No start problem
May 29th, 2015, 05:23 PM
#1
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Location: the motor city
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No start problem
My Cutlass just developed a problem with starting. I turn the key and nothing happens... not even a click under the hood. So far I've cleaned the battery terminals (they were already clean), and bought a new battery, with no change to the problem.
The problem is somewhat intermittent because I was able to start the car at one point and drive it home. But once I shut it off, it wouldn't restart.
I'm curious where the starter relay is located.
The problem is somewhat intermittent because I was able to start the car at one point and drive it home. But once I shut it off, it wouldn't restart.
I'm curious where the starter relay is located.
Last edited by Kestas; May 29th, 2015 at 08:25 PM.
May 29th, 2015, 05:57 PM
#2
Could be your neutral safety switch. What is year and model of the car? Automatic trans? You can try wiggling shifter if auto while trying to start or jumper the switch. It could be the starter or solenoid also.
May 29th, 2015, 06:22 PM
#3
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If all your connections are clean including the ground cable, then check voltage at the starter. With your shifter in neutral or park, if you put a meter or test light on the purple wire at the starter with the key in the start position you should see battery voltage. You should also have 12v at the big lug on the starter at all times.
May 29th, 2015, 06:35 PM
#4
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Try a start in Neutral instead of Park
If that does not work, try [with foot well on brake] running the gear selector thru all ranges while the key is in START position.
Then proceed to the troubleshooting as set forth above- is there power at the starter, is there power to the purple wire when in START position, etc.
If that does not work, try [with foot well on brake] running the gear selector thru all ranges while the key is in START position.
Then proceed to the troubleshooting as set forth above- is there power at the starter, is there power to the purple wire when in START position, etc.
May 29th, 2015, 06:37 PM
#5
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The car is a 71 Cutlass 350-2bbl, stock.
I just went back to the car, and it started more times than not. But it's still intermittent. Thanks for the tip about the neutral safety switch. That's why I posted. Good as I am, I can't always think of everything that needs to be covered.
I couldn't get it to start in neutral.
I'll have to catch it some time when it won't start, and gingerly go through the items posted above, and see if I can narrow down the problem.
I just went back to the car, and it started more times than not. But it's still intermittent. Thanks for the tip about the neutral safety switch. That's why I posted. Good as I am, I can't always think of everything that needs to be covered.
I couldn't get it to start in neutral.
I'll have to catch it some time when it won't start, and gingerly go through the items posted above, and see if I can narrow down the problem.
May 29th, 2015, 07:32 PM
#6
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I couldn't get it to start in neutral.
==============
1) indicating a neutral safety switch deterioration or adjustment problem
2) Let's be sure to differentiate between the STARTER system not working and the car "not starting" - The starter system does not need to operate to start the engine- think bump starting a manual trans car- but it sure is convenient.
So, specify please if you mean that the starting motor is failing to crank the engine, or if the engine is cranking but still refuses to start. I believe you mean the former, which should be easy, there are few components to the starting system.
==============
1) indicating a neutral safety switch deterioration or adjustment problem
2) Let's be sure to differentiate between the STARTER system not working and the car "not starting" - The starter system does not need to operate to start the engine- think bump starting a manual trans car- but it sure is convenient.
So, specify please if you mean that the starting motor is failing to crank the engine, or if the engine is cranking but still refuses to start. I believe you mean the former, which should be easy, there are few components to the starting system.
May 29th, 2015, 08:25 PM
#7
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Location: the motor city
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I thought I was clear by inserting the "not even a click" comment.
But yes, I meant to say that I have a no crank condition.
Where is the neutral safety switch located, for when I get under the car to poke around?
But yes, I meant to say that I have a no crank condition.
Where is the neutral safety switch located, for when I get under the car to poke around?
May 30th, 2015, 06:49 AM
#9
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Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,375
How about troubleshooting 101 before spending money on parts that may or may not be needed?
First, do any other electrical items work, like the lights? If so, the problem ISN'T the battery.
Once you've determined the battery is good, pull the connector with the two purple wires off the neutral safety switch. Run a jumper wire from the battery + terminal to the NSS connector (I use a jumper cable with a small wire clamped into the clip opposite the battery). Now jumper this hot wire to the purple wires in the connector you just pulled off. One goes to the ignition switch and will do nothing when you jumper it. The other goes to the starter solenoid. If this causes the starter to spin, the problem is the NSS or wiring from there to the ignition switch. If the starter does not turn, the problem is either the starter or the wiring from the connector to the starter or starter to battery. That narrows down your choices and avoids spending money on unneeded parts.
First, do any other electrical items work, like the lights? If so, the problem ISN'T the battery.
Once you've determined the battery is good, pull the connector with the two purple wires off the neutral safety switch. Run a jumper wire from the battery + terminal to the NSS connector (I use a jumper cable with a small wire clamped into the clip opposite the battery). Now jumper this hot wire to the purple wires in the connector you just pulled off. One goes to the ignition switch and will do nothing when you jumper it. The other goes to the starter solenoid. If this causes the starter to spin, the problem is the NSS or wiring from there to the ignition switch. If the starter does not turn, the problem is either the starter or the wiring from the connector to the starter or starter to battery. That narrows down your choices and avoids spending money on unneeded parts.
