Hot Starter Issues
October 13th, 2011, 09:14 AM
#1
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Hot Starter Issues
I sat in traffic during a cruise the other night, and the car wouldn't restart after a brief stop. (71 SX 455) It seems to do this when it gets pretty hot. I'm going to pull the starter and have it rebuilt, but does anyone have any ideas for keeping it cool? The exhaust pipe is pretty close to the starter, was there originally a heat shield, or has anyone tried header wrap on the exhaust pipe?
October 13th, 2011, 09:43 AM
#3
delete
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Location: Long Island, NY
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DEI-010402/?rtype=10
I have something like this on mine. Throw everything you can at it.
I have something like this on mine. Throw everything you can at it.
October 13th, 2011, 12:05 PM
#4
CH3NO2 LEARN IT BURN IT
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Land of Taxes
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Make sure the secondary (battery) cables and solenoid wires and terminals are clean, tight and in good shape. Also insure the engine ground is tight and clean, (that'd be the neg battery cable where it attaches to the engine block).
On my mostly original 68 442 Holiday, I use the Ford style mini sol heat shield and I wrapped the head pipe with a heat blanket that attaches to the pipe with worm gear clamps. I got the 24" blanket. Its sold through Jegs. Works great so far. This car was also prone to heat soak at the carb. A heat sink spacer under the carb helped this prob. 11:1s tend to run a little hotter.
On my mostly original 68 442 Holiday, I use the Ford style mini sol heat shield and I wrapped the head pipe with a heat blanket that attaches to the pipe with worm gear clamps. I got the 24" blanket. Its sold through Jegs. Works great so far. This car was also prone to heat soak at the carb. A heat sink spacer under the carb helped this prob. 11:1s tend to run a little hotter.
October 13th, 2011, 08:26 PM
#5
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Thanks for all the great ideas. There's a shop here that rebuilds starters, and they mentioned putting a weaker spring in the solenoid so it won't hang up when hot. I also have a new neg. cable, and will replace the pos. cable with a custom made one from the battery shop. They made a real nice cable for the neg. side and only charged me $7.50. 
October 14th, 2011, 01:47 AM
#6
'87 Delta 88 Royale
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Margate, England
Posts: 2,513
I had heat soak problems with a 350 diesel and 307, the starter struggled to turn the engine if I stopped for a short while after a spell of hard driving.
Both starters were good, with heat shields in place and stock manifolds.
To get round this I simply opened the hood to let the heat out while I was stopped.
Usually a bunch of people would come and have a look at the engine bay, it's not often you get to look under the hood of an old American car in England outside of a car show!.
Roger.
Both starters were good, with heat shields in place and stock manifolds.
To get round this I simply opened the hood to let the heat out while I was stopped.
Usually a bunch of people would come and have a look at the engine bay, it's not often you get to look under the hood of an old American car in England outside of a car show!.
Roger.
October 14th, 2011, 08:29 AM
#7
CH3NO2 LEARN IT BURN IT
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Land of Taxes
Posts: 4,846
Actually what you need is the HD truck solenoid with a stronger spring not a weaker one. The solenoid hanging up is not condusive to hot starting problems(generally). What happens in a heat-soak condition is, the windings of the sol and starter motor get hot thus inducing more resistance thus requiring greater effort on everything including the battery to do the same job as when cold. This is where the weakest link will show up.
Get a high compression spec starter (identified by a longer body, longer copper connector from solenoid to motor lead found in W30 442s etc...) remove the sol it comes with and install the HD truck solenoid on it (one ton chevy truck 350 or 454 sol) with a heat shield. Then wrap the exhaust head pipe with the blanket I described in my last post.
Then make sure everything else is up to par...battery(load test it hot... get a higher CCA rated battery), cables, clean connections etc...Ill bet it solves your problem.
Get a high compression spec starter (identified by a longer body, longer copper connector from solenoid to motor lead found in W30 442s etc...) remove the sol it comes with and install the HD truck solenoid on it (one ton chevy truck 350 or 454 sol) with a heat shield. Then wrap the exhaust head pipe with the blanket I described in my last post.
