Cman7713

Hey guys,

So i'm a little stumped here. I've spent the last year finding parts and putting alot of time and money into my 69 Cutlass S. I just recently finished A full drive train rebuild and this car feels like a slow poke. It runs well and sounds very nice but I have no power. Won't even chirp the tires if floored. I'm gonna list what I have done and hopefully someone can see room for improvement or what should have been different.

69 350 block bored .030 over
Stock Crank turned and polished
Speed Pro Forged pistons
supposed to be 10:1 compression according to builder. I did not confirm this
Unknown headers
2.5" exhaust with x pipe http://www.jegs.com/i/PYPES/958/SGA11SSV/10002/-1
Edelbrock 1405 600cfm carb
Edelbrock Performer 3711 intake
Erson TQ20 cam
Duration @ .050: 214/214
Lobe Center: 111
Stock #5 heads cleaned/new valves
TH350 rebuit, shift kit #30228 installed
2400 stall Torque converter dynamic manufacturing
Factory 3.42 gears with 588 posi carrier


I wanted this to be a weekend street cruiser for my dad and I. Everything listed has been done within the last 9 months. I feel like for what I have this car should be quicker. It just doesnt feel fun to drive,my ford Edge has better pick up. I'm not a mechanic and this was my first attempt at putting together a build list from what seemed like 100's of different opinions and suggestions. Someone shoot me some recommendations please.

RetroRanger

distributor and timing specs ?

initial
mechanical
vacuum

Cman7713

Distributor is a second hand older Delco HEI unit. Timing numbers I don't have off the top of my head but can get them later.

Rustbucket2

Just fixed the same problem, was all vacuum , hooked to wrong ports, had trans hooked to intake, should have gone to carb.

Fun71

The ignition timing can have a dramatic impact on power, so you need to find the answers to the questions RetroRanger posted.

Do you know if the camshaft was degreed during installation?
Many years ago I did a cam swap and while the engine ran fine, it had no low end power. I had used a parts store generic timing set and lined up the dots. When I went back in and checked it with a degree wheel I discovered it was 8º retarded, which explained the lack of power. After that I have always degreed the cam during installation and always recommend others do the same to ensure it is correct and not just "stick it in and hope it's where it should be".

Cman7713

According to the build and break in sheets from my builder the cam WAS degreed during install. I will check timing when I get in the garage tonight or tomorrow. Thank you for the replies btw.

MDchanic

The transmission vacuum modulator connects to manifold vacuum, not to ported vacuum.

Exactly where the modulator picks up manifold vacuum doesn't matter.

- Eric

redoldsman

If you have a vacuum gage, put it on and see what kind of vacuum you are getting. Listen to MD and he will get you there.

Rustbucket2

I don't know what happened then, she runs like a scalded cat now.

svnt442

With the HEI the initial needs to be set to 18° - 20° instead of the 6° - 8° speced for the points distributor unless you install a recurve kit in the HEI.

Fun71

Correct, and I can confirm that the engine will be down on power if you set the HEI to 10º or so initial. It'll probably run warm, too.
I know this as I used to de-tune my '71 to pass the annual emission tailpipe sniffer.

olds 307 and 403

As said confirm your timing, 36 total in by 3000 rpm. Buy either the Moroso recurve kit or a recurve kit with the lighter springs. I would throw that carb in the bush and sell the intake. A Street Demon 750 will be better with the Performer RPM intake. You could try a 1" spacer with your current combo but it should easily roast the tires.

TripDeuces

Stock valvetrain?

My442

Back up and start to use the process of elimination:


1. Do a compression check
2. Determine your timing (initial and mechanical advance)
3. Check the carb for proper jetting
4. Fuel delivery - known good fuel pump/filter?
5. Proper spark plug range and gap?
6. Any vacuum leaks?


If all that checks out, then:


1. Are the rockers adjusted properly?
2. Correct length pushrods?
3. Was the cam degreed in?

You should be making at least 325 HP, and with that rear end, the car should be pretty quick.

Octania

Route the tailpipe or exhaust manifolds into the carburetor, making the entire engine a huge turbosupercharger. Use the Kaleco O-pipe exhaust. Oh, and install an electromagnetic fuel line molecule polarizer. You will have to buy a lot of tires due to being unable to stop them from spinning constantly.

Cman7713

Sounds legit, where do I find these parts?

Cman7713

Yes Trip stock with the exception of new stainless steel valves installed.