May 30th, 2015, 06:51 AM
#10
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year and model of vehicle please
engine size might help also
as for where the solenoid is, it is the gold colored canister atop the starter motor shown in this ad
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Moto...fb7376&vxp=mtr
ah yes, I missed that I guess.
What work has been done lately? Look first at the thing most recently "fixed"
You do have the wiring diagram and/or a chassis service manual, right? This will show what components are involved and perhaps where to actually find them and what they look like. What color the wire of interest is, etc.
Another good trick is to look up your part on say rockauto.com, see if there is a photo of one. Then you at least know what to look for.
Handy dividing point is the purple wire under the hood, LH side, going to the starter- depending on year and model. With an assistant holding the key to START, test for voltage there with light or meter. You have to catch it misbehaving of course. This will show you if the problem is upstream or downstream from here.
Joe's hotwiring at the NSS method is handier for a single person. Plus you get familiar with the NSS location and appearance.
1) No volts- work back to the NSS typically found on the steering column or on the console shifter. Somewhere the NSS is connected to the shifter linkage, so it can tell if the gear selector is in Park or N or D or what. If the NSS has volts coming out and going in and is not loose or melted or obviously broken, follow the wiring back to the ign switch. Etc. according to the wiring diagram.
2) Has Volts- therefore the Ign Sw and NSS are feeding volts to here, that leaves downstream only a few parts and junctions
Battery cables and their terminals- which was surely the first thing you checked
Solenoid and its purple activation wire and connection- they deteriorate with age and heat, especially down on the solenoid.
the starter motor itself - brushes do wear out...
The ground connection from starter case to engine block- that strap on the LH side- often left off
If the starter is not grounded, then you can witness the curious phenomenon of the starter case, which should always be at zero volts, showing a nominal 12V with respect to the battery (-) post when activated. Unlikely but it has been seen.
Since you are not getting even the solenoid click, most likely your ign sw or NSS is failing and occasionally not providing the power to the purple solenoid activation wire. Or, the solenoid is getting the activation signal but is simply failing. In my experience, this is less common. The solenoid is grounded thru the starter, and if the starter itself is not well grounded.... neither is the solenoid.
Ground strap is seen peeking up behind the starter in this ad
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-1967-Ol...864dcc&vxp=mtr
they look like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-66-67-6...f32eb2&vxp=mtr
engine size might help also
as for where the solenoid is, it is the gold colored canister atop the starter motor shown in this ad
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Moto...fb7376&vxp=mtr
What work has been done lately? Look first at the thing most recently "fixed"
You do have the wiring diagram and/or a chassis service manual, right? This will show what components are involved and perhaps where to actually find them and what they look like. What color the wire of interest is, etc.
Another good trick is to look up your part on say rockauto.com, see if there is a photo of one. Then you at least know what to look for.
Handy dividing point is the purple wire under the hood, LH side, going to the starter- depending on year and model. With an assistant holding the key to START, test for voltage there with light or meter. You have to catch it misbehaving of course. This will show you if the problem is upstream or downstream from here.
Joe's hotwiring at the NSS method is handier for a single person. Plus you get familiar with the NSS location and appearance.
1) No volts- work back to the NSS typically found on the steering column or on the console shifter. Somewhere the NSS is connected to the shifter linkage, so it can tell if the gear selector is in Park or N or D or what. If the NSS has volts coming out and going in and is not loose or melted or obviously broken, follow the wiring back to the ign switch. Etc. according to the wiring diagram.
2) Has Volts- therefore the Ign Sw and NSS are feeding volts to here, that leaves downstream only a few parts and junctions
Battery cables and their terminals- which was surely the first thing you checked
Solenoid and its purple activation wire and connection- they deteriorate with age and heat, especially down on the solenoid.
the starter motor itself - brushes do wear out...
The ground connection from starter case to engine block- that strap on the LH side- often left off
If the starter is not grounded, then you can witness the curious phenomenon of the starter case, which should always be at zero volts, showing a nominal 12V with respect to the battery (-) post when activated. Unlikely but it has been seen.
Since you are not getting even the solenoid click, most likely your ign sw or NSS is failing and occasionally not providing the power to the purple solenoid activation wire. Or, the solenoid is getting the activation signal but is simply failing. In my experience, this is less common. The solenoid is grounded thru the starter, and if the starter itself is not well grounded.... neither is the solenoid.
Ground strap is seen peeking up behind the starter in this ad
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-1967-Ol...864dcc&vxp=mtr
they look like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-66-67-6...f32eb2&vxp=mtr
Last edited by Octania; May 30th, 2015 at 07:07 AM.
May 30th, 2015, 10:34 AM
#11
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 13,807
The NSS is in the same location (base of the steering column) for column and console shift on the 71-up models, and both also have the same backdrive linkage and locking collar on the steering column, so essentially there is no difference in operation between the two. I found this back in the 90s when comparing my first car ('70 Supreme with a Dual Gate) and my current '71.
Last edited by Fun71; May 30th, 2015 at 11:01 AM.
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