VikingBlue

Over the weekend, two sets of outlet and light switch pairs two feet apart controlling two lights in close proximity stopped working. No electricity coming from either outlet and neither light turns on. Basement breaker box is mostly unlabelled, but I wouldn't think these things have their own line and everything else in the house works suggesting it's not a bad breaker. And I don't know which breaker it is, so I don't want to guess and turn off a different circuit when I replace switches.

Thoughts about what and where the problem is ? Do wall switches go bad, causing others wired from them to go out ?

jaunty75

Are any of the breakers already flipped? This should be obvious as it will be pointed one way while all the others around it are pointed the other way. If none are flipped, and you don't have confidence in your electrical troubleshooting skills, which is the sense I'm getting from your questions, I would call an electrician.

Also, as much of a pain as it might be, devote an hour of yours and someone else's life to get those circuit breakers labeled. While you stand by the box, have someone else ready to go through the house to tell you what lights go off as you go through the breakers and turn them off one at a time. Cell phones for each of you come in handy here if the breaker box is in the basement and you've got a second floor. You need this information now and in the future, and it's surprising that whoever installed the electrical box didn't do it at the time of installation. It might even be a code violation to have them unlabeled.

VikingBlue

I have above average but not an electrician's' capabilty here (else I wouldn't need to ask) and did check that all the breakers are ON. I don't think it's a breaker issue since it's unlikely these two switch/outlet pairs have a dedicated line and everything else in the house works.

My question is, do switches and/or outlets commonly go bad ?

jaunty75

While anything's possible, not in my experience. Are any of these circuits protected by a GFCI? One GFCI, if wired correctly, can protect an entire circuit consisting of any number of outlets and switches. It's like a second circuit breaker. If it trips, and it often doesn't take much to trip them, all of the outlets and lights protected by that GFCI will not work. If there is no GFCI involved, and if there's no tripped breaker, then you might very well have a bad outlet or switch. If there's more than a few, it can get old pretty quickly removing each one and substituting in a new one. You would also still have to identify which breaker controls that circuit so you can turn it off while you're swapping the outlet or switch. You'll be doing a lot of switching this breaker off and on as you go through testing each outlet or switch.

If it were me, if the circuit breaker is not tripped and there's no tripped GFCI yet I'm still not getting power to outlets and/or switches, I'd call an electrician, especially if there is more than one outlet or switch that's out. I don't know how a single bad outlet can take out other outlets and switches around it unless a wire connected to it has become physically disconnected and there's daisy-chain wiring involved, which, again, while not impossible, would be very unusual.

jharsh

That's what I was thinking. I would be looking to ensure there is not a GFCI outlet near the outlets that are not working.

Koda

I did my breaker box eval this Jan the hard way. Lots of stairs.

The breaker might be internally fried. Chances are that is indeed one breaker. One way to tell is pull the cover off the breaker panel and check 110 voltage from the wire attachment point of the breaker to a ground. This is dangerous if you grab the wrong thing or short.

A better way is to power everything in the house on, and shut down all breakers. Evaluate your breakers as you turn each one on, write it down, then leave it on and then turn off everything attached to it by its switches (ie normally), then do the next breaker. Chances are, your bad breaker is broken inside and loose.

Flip all breakers from the side, reaching, and looking away in case of arc flash.

VikingBlue

no, no tripped GFI. yes,my gut is series/chain wiring such that one affects the other. thanks for the tips. I may indeed call an electrician. Re: labeling all the circuits on the panel...is one of those things that you usually don't think you'll need to do until too late !

VI Cutty

You didn't mention whether there has been any kind of maintenance or minor reno work done recently, even something innocuous as changing a seemingly unrelated electrical fixture or patching a wall. A friend of mine experienced something similar which was traced to a junction box with a bad twist connection. Tiling a backsplash disturbed it enough that a wire lost contact.

JohnnyBs68S

Before calling the electrician, check to make sure the screws on the switches / outlets are tight (including outlets that may be feeding power to them). I've seen some weird stuff with so-called "certified contractor installed" house wiring:

At my old house, I noticed some strange flickering of lights in one bedroom. Didn't think much about it for weeks / months, until one day I was walking past another bedroom (that had outlets on the same branch circuit as the ones that were causing flickering lights) and I hear a "bzzzt" noise coincidental with the flickering lights. I pulled a dresser away from the wall I heard the noise from only to find an outlet that looked burnt and was HOT to the touch!. I immediately shut off that breaker, disassembled the outlet cover and pulled it out of the box to find that one of the screws holding the wire to the outlet was loose and arcing, generating a lot of heat in the process. While I probably narrowly averted a fire, the worst part was that this was an outlet I had installed myself when I was converting all the outlets in the house from 2-prong to 3-prong grounded outlets years prior.