Then make sure everything else is up to par...battery(load test it hot... get a higher CCA rated battery), cables, clean connections etc...Ill bet it solves your problem.
Last edited by droldsmorland; October 14th, 2011 at 08:39 AM.
October 14th, 2011, 10:55 AM
#8
Texas Jim
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Killeen, Texas
Posts: 437
I had heat soak problems with a 350 diesel and 307, the starter struggled to turn the engine if I stopped for a short while after a spell of hard driving.
Both starters were good, with heat shields in place and stock manifolds.
To get round this I simply opened the hood to let the heat out while I was stopped.
Usually a bunch of people would come and have a look at the engine bay, it's not often you get to look under the hood of an old American car in England outside of a car show!.
Roger.
Both starters were good, with heat shields in place and stock manifolds.
To get round this I simply opened the hood to let the heat out while I was stopped.
Usually a bunch of people would come and have a look at the engine bay, it's not often you get to look under the hood of an old American car in England outside of a car show!.
Roger.
October 15th, 2011, 07:08 AM
#9
'87 Delta 88 Royale
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Margate, England
Posts: 2,513
Thanks Jim;
Running an American car costs less than a Mercedes, BMW or Jaguar, gas mileage is similar, parts are also cheap, on a par with Nissan prices over here, and when I visit Texas (Llano, not far from you) I load up with spares at the local auto parts store and save even more.
And they are much easier to work on than typical European/Japanese cars, I put a clutch in my gfs daughters Peogeot 406 last year. It requires the engine and gearbox to suspended and the subframe removed from underneath - takes a day to do the job. An engine swap on my '83 Riviera took 5 hours and I made a couple of mistakes on the way, thats when I found the flexplate on its 307 is smaller than on a '74 350!.
Roger.
Running an American car costs less than a Mercedes, BMW or Jaguar, gas mileage is similar, parts are also cheap, on a par with Nissan prices over here, and when I visit Texas (Llano, not far from you) I load up with spares at the local auto parts store and save even more.
And they are much easier to work on than typical European/Japanese cars, I put a clutch in my gfs daughters Peogeot 406 last year. It requires the engine and gearbox to suspended and the subframe removed from underneath - takes a day to do the job. An engine swap on my '83 Riviera took 5 hours and I made a couple of mistakes on the way, thats when I found the flexplate on its 307 is smaller than on a '74 350!.
Roger.
October 15th, 2011, 08:32 AM
#10
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First of all, it sounds like you have been driving this car for a while, and it just started happening. In other words, it's not a new restoration, or you didn't change a bunch of parts and now there is a problem.
First thing I'd do is check the battery. When they get old and start to fail, they lose power and it usually shows up in cranking an engine and a hot engine usually is harder than a cold one.
I had an identical problem on a Pontiac 455, but that was freshly restored. I was afraid to stop for gas, because it woyuld hardly turn over. As stated check that you have good tight, clean connections on the on the battery and all the wires to the starter, and ESPECIALLY the ground to the block. My problem was a brand new negative battery cable that one of the parts suppliers sold me that was 4 gauge and should have been a 1 or 2 gauge. A 2 gauge will flow about 10 times as much current as a 4 gauge, and a similar increase for a 1 vs. a 2. You could also say a 4 gauge has 10 times the resistance as a 2 gauge, which means a hot starter and hot cables build more resistance compared to cold ones. And cables that look good on the outside can deteriorate on the inside.
Another thing is there are different starters for various engines. A 455 requires more torque than a 400 and a 400 requires more torque than a 350. You can usually tell the difference by the tabs that come out of the starter and connect with the bottom screw of the solenoid where the wires attach. A heavy duty (455) will have 2 thicker tabs. A medium (400) will have 1 thick and 1 thin tab, and a light weight (350) will have 2 thin tabs that bolt to the bottom of the solenoid.
But if has worked fine for a while, but suddenly developed a problem, before I bought a new starter or any other more expensive fixes, I'd have an auto parts or battery shop check the power of the battery when they put a load on it. And I'd make sure all the connections were clean (metal to metal, not metal to paint) and tight, to rule out the simple things. And brand new starter won't work if the wiring or the battery is the real problem.
