not need.

Either way, both coils and condensers are reasonably cheap.

- Eric

Swoopy

I know I'm tired as I read obesity at first glance. Both are obnoxious. Well for some anyway...


I have spares so I will swap. Will post end result and main culprit.


Onward, Dave.

m371961

And if the coil or condensor doesn't make a difference, its a good spare for the trunk. Back in the days of point ignitions, I carried coil, rotor, condenser and points in car, don't take up any room, and get you back on the road fast. My road toolbox had a point file as well. I carry a distributor in my Ranger, it failed on me once and I got towed. After that it has failed three times and I got real good at switching it, then swapping the bad one under the lifetime warranty. The last one I rebuilt with standard ignition parts and it has held up.

Swoopy

She's Alive!


Double check timing, wires and spark. After reading many posts about timing problems and possible fixes, I decided to give her a turn.


I must say the best idea was to use a timing light when spinning motor by starter. Yup it was slow, but it gave me a photo of timing.


Thanks Joe P. Awesome! Easy, very productive and an accurate diagnosis of running timing. I was impressed how well it worked. I will share.


MDchanic your attention to detail and logic systematic approach is refreshingly crisp. Like my favorite beer, Heineken. Thanks.


Even though timing marks and rotor were correct, with motor spinning the timing light showed motor was retarded about 15 to 20 degrees (balancer mark was way after 0 mark) ? Turned distributer and ran it at 8 degrees BTDC and it ran at 1500 rpm. Noisy at first than it quiets down.


Oh I forgot to pull vac advance and when idle dropped, it didn't want to run and backfired though carb. I didn't want to run any longer about 2-3 minutes as it was dry prior to rad filling and turning with starter (pull water with pump), than add more water till full. I was worried that it may overheat or warp something. It got hot.


Vac advance will impact timing at idle right? I believe I read at idle and cruise due to higher vacuum. It seemed to want more advance.


I have a few leaks to wrap up, drain water (good idea guys, no mess and while it won't kill neighbors cat that walks on Swoopy and pees in my garage, it is easy to dispose) and fill with antifreeze water mix, time and tune.


Told my son to use his Little Red Rider BB gun as persuasion to correct this abhorrent behavior. He liked, me too, problem solved.


Getting there. Grinning ear to ear.


Thanks all, solid advice from olds guys.

MDchanic

Glad to hear you're making progress.

The vacuum advance will affect timing at idle only if connected to manifold vacuum.
If connected to ported vacuum, there will be no vacuum advance at idle, but it will come on as soon as you begin to depress the gas pedal.

If you are going to use vacuum advance at idle, you need to make sure that your vacuum advance can is not activated at, or within a couple of inches of, your idle vacuum. If it is, then you will encounter a positive feedback loop at idle: Idle vacuum activates vacuum can ——> Vacuum can advances timing ——> Advanced timing increases idle ——> Increased idle increases manifold vacuum ——> Increased vacuum activates idle can ——> etc.

- Eric

Swoopy

MDchanic-got it.
Vac is to ported, so no worries there, good. In my haste I hooked return spring to my now modified bracket as with the Performer things are slightly different, and it was bowed.
Cut 1/2 " off and idled now drops.

So like a dummy I left the rad cap off to top off and had it running with heater and forgot to re-install cap, it stalls and in seconds projectile puke 2 feet over fender and then on fender with hot mix. Rats!

So let it cool, fill and run again at low RPM and could now hear a high pitch whistle and it won't idle low without blipping throttle. 600 Holly vac sec. Started to eliminate vac hoses and it sounds like it's coming from center by carb.

Going to see if I a bolt left out of Edelbrock, or it's the sec cork vac gasket, and maybe open secondaries a little to see if its air whistling past sec throttle plates. Also check for vac leaks around carb.

Overall happy as the timing cover, water pump, intake and hoses have no leaks.

Just have to tighten up loose ends.

High pitch whistle, could be...? Any wisdom on likely causes?

Onward, Dave.

Swoopy

Work and no play make for non olds weeks.

banging my head now. Timing has been checked more than once, timing when running rough was 10 degrees.

holly sec vac is the issue, I think.

Carb is being gone through again. looking for a new carb as this old holly has never run right without a frequent cleaning. Buddies have then sit all winter, fire me' up and no worries.

thought timing was off.

