1of1442

My 70 442 has approximately 165k miles and I think I am hearing what sounds like a rear wheel bearing noise. I pulled the axles and the bearings appear to be original wth a very strange UFO looking collar with a large punch mark? They seem ok and after consulting my service manual it looks like the wear spec is .035 movement. I reassemble and “feel “ for play in and out. I don’t own a dial indicator but I they seem to have less play than that but not by much. I have read here that the OE style bearings are preffered but no longer available. I have found some US made tapered roller replacements but I’m wondering if I should leave well enough alone? My biggest concern is that I plan on drag racing this year and the closest track is 1 1/2 hour drive. Do I change them out or run them?

bry593

Rock Auto has both original style and revised replacements. You need to remove weight from axle, then use hand on hub to push radially (up like force of wheel) against outer race while rotating hub back and forth. If you feel any bumps (roughness) it is toast.

monzaz

IF you are going to race and you have no idea the condition and if you actually have that many miles on the bearings you should replace them... You can not expect 165K out of wheel bearing let alone drag racing the rear.

My opinion , your car.

monzaz

Both kinds? What part number are you looking up? I only see one correct they are all tapered?

Been looking for years nothing non tapered ... Maybe I am missing them?

Jim

bry593

Ball bearings. Old design is sealed bearing. New style is open to gear lube.

Fun71

The early (67 to 69) O-Type used a sealed bearing but the 70 version used an open bearing. The oil seals were different, as were the ends of the housing tubes and axle shafts to accommodate the different styles.

Is that what you meant by old design and new design?

monzaz

bry593 - He said both kind of oiled bearings Tapered and barrel type. The A9 at one time were barrel type and came from the factory that way NOT tapered oiled. They switch later to a NEW design saying it was better performing.... BUT since all the companies appear to making garbage and the specs are off on oil seal and bearing slop.... I was hoping he found the OLD style OILED BEARING.

Old Bower (brand name) bearings were non tapered oiled bearings and were usually from the factory set up . Meaning that the seal did not require as much preload to keep the bearing from riding out of the tapered race seat....

Sealed bearings are not even in this equation...sorry if you read it like that guys.

Jim
JD

1of1442

Thanks all for the input .The main reason for me asking is that I have read here about the changes to the tapered roller style bearing and monzaz’s opinion of the tapered versus ball bearing. The last thing I want to do is take the time and effort to cut off a better design bearing with marginal wear to replace it with a crappy design bearing and seal. I did get the Timken brand and confirmed that they are USA made. I did not check the country of origin on the seal. For what it’s worth the car had 132k on it when I bought it.
The previous owner was a lady that used it for daily driver and had it for a very long time, oh and it is an automatic car. Most if not all of the repairs and upgrades I have made , I have removed the OE factory parts . Even the rear shoes and hardware all appear to be original. I am sure I have been harder on the car than she was but, I have heard stories of her leaving work after a bad day, in a cloud of smoke.

monzaz

There are NO BALL bearing oil oiled bearing they are all seals for the BOP rear. 1970 ish is when Oiled bearings came into being used in the 8.2 and 8.5 rears.
Factory bearings started out being regular barrel square type bearings (NON TAPERED) Tapered bearing is a conical type bearing and with out the [pressure of the seal pushing against the bearing the axle would slide out and ride up to the inside of the axle tube. So you can see how critical the seal system of the oiled bearing is crazy critical. end play etc.

SO what I was asking the other guy that said there were 2 different kind on rock auto...I thought he was talking about OILED bearing differences only

Jim

bry593

Jim,

Take this link and about half way down the page you will find a description and pictures of the first and second design bearings used in the "O" axle.

https://www.supercarsunlimited.com/i...id/diff_id.htm

-Brian

OLDSter Ralph

I am sure Jim is well aware of the differences in differentials.

Fun71

Agreed.

If you read post #6 you will see an explanation of the differences.