First thing I'd do is check the battery. When they get old and start to fail, they lose power and it usually shows up in cranking an engine and a hot engine usually is harder than a cold one.
I had an identical problem on a Pontiac 455, but that was freshly restored. I was afraid to stop for gas, because it woyuld hardly turn over. As stated check that you have good tight, clean connections on the on the battery and all the wires to the starter, and ESPECIALLY the ground to the block. My problem was a brand new negative battery cable that one of the parts suppliers sold me that was 4 gauge and should have been a 1 or 2 gauge. A 2 gauge will flow about 10 times as much current as a 4 gauge, and a similar increase for a 1 vs. a 2. You could also say a 4 gauge has 10 times the resistance as a 2 gauge, which means a hot starter and hot cables build more resistance compared to cold ones. And cables that look good on the outside can deteriorate on the inside.
Another thing is there are different starters for various engines. A 455 requires more torque than a 400 and a 400 requires more torque than a 350. You can usually tell the difference by the tabs that come out of the starter and connect with the bottom screw of the solenoid where the wires attach. A heavy duty (455) will have 2 thicker tabs. A medium (400) will have 1 thick and 1 thin tab, and a light weight (350) will have 2 thin tabs that bolt to the bottom of the solenoid.
But if has worked fine for a while, but suddenly developed a problem, before I bought a new starter or any other more expensive fixes, I'd have an auto parts or battery shop check the power of the battery when they put a load on it. And I'd make sure all the connections were clean (metal to metal, not metal to paint) and tight, to rule out the simple things. And brand new starter won't work if the wiring or the battery is the real problem.
Last edited by brown7373; October 15th, 2011 at 08:40 AM. Reason: spelling
October 17th, 2011, 12:27 AM
#11
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I pulled the starter over the weekend, and the wiring harness and positive cable looked suspect. I'm taking the starter to a local rebuild shop in the morning. There were no heat shields on the car, but I found these from The Parts Place. Anyone know which is original? I'm guessing the first one, but which one does a better job?
STARTER HEAT SHIELD
Product Name Price Quantity
EL10115T
(1964 - 1977 Cutlass/442) STARTER HEAT SHIELD - MOUNTS BETWEEN STARTER AND FRAME AND IS A SHIELD BETWEEN THE EXHAUST PIPE AND STARTER AS WELL AS A BRACE FROM THE STARTER TO THE FRAME.
$29.00
EL5527T
(1964 - 1975 Cutlass/442) HEAT SHIELD FOR STARTER SOLENOID (V8) - TWO PIECE DESIGN RIVETED TOGETHER. MOUNTS TO THE OUTSIDE OF SOLENOID TO PROTECT THE EXHAUST MANIFOLD HEAT FROM THE SOLENOID.
STARTER HEAT SHIELD
Product Name Price Quantity
EL10115T(1964 - 1977 Cutlass/442) STARTER HEAT SHIELD - MOUNTS BETWEEN STARTER AND FRAME AND IS A SHIELD BETWEEN THE EXHAUST PIPE AND STARTER AS WELL AS A BRACE FROM THE STARTER TO THE FRAME.
$29.00
EL5527T(1964 - 1975 Cutlass/442) HEAT SHIELD FOR STARTER SOLENOID (V8) - TWO PIECE DESIGN RIVETED TOGETHER. MOUNTS TO THE OUTSIDE OF SOLENOID TO PROTECT THE EXHAUST MANIFOLD HEAT FROM THE SOLENOID.
October 17th, 2011, 07:45 AM
#12
Texas Jim
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Killeen, Texas
Posts: 437
When I pulled my '71 455 apart, the heat shield in the top picture was on it. I bought the ('71 Olds 98) car from my neighbor's daughter, her father was my neighbor f/ many years and passed away. He had bought the car new. It was all original and had sat f/ about ten years while my neighbor was sick. The starter on the engine looked like it had been on there f/ a very long time and it's still cranking the engine up today, no problems. Providing your starter is in good working order, and has the heat shield installed, you ahould have no problem, unless something else is causing it. Had that problem on my 'Vette. Went to NAPA and got a new starter, rechecked all the connections, battery, etc. and have no more problems. And that's w/ the header right next to the starter. I don't find that the 455 puts off any more heat than the SBC in my 'Vette. It's just that sometimes, you have to chase down the "weak link" in the starting system, and it can be a pain in the neck. All the input you've gotten so far is great. Looks like these guys have covered all the bases, as usual. A great bunch of guys.
