A local guy has a 1969 442 convertible that he got in the early 1970's. Life happens and it got parked 20 plus years ago. Maybe 3 or 4 years ago he's at a car show and starts getting excited about reviving his car. A local restoration shop says he can restore it for a reasonable price so the owner takes out a second mortgage on his home to do the car. Along the way the owner decides to customize some things, not what I would do but its his car. The restoration shop is willing to do whatever he wants. Time goes on and the shop keeps giving him bills, lots of repo parts are purchased, and the costs continue to rise. At this time he's spent $120,000 on the restoration and the car is still in pieces I have repeatedly suggested he cut his losses and take it to another shop, but he keeps hoping this guy will wrap it up soon and he'll be able to drive his dream car. No contract was ever signed as the shop owner seemed like a good trustworthy guy. The car owner isn't rich, he's an average guy working in the field of construction. I've provided odds and ends for his project and I'm just sick at what he's spent and what he's going to have when it's all done. The shop needs another $10,000 to finish their part, then it will still need a complete interior and new top. The amount of money he will have in this car is several times what the value of the car will be. I don't know how this shop owner can do that and still sleep at night.

 

The shop owner is not a "good trustworthy guy" as he appears to be padding his retirement at the customer's expense...even in these times, that number is excessive. Maybe you should step in and have a chat with that "trustworthy guy"

 

I would agree (with your friend's permission, of course). But I don't think this leech deserves any more. Your friend really needs to be talked into getting his car out of there *now*! Let him know that besides you, there are others out there willing to help him (and not help themselves to his wallet).
And then I'd report this guy to the better business and do some other advertising for him. $120k in receipts should be all the ammo you'd need.

 

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to be sympathetic. First, five minutes of research on the internet will give you a good idea of what a completely restored car is worth. Second, anyone who enters into a project like this without some idea of what the final product will be and what it will cost is asking for trouble. Like it or not, a business owner's goals are to 1) make a profit and 2) do what the customer wants. If a customer continues to pay his bills and ask for more work to be done, I wouldn't say no.

 

What kind of custom work is being done? If its really top quality work its pretty easy to tie up that kind of money. There should be lots of documetation of everthing done and detailed parts list.

On the other hand there are guys getting ripped off right and left especially on custom / protouring type cars. There are several threads going on right now in the Pro-touring and lateral-Gsites on this very subject.

On a side note as I was driving through the Columbus Ohio fair grounds for Goodguys a few months ago I got waved into the Pro's Picks area. Once I got parked and saw the cars around me and started talking with owners many of those cars had 150,000+ tied up in having thier cars built. I was a knife in a gun fight with my beater. If this guy is trying to emulate what he sees at a show like that and paying someone to do it that what is going to take. I could build a car like that for 50,000-60,000 pretty easy but when you are paying someone $80.00-100.00 per hour to work on it things add up fast.

 

I agree Joe that the owner needed to use some better judgement and bears some responsibility, he used a Barrett Jackson auction to set the value of his car. Examples of the custom work, $1500 for hand built headers and $500 to attach the hood tooth to the hood without a line between the two pieces. If the car owner was Jay Leno then sure, whatever he wants. Considering the economic position of the owner I think the shop should have discussed this in more detail. As I understand it they never sat down with a pencil and paper to discuss the project, list out the tasks to be done and the cost estimate of each. The shop has just continued to putter away and send the owner bills. Even at a shop rate of $75 an hour I have a hard time seeing how they could have spent that much money on the car in 3 or 4 years. Let's give them $40,000 in parts and material which I would consider generous. That leaves $80,000 for labor and it still needs $10,000 in work, pretty much all labor and that doesn't include the interior or top. Yes the car owner should have been proactive and got more details before handing his car and a blank check to the shop. But I think the shop owner should still have some ethical issues operating this way.

 

Whats the name of the shop? PM me if you don't want to make it public $1500.00 for well build custom headers is more than fair. You can spend 900.00 without blinking on regular stainless headers. If they have a few guys working on the car thats more hours to flag to a car per day. I'm not saying the shop is in the right and I'm not saying they are in the wrong. I would like to see who it is and I will leave my judgment until then.

One other thing is parts. Most shops are going to mark up parts. If there is say 40,000 in parts tied up at 25% mark up thats another 10K to the bill.