At my dad's house, not long after he had some exterior walls replaced by a contractor, the refrigerator in the kitchen was acting up, and sometimes appeared to be without power. Once it had failed completely (no power at all), I was able to begin tracking down the source of the problem. One of the outlets that had been replaced by the "certified licensed contractor" was "pig-tail" connected to the branch circuit using wire-nuts. One of the wire-nuts was charred and upon removal from the joint where 3 wires were connected to each other, I found that the insulation on one of the wires was stripped back so little that it left only about 1/32" of bare copper in that joint, leading it to arcing and the intermittent power going to the fridge.

At my current house (newly built in '08), we had a circuit breaker for our master bedroom trip. It would also not reset, indicating a hard short in the circuit somewhere. One by one I would disconnect the feed to the next outlet until I isolated the short somewhere between two outlets. I had thought that maybe the romex was pierced by a nail or drywall screw somewhere along its route in the walls and up over a sliding glass door to the deck and was strategizing how much drywall I was going to have to tear-out to replace that run. I took a step out on the deck to get some fresh air, only to discover that there was an exterior outlet right next to the door. I disassembled that outlet to find that a long wood-screw that was holding the outlet box to the framing had pierced the romex as it entered the box shorting the hot and ground together. I was amazed that it took ~3 years before that finally shorted through.

I could relay 3 more issues I've found in my "new" house wiring, but you get the point. My recommendation is to check for workmanship problems like this "upstream" from where your outlets / switches have lost power. I seriously doubt that 2 switches and 2 outlets all went "bad" at the same time. Your problem is either in one of those two boxes, or in the box that feeds power to them. USE CAUTION and check for power with a test light or volt-meter before removing the switches / outlets from the boxes.

Will22

Did you make sure you don't have a GFCI outlet in your basement?

47 Convertible

[QUOTE=Koda;1123773]I did my breaker box eval this Jan the hard way. Lots of stairs.

The breaker might be internally fried. Chances are that is indeed one breaker. One way to tell is pull the cover off the breaker panel and check 110 voltage from the wire attachment point of the breaker to a ground. This is dangerous if you grab the wrong thing or short.

Three relatives in my family are electricians and all have told me at one time or another that its not unusual for a breaker to go bad. They will shut off when circuit is shorted but don't flip so you can't see the circuit has a short. The solution is as others have said to take inside cover off and test circuit breakers one by one until you find the bad breaker. They much prefer fuses for circuit protection as there is no doubt when a fuse is blown. Unfortunately fuses in residential wiring are a thing of the past..

VikingBlue

No remodeling since we bought the house two years ago....Will....I assume there's a GFI in the basement and I didn't check there, but in the room I refer to (kitchen) and bathrooms on the same floor in case these outlets share that line, no tripped GFIs. I guess it's possible these two dead kitchen outlets are on a circuit with basement wiring.

Every outlet and light on the 1st and 2nd floor works fine.

'47...it could be a bad breaker, but I simply don't think these two outlets and lights would be the only things on the circuit. Of course, if I knew which circuit it was I could just replace the breaker....I've done this a few times in a prior (very old) house.

Thanks again, all....

Will22

It's hard to speculate how your house is wired. I have been an electrician for 30 years and have seen just about every scenario imaginable. I would check every GFCI receptacle in your house.....it's possible there may be one on an outside receptacle as well. While a breaker can go bad, it generally shows up when it trips unless it has a poor connection to the bus and has been arcing which causes heat. When that happens you would normally have seen your lights flickering.

JohnnyBs68S

[QUOTE=47 Convertible;1123788]I've also seen loose screws on the breaker generate excess heat, which causes the breaker to trip (breakers and fuses cut power as a result of HEAT being generated by the current being drawn by the circuit). Either turn off the breaker before attempting to tighten these screws, or use an insulated screwdriver and rubber gloves. Try not to "lean" on anything with the other hand that might be grounded.

Cincinnati Rick

Troubleshooting 101: In almost all cases, there is (1) failure that causes multiple failures in an electrical circuit. Don't get side tracked looking at collateral failures caused by this single failure.

There are some good points made by everyone that has responded to your post. If you would like to troubleshoot this problem yourself, give me a call or shoot me an email. I'd be more than happy to walk you through the process.