Roger,
Interesting facts. I thought that the old American car would have run you into some money where you are. I sometimes feel like I'm living in the pre-historic times, as I have all mechanical machinery, nothing computerized. I like the basic logical rides of yesterday. I even took the little computer, which only governed fuel and ignition, off of my 'Vette, as it was a big hastle everytime something went wrong w/ it. Being the last year of the carb f/ that model, '81, it didn't take much work. It did however have a spider's web of vacuum lines and sensors, etc. on it. I now have it running quite clean and ALOT stronger. When you ever get back to Texas, please drop me a line. I'd really enjoy meeting up w/ you f/ a sandwich and a cold-one, I'll buy. Thanks f/ the "get-back," and good luck w/ your old car wrench turning.
Roger,
Interesting facts. I thought that the old American car would have run you into some money where you are. I sometimes feel like I'm living in the pre-historic times, as I have all mechanical machinery, nothing computerized. I like the basic logical rides of yesterday. I even took the little computer, which only governed fuel and ignition, off of my 'Vette, as it was a big hastle everytime something went wrong w/ it. Being the last year of the carb f/ that model, '81, it didn't take much work. It did however have a spider's web of vacuum lines and sensors, etc. on it. I now have it running quite clean and ALOT stronger. When you ever get back to Texas, please drop me a line. I'd really enjoy meeting up w/ you f/ a sandwich and a cold-one, I'll buy. Thanks f/ the "get-back," and good luck w/ your old car wrench turning.
October 17th, 2011, 07:51 AM
#13
Texas Jim
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Killeen, Texas
Posts: 437
When I pulled my '71 455 apart, the heat shield in the top picture was on it. I bought the ('71 Olds 98) car from my neighbor's daughter, her father was my neighbor f/ many years and passed away. He had bought the car new. It was all original and had sat f/ about ten years while my neighbor was sick. The starter on the engine looked like it had been on there f/ a very long time and it's still cranking the engine up today, no problems. Providing your starter is in good working order, and has the heat shield installed, you ahould have no problem, unless something else is causing it. Had that problem on my 'Vette. Went to NAPA and got a new starter, rechecked all the connections, battery, etc. and have no more problems. And that's w/ the header right next to the starter. I don't find that the 455 puts off any more heat than the SBC in my 'Vette. It's just that sometimes, you have to chase down the "weak link" in the starting system, and it can be a pain in the neck. All the input you've gotten so far is great. Looks like these guys have covered all the bases, as usual. A great bunch of guys.
Roger,
Interesting facts. I thought that the old American car would have run you into some money where you are. I sometimes feel like I'm living in the pre-historic times, as I have all mechanical machinery, nothing computerized. I like the basic logical rides of yesterday. I even took the little computer, which only governed fuel and ignition, off of my 'Vette, as it was a big hastle everytime something went wrong w/ it. Being the last year of the carb f/ that model, '81, it didn't take much work. It did however have a spider's web of vacuum lines and sensors, etc. on it. I now have it running quite clean and ALOT stronger. When you ever get back to Texas, please drop me a line. I'd really enjoy meeting up w/ you f/ a sandwich and a cold-one, I'll buy. Thanks f/ the "get-back," and good luck w/ your old car wrench turning.
Roger,
Interesting facts. I thought that the old American car would have run you into some money where you are. I sometimes feel like I'm living in the pre-historic times, as I have all mechanical machinery, nothing computerized. I like the basic logical rides of yesterday. I even took the little computer, which only governed fuel and ignition, off of my 'Vette, as it was a big hastle everytime something went wrong w/ it. Being the last year of the carb f/ that model, '81, it didn't take much work. It did however have a spider's web of vacuum lines and sensors, etc. on it. I now have it running quite clean and ALOT stronger. When you ever get back to Texas, please drop me a line. I'd really enjoy meeting up w/ you f/ a sandwich and a cold-one, I'll buy. Thanks f/ the "get-back," and good luck w/ your old car wrench turning.