 

It doesn't take long to spend a lot of money when you are having all the work done by others. I am in construction and people just about explode when I tell them the shop rate for an electrican is 85.00 and hour for T & M work plus parts and all they want is a micro wave installed. Lets see one hour travel to the job 4 hours labor to install the circuit plus parts and don't forget 9% sales tax. $523.20 later thats when their heads explode. Use similar math on a full restore plus custom paint, engine, etc, you get the point.

Thats why most of us do all of the work we are capable of doing rather then farming it out, otherwise I could not afford to own the cars I have.

 

Materials $ X 3 is a good rough estimate for just about any trade.

 

Well, in that case he probably has another $100K or so to go...

If the only tool you own is a checkbook, you probably shouldn't be getting into a project like that. Sorry, but this is no different that people loosing a bundle on real estate because they didn't know what they were buying. Having someone build you a car is fine, but you had better know enough about the project to ensure the product and final cost are what you expect.

...Unless you're Jay Leno and can afford a dedicated staff to build your own cars personally, of course.

 

There are good business ethics and bad ones. Any reputable business man/woman should watch out for their customers; not bury them with B.S., not take advantage of their stupidity or ignorance; but use honest business practices to bring the customer back, again and again, and in turn, keep their business thriving through sustained honesty and fairness.

IMHO, if this guy was really had, he needs to seek out an attorney.

 

There are a couple things that seem a little odd in this guys story. He takes out a second mortgage on his home to do this restoration. If he took out enough of a mortgage to pay $120,000+, what was he expecting? If he is just a working guy, that is a lot of equity in a home since it will take considerable more than $120,000 in equity to get the loan. And then he is going to have to be able to repay the loan. Something just don't smell right.

John, if this guy is looking to you for anything other than advice, I would drop it in low and haul azz. I hope I am wrong.

 

"523.30 later and that when their heads explode." LOL!! That one got me. It sounds as if he had planned to make some money on a turnaround. I used to own a shop and we would have cars there for months whos owners would pay a bill and add another project onto the car. One camaro had 80k in it. Not all from my place though. We just tuned it for him.

 

There was a guy in Caladonia NY that would not give me a estimate but he showed me 4 cars taken apart that there owners had spent all there money they had and run out of funds the parts were sanded not primed. Needless to say that dirtbag didn't touch my car.

 

I will agree that there are good and bad business people. On the other hand, has anyone here developed a budget BEFORE starting a project car and actually finished the car within budget?

Didn't think so.

Restoring an old car is like remodeling an old house (yeah, I'm in the middle of that, too). You never know what you're going to find. There is no way to produce an accurate estimate without first taking it completely apart.

 

Which reinforces the fact that you should do as much of the work yourself in order to keep down. One of the reasons I belong to this site is to learn about skills the I lack in order to do more of the work myself. While the 455 is at the machine shop I am starting on finishing the body work on the 48 with the help of the threads on this site, plus I will be asking for pointers along the way.

 

While I also prefer to do everything myself (it's the building that I enjoy, like a 1:1 scale model car kit), the reality is that some people lack the skill, space, tools, or desire. There's nothing wrong with paying someone to do the work. My only point was that in that case, the owner has a responsibility to understand exactly what is to be done and to have a rough idea of what is involved to avoid surprises.

 

I'm glad that I bought an already restored car this first time around after 25 years - well, a restored car that was done 8 years ago and well kept. In the three months that I've owned it, I have made $2500 in improvements, and will be spending probably another $1000 immediately. The NADA book value of the car is still much higher than what I've put into it. (I am not including maintenance items like brakes, lights, tune-up parts, etc. - these are recurring expenses that are a fact of a car's life).

My goal for my car (and myself- we are as one) is not to put any more $ into it than it's worth. However, I believe like I think most on this Forum - I am enamored with my car. It is a labor of love and if I had to, really had to buy something that would increase expenses beyond the mark (within reason), I probably would. (The same holds true for real estate, by the way, especially for the house your living in - good analogy Joe).

Value in the market place, within our captive audience of car enthusiasts and owners, may be an interesting thread in itself - as I haven't seen much consistency with what true car value is for the classics; NADA pricing in my opinion, doesn't give an accurate picture of what that market will bear. For example, looking at costs provided in the Paint & Body threads in our Forum alone shows that a car's value can be easily taken beyond the NADA pricing threshold.