Recall that the original question was about axle bearings for a 1970 O-Type rear.

droldsmorland

Hey Monzaz. What do we have as far as sources for USA made sealed outer bearings in Early "O" types?
Very late 67 to very early 70 is the life span on these rear ends, right? Which means the last few 67 bodied models and the first few 70 bodied models?
I did my 68 10 bolt "O" type many years ago when USA Timkins were available. I got to it before it welded itself to the shaft. Learned that lesson the hard way, dont drive it until its fixed or you'll need an axle too!

1of1442

[QUOTE=monzaz;1167456]There are NO BALL bearing oil oiled bearing they are all seals for the BOP rear. 1970 ish is when Oiled bearings came into being used in the 8.2 and 8.5 rears.
Factory bearings started out being regular barrel square type bearings (NON TAPERED) Tapered bearing is a conical type bearing and with out the [pressure of the seal pushing against the bearing the axle would slide out and ride up to the inside of the axle tube. So you can see how critical the seal system of the oiled bearing is crazy critical. end play etc./QUOTE]

Is there a spec or procedure for pressing the set 9 taper roller bearing on to the axle to achieve the correct preload/end play?
I have only had experience with the sealed 5707 bearing on the BOP axle and it seems like they have a step and I just press on until they stop?
Also, doesn’t the retainer plate that bolts to the housing hold everything in the tube correctly?

Fun71

The Set9 bearing presses onto the shaft the same as the sealed bearing. There is a step on the shaft.

You need to make sure you use the correct oil seal. Jim has informed us that there is one that isn’t the proper thickness and will give too much end play. I don’t have the number now but I’m sure Jim will post that info.

monzaz

[QUOTE=1of1442;1167636]Set9 / A9 bearing preload is all handled by the retaining plate seating against the 712146 SEAL THAT Is installed on the axle shaft between the retaining plate and the tapered bearing.

Reason the seal is so critical - proper thickness of the seal is all important on the 1970 -1976 bolt in gm axles ion the A-body and bolt in axle F-body PONTIAC 1969 early 70 (old body 1st gen)
Some 8.2 and 12 bolt OLDS a-body axles used the 2146 seal also...You the customer have to measure stuff to determine what is correct for your rear. Or you will need to take it to a compliant shop....WHICH there are VERY few of that know this axle system.

5707 bearing is a c-clip axle bearing and presses into the housing tube end and then the axle shaft sides in through the axle bearing and seal... both the seal and and bearing are PRESSED into the housing ...NOT on the axle shaft. That system is oiled from the gear lube in the center section also. This type of system was used in Chevy 10 and 12 bolt axles. and pretty much every 10 bolt axle from 1975 to today. Most all light duty trucks and Rwd cars in the 70s 80s and 90s were all c-clip

Your probably referring to the RW507CR sealed bearing that was on most all early BOP rears . AGAIN they never had issues with end play as they were sealed and ball bearing type bearings.... they may have needed to be change more frequently ...BUT much less hassle in the leak department in my opinion.
Engineering pitched a good meeting and GM bought it... it was only there for 6 years... then they ditched it and went with all c-clip as money crunch and low HP on cars and trucks anyway.... the oil crisis in the 70's hit just killing performance rides
BOY I remember those 70's emissions...like spaghetti under the hood with vacuum lines....LOL

Jim
JD

monzaz

Brian, That is not the 1st and second OILED bearing design. That is just the early and late design bearings sealed bearing 6465 66 67 68 early 69 and oiled bearing late 69 70 all the way to 1976 BOP rears differences.
The lower axle pictured on (SCU web site) is the Oiled bearing with BARREL NON Tapered bearings. THOSE were the GOOD design. Then they later started to replace those with the TAPERED Race and conical bearing system.... On the tapered bearing the seal thickness is critical to the end play and bearing riding in the race that is in the housing that is a slip fit.

I will get some pictures in a few days and post the 2 different Oiled bearing pictures for you guys...