October 17th, 2011, 03:01 PM
#14
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Glendale, AZ
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So do you think the original style heat shield came on the A bodies too, or just the big cars?
Ditto on the advice, it's a great group here! I couldn't get through my build without the expert that I get here.
Ditto on the advice, it's a great group here! I couldn't get through my build without the expert that I get here.
October 18th, 2011, 12:40 AM
#15
'87 Delta 88 Royale
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Margate, England
Posts: 2,513
The original style heat shield looks just like the one on my '79 diesel Olds Delta 88.
It might not be identical, the starter was twice the size of a gas engine one.
Jim;
We get to Texas normally in March/April, a day in Kileen sounds great, I've only ever passed through, maybe stopped for gas but never looked around.
Running an American car doesn't come cheap, but a lot less expensive than you might think. My car does 28 miles per British gallon, more importantly it still manages 22mpg pulling our caravan.
Roger.
It might not be identical, the starter was twice the size of a gas engine one.
Jim;
We get to Texas normally in March/April, a day in Kileen sounds great, I've only ever passed through, maybe stopped for gas but never looked around.
Running an American car doesn't come cheap, but a lot less expensive than you might think. My car does 28 miles per British gallon, more importantly it still manages 22mpg pulling our caravan.
Roger.
October 19th, 2011, 12:20 AM
#16
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Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 662
You'd think by now I'd realize there are no short cuts here... it's just replace everything and be done with it. At least I have some good local shops I'm dealing with, so here's the latest damage estimate:
rebuilt starter $50
new positive battery cable $20
original style heat shield $29
new engine wiring harness $120
optional trans kick-down harness $20 (found those wires in bad shape)
__________________________________________________ _________
peace of mind on the next cruise night *priceless*
(watch for future questions on dealing with the harness replacement)
rebuilt starter $50
new positive battery cable $20
original style heat shield $29
new engine wiring harness $120
optional trans kick-down harness $20 (found those wires in bad shape)
__________________________________________________ _________
peace of mind on the next cruise night *priceless*
(watch for future questions on dealing with the harness replacement)
November 11th, 2016, 03:01 PM
#17
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 513
OK I bought both heat shields from PArts place as well as replacing solenoid with heavy duty one.
Heat shield for starter, even though a copy of the original hit the exhaust flange, curves were out when they needed to be in and vice versa. I fixed that, now lots of clearance.
We'll see
Heat shield for starter, even though a copy of the original hit the exhaust flange, curves were out when they needed to be in and vice versa. I fixed that, now lots of clearance.
We'll see
November 14th, 2016, 03:25 PM
#18
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 513
OK Same Hot Start problem
Had my local guy replace solenoid supposidely.
NO CHANGE
Once hot and trying to restart like nothing there...
Cool down after 45 min., then Wahm starts right up..
Has anyone had good luck with a peticular type f solenoid that solves this problem??
Brand:
Who purchased from:
the car I have is showed and judged, so I need to keep stock appreance...
Help please.....
Fred
Had my local guy replace solenoid supposidely.
NO CHANGE
Once hot and trying to restart like nothing there...
Cool down after 45 min., then Wahm starts right up..
Has anyone had good luck with a peticular type f solenoid that solves this problem??
Brand:
Who purchased from:
the car I have is showed and judged, so I need to keep stock appreance...
Help please.....
Fred
Last edited by FStanley; November 14th, 2016 at 03:32 PM.
November 14th, 2016, 03:50 PM
#19
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
So, now that you've spent time and money without doing simple troubleshooting, because the cause of the problem was obvious, try this:
Get under the car again, drop the %#$@ starter, and neatly connect a 10 or 12 gauge wire to the S terminal, and run that wire carefully around (avoiding the hot manifold) to the battery, strip the end, and leave it capped off and tucked away there.
The next time your starter won't turn, open the hood and touch the end of this wire to the (+) battery terminal — if the starter spins right over, then the problem is cumulative resistance in the factory wiring of the solenoid circuit, and no amount of parts replacing will help.