But appears to be carb. Have to have air jets out 3 to 4 turns to idle and it hangs and won't come down. Fingers over carb primary and it runs better. Needs fuel so I thought it was a clogged Jett or passage. Floats ok, not flowing out of venturies.

no choke, just feather pedal until it warms, well use too.

Now to the point, timing first, than carb dial in right?

It won't idle now so it is very difficult to set timing. I figure lock it down at 10 degrees as it is confirmed and put cleaned carb back on.

We'll see after I go through the carb, new power value, clean with gumout and blow all passages.

Just stumped and want to drive this thing. Should not be this difficult after timing change and intake. No leaks found and carb vacuum hoses are blocked.

Will get this eventually... Anxious.

Oh, whistle sound was carb nuts were loose. Tightened and no whistle. Fun stuff!

MDchanic

I'm not a Holley expert, so I can't say anything specific about the carb., but if you've got an original distributor, then I would say to leave the initial timing at 10°BTDC to get started, and you can always change the timing a bit later on if need be (bearing in mind that that may require retweaking of the carb). If you are running HEI, then you should start at about 20°, but in either case, starting with your maximum centrifugal advance set to about 36° and then working everything back from there is probably the best way.

- Eric

Swoopy

The saga continues.
Problem arose after a 1st to 2nd shift kinda mid rpms say 2500 and cable clamp loosened on floor shifter. Pulled over, engine idled and put u-shape fastener back in cable grove, drove 3 miles home. Return home and idle sounds as if it has a fat cam and barely idles.

1971 350 mostly stock with factory 4 barrel intake I added and holly 600 vac sec, holly ran very well prior, I had changed jets #70, cam, pump nozzle and sec vac springs to tune for this large car and 2.56 gear.

So...

Rebuilt carb, clean as a whistle. It's not the carb. Well maybe, read that someone had a cracked holly...hmm.

New points, older condenser, new plugs, wires, cap and rotor. New to me used performer with ultra mr gaskets and new timing chain, gears and seals and H2o pump.

Timing, nope it's dead on at 10 degrees. Dwell 30 degrees and does not fluctuate. Snappy throttle, vac sec open after a few quick primed higher rpms crisp. Almost sucked the glove off my hand into primaries when seeing if I could clear any small particles out of circuit. At 1400 to 2000 rpms steady 10 degrees and no miss.

Noted that my charging system is mechanically challenged (like me) but works.

So the new to me intake is on and new timing chain with the ignition tune up.

It will not idle, power value replaced and tested by finger over primary vent tube and it wants to stall engine will run crisp over idle to high rpms but will not idle. Messed with idle jets and they don't make any difference. With old intake they were 6 turns out. Yea it had a leak.

Re torqued intake, pulled all vac lines and capped. Nothing is connected and it will not idle.

Put fingers over primary and it speeds up. Sounds like a vacuum leak and a large one.

Went over intake with carb cleaner and no difference at all mating items. Perhaps the mr gasket was put on wrong side toward head? I talked to a few buds and they indicate that I'm too ****, over thought things and when they asked how much rtv, I said 3 tubes. That was for the water pump and timing cover too. Anyhow after reviewing many posts, talking to a few buds, I believe I messed up the intake seal and perhaps it is on the inside of intake.
So off with the intake! I may put the old iron 4 barrel intake on to see if it's a warped used intake or cracked.

Not one oil leak or water leak. I laid the used performer on clean intake, no gaskets and it appeared to me to fit nice. After reading I 'll check fit with feeler gauges and may put back on with turkey tray.

Could timing be off by a degree or two? When I put new chain and gears on, I tried not to move crank or cam, but to fit the crank and cam gear, I had to move the cam slightly so that the cam dowel would fit the cam new gear. Not much, 1/16th to 1/8th inch movement of cam dowel to fit with crank gear. I could not move the chain as it would be off more than that.

When done, the timing marks of balancer was perfectly at zero and dizzy pointed to number 1.

Prior to new timing when car idle changed to fat sound and poor idle the balancer was at 15 to 20 degrees advanced.

Heck I thought I had it whooped.

Still there ? So my research says intake has vacuum leak and timing is ok.

Tomorrow I' ll pull intake off and take pics.

Hopefully it is the intake and a stupid mistake of an upside down or reversed gasket and way too much rtv.