70cutty

I can't help you with diagnosing or recommendation, but I can only add that I was disappointed with my small block build too. Poured all kinds of money into a 355 build only to be disappointed by the power it was making. Comparing it to some of the Chevy engines in my other cars it was a dog. Ended up with big block.

olds 307 and 403

My car Olds 350 and 403 had tons of low end torque, even if they ran mid 14's to mid 15's, equal to that in 1/8 anyway. We are talking 1/4 block burn outs with the same gear and stall. A lot of people have issues with Edelbrock carbs, after setting the timing, if it doesn't improve a lot, swap carbs. The Street Demon 750 should give more power AND better mileage than the dated AFB (Edelbrock) design. 70Cutty did you have big valves and port work done? No port work or bigger valves is working against the original poster but it should still be an easy 14 second car.

steverw

I agree with Olds307, I think that carb is garbage. Put a good Holley, or a Quick Fuel 750cfm, even a good Quadrajet built right is a killer carb, and a better intake. Chances are your distributor needs going through and recurved too.

gs72

X2 on timing curve. I had a Chevelle years ago that I swapped out the tired 307 for a 350 out of a wrecked corvette. On the first test drive it was a total pig. I called one of my friends to help me figure it out. When he came over he had a pair of tiny thin advance springs in his hand. We put them on and "viola" it ran like a raped ape. The vette had a man trans and apparently a very different timing curve. Just something to think about, what did the dist. Come out of?

Cman7713

Put a timing light on this morning. There is no timing tape or very clear defining mark on my harmonic balancer hah. What I THINK is the notch for TDC looks like a groove painted black. Anyway with vacuum at idle I was seeing 17ish btdc. With vac pulled from distributor and plugged I was seeing 5ish btdc. This also changed my idle rpm from around 1k to 650. I did not go any further until I know for sure where tdc is marked on my HB.

Fun71

Good plan. You definitely need to determine where the TDC mark is.

If that really is 5º initial advance then you have identified the problem. The HEI likely has around 16º or so mechanical advance, so 21º total advance would result in a significant lack of power.

Octania

Agreed. I found some write-ups on the internet when fitting the HC 403 with non comuterized HEI. tweaking the timing made a world of difference. I had to learn how to calculate advance from measurements that can be made at the bench. Installed the travel limiting VA can and held the VA to 10-11 degrees. I had all that with pix on RealOldsPower.com but then, surprise, it crashed and all that was gone.

"Sounds legit, where do I find these parts?"

Interwebs, my man!

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main...products_id=41

http://hooniverse.com/2010/06/25/hoo...o-you-believe/

olds 307 and 403

If you do have around 10 to 1 compression, buy the crane adjustable vacuum advance and it comes with lighter springs too. As said 10 degrees of vacuum is plenty with high compression. I have seen a couple of different curves in HEI's but most need around 20 degrees at idle with vacuum advance disconnected and plugged for 36 total. So 15 degrees retarded, not good. The mark is the big line across the balancer but double check it.

Cman7713

So you set vac advance at 10-11 degrees. Does this mean at idle with roughly 16-20 degrees btdc that most people are recommending for initial idle you'd be at 26-31 or so with vac attached at idle? I also found info that the GM HEI distributor has a centrifugal advance of 20 crank degrees with stock weights. With that said, if you were aiming for 36 degrees BTDC total timing i'd want my initial idle at 16 btdc with vac advance plugged. Aiming for the additional 20 centrifugal for a total of 36 to come in around 3500 RPM by tweaking the spring weight? So the additional 10-11 degrees of vac advance should not factor in to total timing?

RetroRanger

Correct ....base + mech = 36 ish + vac = 48 ish total

Fun71

I don't know where you saw that info, but most HEIs have ~16º centrifugal (mechanical) advance. So for 36º total, the INITIAL would be set to 20º.

MDchanic

... And regardless of what you've seen, heard, or read, the only thing that's important is YOUR distributor, so measure yours, and go from there.

- Eric

Cman7713

All good info, thank you guys.

olds 307 and 403

I agree with Eric, I have seen a couple of different advance curves in HEI distributors. You can tailor the advance curve with lighter springs like the ones that come with the Accel or Crane adjustable vacuum advance canisters. Stock springs are quite stiff. The after market vacuum advance cans are adjusted with an Allen wrench and include instructions.

Fun71

The springs will definitely change the rate at which the advance comes in, but the total advance is controlled by the contour of the mating surfaces of the center bar and weights. There are a variety of center bar and weight configurations as well, including aftermarket parts such as the Moroso HEI Advance Curve Kit, which gives 24º mechanical advance.

So yeah, as Eric said, measure your distributor to determine what you have and not what I or anyone else says you should have.

Cman7713

Turns out initial timing was literally 0. Found my builders marks on the balancer and timing indicator painted in yellow, was very hard to see. I went up to 17 initial for now with 36 coming in around 3500-4000. Completely different animal now. What used to lazily move me forward on the pedal broke the rear wheels free and swung me sideways. I was NOT expecting such a night and day difference. Thank you guys for the input.

Octania

Old Racer's Advice, still holds true:

"It's your timing, son."

in combustion, as in comedy, timing is everything.

TripDeuces

"In combustion as in comedy, timing is everything."

Oh I like that