If the problem remains the same, then there is no doubt that it is in the solenoid or the starter (if the solenoid clicks in solidly, the problem is the starter).
Believe it or not, these cars were designed and tested to start and run well in temperatures down to the negative thirties way up North, and up to the 120s or 130s in Death Valley; the starter should spin regardless of how hot the engine has gotten, provided that it isn't so hot as to be fatal (with some leeway left for cars with headers that are driven very hard, which produce heat that is outside the original design parameters).
- Eric
Get under the car again, drop the %#$@ starter, and neatly connect a 10 or 12 gauge wire to the S terminal, and run that wire carefully around (avoiding the hot manifold) to the battery, strip the end, and leave it capped off and tucked away there.
The next time your starter won't turn, open the hood and touch the end of this wire to the (+) battery terminal — if the starter spins right over, then the problem is cumulative resistance in the factory wiring of the solenoid circuit, and no amount of parts replacing will help.
If the problem remains the same, then there is no doubt that it is in the solenoid or the starter (if the solenoid clicks in solidly, the problem is the starter).
Believe it or not, these cars were designed and tested to start and run well in temperatures down to the negative thirties way up North, and up to the 120s or 130s in Death Valley; the starter should spin regardless of how hot the engine has gotten, provided that it isn't so hot as to be fatal (with some leeway left for cars with headers that are driven very hard, which produce heat that is outside the original design parameters).
- Eric
November 14th, 2016, 06:09 PM
#20
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 513
OK ran #10 guage wire to the "S" terminal of Solenoid.
Got engine hot.
turned offf engine about 210 deg on mechanical guage
turned to start with key NADA..
Hooked new #10 to + side battery, same...
Oh Yeah I check ground to solenoid, checked for shorts, voltage to S terminal before testing.
Same
I suspect that my Heavy duty solenoid is not that heavy duty??
As I'd like to keep bone stock looks
What brand "heavy duty" solenoid have you used that worked????
Thanks
Fred
Got engine hot.
turned offf engine about 210 deg on mechanical guage
turned to start with key NADA..
Hooked new #10 to + side battery, same...
Oh Yeah I check ground to solenoid, checked for shorts, voltage to S terminal before testing.
Same
I suspect that my Heavy duty solenoid is not that heavy duty??
As I'd like to keep bone stock looks
What brand "heavy duty" solenoid have you used that worked????
Thanks
Fred
November 14th, 2016, 06:54 PM
#21
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
Okay, so just to confirm:
With the engine hot, you connected a heavy gauge wire from the solenoid S terminal to the battery (+) terminal, and the starter did not turn the engine over.
Did the starter turn at all?
Could you hear the solenoid sharply clicking?
Did the wire make a pretty big spark when you touched it to the terminal?
Does your starter have a brace in place (the brace acts as a secondary ground path, in case there is resistance between the steel motor case and the aluminum starter nose)?
The next step is to check the resistance of each leg of the circuit from the battery to the starter and beck to ground and the battery.
You'll get this figured out.
- Eric
With the engine hot, you connected a heavy gauge wire from the solenoid S terminal to the battery (+) terminal, and the starter did not turn the engine over.
Did the starter turn at all?
Could you hear the solenoid sharply clicking?
Did the wire make a pretty big spark when you touched it to the terminal?
Does your starter have a brace in place (the brace acts as a secondary ground path, in case there is resistance between the steel motor case and the aluminum starter nose)?
The next step is to check the resistance of each leg of the circuit from the battery to the starter and beck to ground and the battery.
You'll get this figured out.
- Eric
November 14th, 2016, 06:58 PM
#22
I use a stock starter with full length headers. I go through starters every 2 years . Good thing autozone has a sweet warranty lol. im on starter #4. I cant fit a finger between the starter and header tubes. Never an issues until year two rolls around it will start with a click here or there then bam nothing.
One time i actually found broken wires to be an issue. Everything is tight down there and the wires can become brittle and break in the casing as that was once an issues i had.