513-383-9732
rick@acelectric.biz

VikingBlue

thanks all ! never thought to look at outside GFI outlets. a great suggestion....wife used electric hedge trimmers over the weekend and maybe that is related.

Rick...i may take you up on that !

Cincinnati Rick

The outdoor GFCI receptacle could very well be the culprit. There are many "production" electricians that wire homes that way. I always locate GFCI receptacles indoors whenever possible. I hope it's a quick fix but please don't hesitate to contact me if needed.

TripDeuces

Light switches and outlets typically have two ways of securing the wires to them. They have a push connector and they have screws. Remove the switches/outlets and see how they were hooked up to power. If they are using the push connectors take the wires out and attach them to the screws securely. Push connections are notorious for failing.

Jamesbo

Hint, Check your extension cord. Is it still in one piece or two

RandyS

When the problem is isolated to only a couple of outlets, it is almost always related to a GFCI. A bad breaker would show 'tripped' every time, and as you mentioned, it would be extremely rare to have only a couple of outlets on 1 breaker. If an outlet went bad, it would not affect the continuity to other outlets down the line. My money is on a tripped GFCI outlet.

Cincinnati Rick

I was thinking the same thing

I'm leaning towards a tripped GFCI as well however, I have seen breakers that were tripped but appeared to be in the on position. Taking a volt meter and checking the load side of each single pole breaker would eliminate a tripped or bad breaker.

RandyS

HaHa, been there, done that........

Dave26

Another possibility could be a bad non GFCI receptacle when multiple receptacles are wired in parallel. In some locations, when wired in parallel, the receptacles are wired one to another without pigtailing them from the two wire cable. If wired this way, one bad receptacle will cause all receptacles down the line not to work.

Weezer

My house was built in '01, and the GFCI in the garage was also on the same circuit as the basement. Almost on the same level of stupidity is the over-the-range microwave on the same circuit as some of the wiring on the 2nd floor. Doesn't seem to be a lot of intelligence put into the thought process of the wiring at all. Thanks, Pulte!

Also, that microwave circuit... when it trips, you can barely tell that the breaker is tripped, as it doesn't switch all the way over.

Fun71

That sounds like a good place to investigate. I had a similar issue at my house, but in reverse. I was using an outside receptacle for the hedge trimmer and it suddenly stopped. The wife in the upstairs bathroom was blow drying her hair and her dryer stopped as well. Found that both circuits were connected to the same GFI in the bathroom.

VikingBlue

Well, thanks to you guys, problem solved. And in quite an embarrassing and simple way. Based on input here I went looking for GFIs. My outside outlets aren't GFIs and all worked.

The adjacent non-working outlets & switches are on one side of my kitchen, above the counter. There are cabinets above the countertop and wall space, and drawers below on either side of an opening for a chair to fit in. A prior owner converted this kitchen counter area to be used as a desk.

After looking outside as explained above, on a whim I pulled out the chair under the kitchen countertop and looked behind it. Yes, a GFI there. Hidden by the chair and also obscured from view since back behind the counter about a foot above the floor My kid when sitting at the desk must have kicked the Test button.

Seems a very peculiar place for an outlet (under a kitchen counter). There are eight other outlets in the kitchen which are above the counter, (4 are GFIs...which I know aren't all necessary unless on different circuits)...so the hidden placement of this one seems strange. Probably pre-dates the counter over it.

DOH !

jaunty75

Very good! An electrician would have charged you probably at least $80 or $100 for the service visit, even if he spent only 5 minutes fixing your problem.

We're no different. Please remit as soon as possible.

Will22

I'm glad you solved your problem. As I said, its hard to speculate on why some things in a house get done but I have had many calls similar to yours and the majority of the time it was a GFCI issue.

VikingBlue

Jaunty...of course!

JohnnyBs68S

Glad you found the problem. Any outlet within 8' (IIRC) of a sink or tub must be GFCI protected per current NEC code. All outside and garage outlets are also supposed to be GFCI protected. If the GFCI under the counter is outside that dimension (including any outlets or fixtures protected by that GFCI), you might consider replacing it w/ a standard outlet to prevent future "nuisance" trips.

Cincinnati Rick

Within 6' to the edge of tubs, shower stalls and sinks.
All kitchen receptacles that serve the counter top surfaces.
There's a handfull of other locations as well.
BTW, GFCI receptacles come with stickers that read " GFCI Protected". These stickers are supposed to be installed on all receptacles (cover plates) on the load side of the GFCI receptacle. This may have focused the OP in his hunt for the problem.