Frustrated but know too well that I 'm a beginner.

Mr. Johnson, thank you the eyebrows arrived and were like described. Trustworthy person.

oldcutlass

When you put the timing set on, there were 2 dots that should have lined up on the sprockets.

Fun71

That would not cause the issues you are having. Years ago I installed a cam without degreeing it and the engine had poor low RPM performance but idled very well and pulled nearly 20" vacuum. I later discovered the cam was 8* retarded, so in your case a couple degrees would likely not even be noticeable.

MDchanic

I agree that at first glance it sounds like a vacuum leak - what's your vacuum at idle and how is the compression in all cylinders?

And, as Eric said, did the dots on the timing set line up?

- Eric

Swoopy

Fun 71, thanks that what's I thought.

Eric, never did either, I must admit I don't have those tools.

This weekend, I will acquire those as it wil be nice to have for future. I know the compression isn't going to be gang busters as when I was going through the 4 cycles of # 1, I used compressed air to listen to intake, compression, bang, exhaust while I watched rotor turn. When I heard intake open and then compression, the air compressor was on 90 # and it sent the piston down during bang stroke.
All other plugs were installed.

Yikes.

My buddy gave me bad thoughts as he said there would be a ball of RTV rattling around somewhere. Dirty bastard.

Thanks to all, Dave.

Yes dots lined up and took pics as others suggested to quell and second thoughts. just had to give a very, very slight turn to cam so that dots would line up and chain and gears would go on. It was not much, less then a tooth as. I tired a tooth but it was too much.

Good thought though.

Swoopy

Ok, intake is off. It appears I used too much RTV. The passengers side over crossover had stains from carb cleaner being sucked. I assume this was the source of leak.

Intake came off without too much resistance and RTV was stuck to gasket and head, none stuck to performer intake.

Photos are of ULTRA seal gaskets under RTV. Hope all is well in the cooling system and no ***** of RTV are rolling around or stuck.

Turkey tray going on this weekend.


Normal wear?

Have a laugh on me!

MDchanic

Oh my.

- Eric

Swoopy

Oh my is quite the response, I agree. It didn't seem like that much when installing.

Angioplasties is required.

Researched a while and noted many good threads and ideas for intake installation.

Only rtv on end rails with none to perhaps a tack spray or brush around intake and crossovers as has been shown by others. Fit dowel indents and file the one that does not fit so good.

Copper did an aluminum intake with turkey tray and it looked like no sealer on the intake sides. I'll ask him for a play by play. Crap that was 2013.

A little is good so more is better, nope.

Second times a charm. Having fun.

Swoopy

Well it's alive again and it idles!

Replaced the Ultra Seal gaskets and 2 tubes of RTV intake gaskets with a turkey tray.

Reading the CSM and posts on here on how to install turkey tray and did it without lifting permatex stock. Bought two tubes barely used a sixteenth of one.

Fitting the tray first is the key. First placed tray bare onto motor locating the 4 dowel holes. Drivers rear was difficult but it went. My procedure was to have a friend assist. That way I had extra hands to hold and press the tray to dowel holes and make sure the locating pins were set.

This entailed holding pins in place while one side was pound with fist to form the tray to the edge of head. When both sides were done, it fit into all 4 locating holes, no filing. We used permatex high tack around the intake ports on head and in the locating holes with none on the tray.

Than I placed RTV on ends and around water ports and on top of turkey tray water port openings and that was it. My friend had to restrain me from my over use of the stuff.

Placed the tray after the high tack set and pressed into place. Man it was perfect, I should have taken photos. No RTV squishing everywhere, just a slight amount.

Intake is on, looks clean, doesn't leak and idles. Vacuum is 17 to 20 depending on rpm.

Need to reset timing as it was 40 degrees advanced.

Busy week so looks like I will be celebrating Memmorial Day weekend with a cruise!

My distributor is stuck thread (small block) I explain how the vac advance did not work and points ground wire was broken. Not sure if it was before we attempted to swap vac cans or after. Since I did not want to or know how to change breaker plates or tack the wire to plate I just used an old 70 distributor that was on a shelf for 23 years. It ran like a champ. Love old simple tech.

Friend had me dimple the end rail of the performer intake. Worked well with tray and seals perfect and looks better than the composite gaskets showing through.

Thanks for the input gentlemen, much appreciated. Dave.