One time i actually found broken wires to be an issue. Everything is tight down there and the wires can become brittle and break in the casing as that was once an issues i had.
Last edited by coppercutlass; November 14th, 2016 at 07:02 PM.
November 15th, 2016, 07:35 PM
#24
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 513
Okay, so just to confirm:
With the engine hot, you connected a heavy gauge wire from the solenoid S terminal to the battery (+) terminal, and the starter did not turn the engine over.
Did the starter turn at all? NO
Could you hear the solenoid sharply clicking? No click, nothing... just like it is open. After about 45 min cool down, one tick from the key and wham right up and running...
Did the wire make a pretty big spark when you touched it to the terminal? Some
Does your starter have a brace in place (the brace acts as a secondary ground path, in case there is resistance between the steel motor case and the aluminum starter nose)? Yes a starter shield like in the pics in this thread, also have solenoid shield as welll
The next step is to check the resistance of each leg of the circuit from the battery to the starter and beck to ground and the battery. Will do.
You'll get this figured out.
- Eric
With the engine hot, you connected a heavy gauge wire from the solenoid S terminal to the battery (+) terminal, and the starter did not turn the engine over.
Did the starter turn at all? NO
Could you hear the solenoid sharply clicking? No click, nothing... just like it is open. After about 45 min cool down, one tick from the key and wham right up and running...
Did the wire make a pretty big spark when you touched it to the terminal? Some
Does your starter have a brace in place (the brace acts as a secondary ground path, in case there is resistance between the steel motor case and the aluminum starter nose)? Yes a starter shield like in the pics in this thread, also have solenoid shield as welll
The next step is to check the resistance of each leg of the circuit from the battery to the starter and beck to ground and the battery. Will do.
You'll get this figured out.
- Eric
November 15th, 2016, 08:40 PM
#26
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
You've just replaced the solenoid, and there is no reason to believe that you've now had two in a row that were defective, at least not without more evidence.
My recommendation would be to check resistance / voltage drop from the engine block to the battery (-) terminal.
That is your most likely source of trouble.
Remember, the actual problem that you are having is that the solenoid is not receiving enough current to create enough magnetism to pull in the plunger.
The problem is inadequate current, which could be caused by a low battery or by excessive resistance in one or more parts of the circuit.
That solenoid can pull a good 30 amps when it starts to saturate, and it should have made a decent spark when you touched the wire to the battery terminal.
- Eric
November 16th, 2016, 04:39 AM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,452
Thanks for all the great ideas. There's a shop here that rebuilds starters, and they mentioned putting a weaker spring in the solenoid so it won't hang up when hot. I also have a new neg. cable, and will replace the pos. cable with a custom made one from the battery shop. They made a real nice cable for the neg. side and only charged me $7.50.
Damn that's cheap. I'm tempted to ask you to make an extra of each and send them to me. I don't think I could replace my cables for anywhere near $20 around here.
November 16th, 2016, 05:54 AM
#28
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pittsburgh Pa.
Posts: 1,309
Here are a few could be's. First as Eric said do a volt drop test on both sides of the starter, + and - cables. Could be starter brushes worn to the bone. Could be a solenoid that has fewer windings than needed. Could be a solenoid return spring that is too long and too strong. Long spring is about 2 1/2 inches and short spring is about 2 inches. Back in the day, GM had a hot start problem and before they had a fix for the problem I determined the spring tension was too strong. I therefore used to cut the spring shorter by a little more than 1 turn. If anyone feels the need to do this be sure to put the cut end against the solenoid and the uncut side against the plunger flange. It is not necessary to do this now as GM eventualy made the shorter spring to overcome the problem. Over the years,I literally rebuilt thousands of starters with the cut spring before GM arrived with the shorter spring, and I never had a problem.
January 23rd, 2021, 05:24 PM
#31
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Northampton County, NC
Posts: 65
Do you have any pictures of your heat shields installed? I have Thornton exhaust manifolds and the driver's side almost touches the solenoid. I bought the EL5527T heat shield but the manifold hits it so hard I can't even bolt the starter on. I'm thinking of just getting a mini-starter but I already have several factory starters and I would rather use one of them. Thanks and take care.
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