My humble advice is to always keep in mind the value of your car and base it on your cash outlay, using the variables available, and simply find what the market will bear. Don't extend cash outlay past that mark, unless it's just for you, and if that being the case, realize it may not reflect an increased value to your car.

 

Very well put, Dan.

 

I'm sorry. This story is many things, but it is not sad. If anything, it is funny. Not because of what's happened to this guy, but because of how indignant everyone is getting over this.

I don't feel very sorry for this guy. Anyone smart enough in life to accumulate $120,000-plus to spend on something as unnecessary in life as a car restoration has to have a few marbles upstairs. He has to know perfectly well what he's doing and what this shop is doing.

I hear YOU complaining about this restoration shop, but is HE complaining? As others have said, not everyone has the skills necessary to do a restoration themselves, and they're willing to pay whatever they need to in order to get the car they want. In the end, this fellow will have a car that is worth less than what he spent on it. Welcome to the club!

 

I guess 1000 hrs labor some at minimum wage some not , figure $75000...

Cars is worth $75000 maybe, so he's buried. Lets say he wants to win a show , the new parts won't get it ....

Did the builder get nos parts ..?

 

I can see (maybe) pumping deep money into the more eclectic or rare cars (Hemis, Shelbys, Z's W's) but a plain ol' 442 'vert? That's crazy. But then it's his car and his money. As for the guy doing it? I own and operate a small business where my customers not only need my services, they are required to use them. My customers generally have no idea what is involved and request that I service them more often than necessary. I tell them 'No'. I would rather earn the trust of my customer so that if/when the time comes that they need to spend more money, they can do so knowing that it is legitimately needed. Taking advantage of the "uninformed" is not good business.

 

I jokingly call my cars my "money-pits" but this guys' car is a mine shaft! I always say one may get back fifty cents on the dollar (and labor is free) when one sells a car. Being a convertible 442 he should have went the NOS route for the most value. Sooo, when's his divorce? All my cars were dragged out fields or off hilltops usually for thier engines because I drag race. The ones I fixed up weren't to bad or I took a like-ing to them. My hobby paid for itself because I've parted out 40 or so Olds. I feel bad for this guy but it is self inflicted. I wish my luck, Ken

 

I agree, you have to have a number that you need to stay within, and work with the shop on that. I looked around at a few shops before I made a decision. You have to visit more than once and ask lots of questions. The shop I picked is awesome. They know my budget, and let me come in on weekends, and evenings to do the grunt work to save some money. We agreed on a shop rate, and we talk every time I am there about where it is, and what else needs to be done. You have to stay involved. Over the past 9 months I have learned a lot about old cars and restorations, and how much time this stuff takes. You also have to be willing to put some sweat equity into your car. When mine is done I will be able to point out what was done, what I did, and know it was done right.

 

Theres 2 ways to see this
1) A fool and his money are soon parted.

OR

2)A man can save his money and when he's departed
some other fool will part with it.

I say spend your money on what you want you're not here forever.
Just don't cry when your moneys gone.

 

2blu442, are you saying the guy is paying too much relative to the quality of the work? Or are you saying he's over-restoring the car and spending money he can never recover if he sells the car?

Without knowing the guy or seeing the quality of the work, it sounds to me like he's been dazzled by the type of high-end show cars you see on TV and in magazines and is trying to emulate that type of restoration. For example: Filling the seam where the hood tooth attaches. Sure it's a small thing, but it indicates the direction he decided to take the restoration. If he asked the shop for that level of detail at every step along the way, it'd be easy to stack up $120K in receipts.

Lots of people spend several times what a car is actually worth to get it just the way they want it. (Just look at what the lowrider crowd puts into their cars.) Does it make financial sense? Well, no. But sometimes that's not relevant to the owner.

It also reminds me of stories I hear from a friend of mine who is a homebuilder. His clients are at the higher end - $500K and up in a market where the median price is under $150K. As they start picking out fixtures, hardware, etc. the price sometimes creeps up and up and up. Why? Because it's their chance to have everything exactly the way they want it, so they are reluctant to cut corners. It sounds like that could be what happened here.

Or his restorer really is an opportunistic jerk. :-D

I sense reality is somewhere in the middle. We'd all like to think our restorer would pull us aside and say, "Hey man, you sure you want to do all these extras? It's going to cost way more than the car is worth." But some guys, who are otherwise decent and ethical, just do what they're asked and assume the customer knows what he's getting into.