Jim

monzaz

Laugh-er.... well Not to knock good old USA parts...BUT the work force just ain't what it use to be anymore. You have to CARE about what you build to get quality...Just because it says USA does not mean it is good. A lot of it is inspection problems letting garbage get by and into the market... Again failing to just do a quality control check on parts. I have been using Koyo and KOYO USA for 15 year now... Do not have any Bearing failures . You can read the boxes till your BLUE and parts are stamped some times...But geez, it is pretty hazy trying to weed through all the junk. Personally I have not had issues with ANY RW507CR bearings USA, Japan, China etc. Seems everyone has the right specs to these bearings...
Just those rotten a9 bearing and especially the 2146 seal and the 712146 seals... Usually anything GOLD and BLACK in color I do not buy 712146 or 2146.... They have always been wrong thicknesses.
I stick with the Timkin set 9 and the 712146 ...closest we can get to correct spec bearings and seals.



NO BETTER PLACE TO LIVE! USA.... opportunity is still out there... get out there and make it happen. Care about what you do.


Jim
JD

bry593

Thanks Jim for clarifying. Your explanation cleared up my confusion and I learned a few things about the later style. I didn't realize the late bearings were cylindrical roller. I assume the roller races are designed to deal with thrust loads? This is the problem with tapered rollers not used in pairs. Tapers only accommodate thrust in one direction and have to be properly shimmed. How does this aftermarket design deal with thrust in the opposite direction?

monzaz

All controlled by the axle seal.... THIS is why I keep saying that the thickness of this seal is critical. Jim

droldsmorland

I am a Supplier Quality Engineer for a large light rail manufacturing company. We are thoroughly fed up with the garbage coming out of some offshore manufacturers. And you are absolutely correct. Their processes and inspections are poor to nonexistent at best. Not always their faults as out drawings lack critical dimension callouts on the occasional old non-updated drawings. Why because the machining was over here and we just knew how to produce good parts. Now everything better be on the drawing.
The bean counters run the planet.
Fortunately, we have recourse with these hacks. BACK CHARGES and BLACKLIST. Spank them hard enough with back charges they will learn. If not blacklist...all done doing business. Eventually, as their workforce and processes improve they will come up to our standards. Then the cost will go up too. It is one of the laws of economics. Unfortunately, our generation is caught up in that transition gap. We will likely not see the quality improvement fully mature in our lifetime...at least not our time with turning wrenches

Thanks, Jim. It is nice to see such knowledge on these(till now) mysterious axles and how they have been revised from 60-70s.Steve

OLDSter Ralph

As a machinist til 10 years ago,.....the "buyers" would buy the cheapest materials available. "High grade" aluminum and titanium was made in America. "Steel" products came with "country of origin" stenciled on the outside. Russia, Italy, Mexico, Canada were all good. "China" was terrible. The steel was inconsistent in hardness and I suspect element composition (carbon, vanadium, molybdenum, etc.) As a result, drilling and tapping 1/4-20 or smaller meant broken taps here and there......to be removed. A lot of time was spent removing taps that wasn't figured in the job bid price.
Whether or not there were call outs on the blueprints, I am not sure it mattered. I remember a segment on "60 minutes" about flooring that was imported from China and was loaded with formaldyhide, beyond USA limits. There was also a segment on "counterfeit" aircraft parts from China.

72cutlass408

I tried a national 8594s rear seal on a 1969 O type axle and the seal is too tall. SFK website show their seal is a little shorter. My bearing retainer was hitting the seal and cannot be used. Anyone have this problem?

Fun71

Do you know what brand bearings are on the shafts? It could be the retainer is not the right spec.

72cutlass408

I’ll have to check tomorrow thanks

72cutlass408

It’s definitely the sealed bearing

Fun71

I have a couple new in box Federal Mogul 8594S seals for one of my O-Types that I bought many years ago and I just measured one. The metal portion of the seal at the thickest point (there is an outer edge then a rounded "hump" inboard of that) measures 0.525" thick and the inner rubber seal area measures 0.710" thick.

My measurements match the specs in the National Seal catalog:
https://www.timken.com/wp-content/up...talog_7707.pdf

So perhaps either your seal is not the right thickness or your bearing and / or retainer are not the correct thickness.

72cutlass408

The specs on the timken vs skf the skf is slightly shorter. I believe that’s going to work. I got the seal coming Monday we will see what happens.