frdebelo

Cutlass Supreme 330 engine, everything new in engine and wiring. When i drive the car for a while, then shut it off, you can turn the key and get nothing. When the engine cools off, then the starter will crank. I have a heat shield on the wires going to the starter but was looking and think that I may need a heat shield on the starter or solenoid to keep the heat off the solenoid or the starter. I don't remember having any insulation on the starter or solenoid when i pulled it apart, but may be mistaken. I am also running a 190 degree thermostat and wondering if it should be that high because feels like the engine is staying around 200 degrees.When i stop the car and cannot crank it due to the starter issue, i checked the temp with an electronic thermostat and after the motor is off for a few min, the temp will get up to 220 degrees at the heads. Did not know if this was nominal?

70W-32

Is it a new starter? If so, it probably has a cheap Chinese solenoid on it. Try to find a Delco solenoid. Also make sure you battery cables are of good quality(heavy copper gage), the ground wire must be attached to a clean spot on the block(no paint). Stock thermostat is probably 195. 200 degrees is not too hot, car should still crank and start. Make sure you have the correct gage wire going from your junction block(firewall) to the S terminal on the solonoid.

oldcutlass

Temperature wise, your description of items are normal. The first thing is to make sure the battery is fully charged (12.7v). Next take all the cable connections apart and clean thoroughly including the battery terminals and lugs. Make sure your starter connections are clean and tight also. If it still acts up then you need to start looking at the purple wire voltage to the solenoid when the key is turned to start.

frdebelo

Thank you for replying.
Original starter, rebuilt. Thinking the original solenoid also. Wires are original except for the cables to the battery that are new. Didn't know if this model car came with a heat resistant material to cover the starter and solenoid. I do have a heat resistant materials on the wires leading to the starter.

frdebelo

Thank you, I will check the wiring to the solenoid, that may be the issue. Battery and cables are new and clean.

droldsmorland

Use an HD 3/4 ton+ GM truck starter solenoid. I don't have the PN on hand. A good NAPA counter person will know what this is.
OEM 50+ year old cables should be replaced. Check Fusick, Year One, or Lectric Limited for correct cables. The cheap replacement bolt-on battery terminals are junk same for will-fit battery cables.
There are a few other smaller ground cables that are likely missing too....heads to firewall... braided style.

To reduce heat... wrap the exhaust head pipe from the ex manifold connection down past the starter. 24" heat wrap.

Heres the pipe shield I'm describing. I use one of these:

https://www.jegs.com/i/Thermo-Tec/893/11620/10002/-1

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-010451

frdebelo

Thank you for your reply, the 3/4 ton Solenoid is a great idea, also did not think about wrapping the exhaust. I know on this model the exhaust is extremely close so that could be a big issue, and the exhaust pipes are larger which may create more heat also. Appreciate the help from everyong.

VPFTech

next time it wont start. take a set of jumper cables and hook the negative from the battery to the engine. see if it changes. if you have a bad ground, or ground cable it should crank on the jumper set. if not then nothing will change and the free test cost you...a little time. positive cable could do the same. but its a lot harder to jumper wire test.

Remember electricity runs on smoke...if you let the smoke out it wont work.

70W-32

Original starter rebuilt? who rebuilt it, and what did they actually do?

Rallye469

Everything above is good.
I ALSO wrap EVERY starter with Aluminum foil tape. The kind they use on ducting.
I wrap starter AND selenoid. Really keeps the heat down.
-Pete

therobski

It's not that hot in Houston yet, ( I live up the road in Dallas). Some will not like this, but I think 200 is to warm when the ambient temp is what mid 80"s? If you run out of starter trouble shooting options I would check the timing on that 330, to far advanced timing will easily over heat the exhaust manifolds-especially headers causing heat soak on the starter. If I recall there's good clearance between the stock exhaust manifolds and a stock GM starter and wiring is properly routed.. Ask me how I know, I ruined the ceramic coating on my headers because my timing was too far advanced. Plus the hard start issues. My 2 cents...

oldcutlass

200* is not out of the question with a 190* thermostat that is probably in all actuality a 195*. .

therobski

Like I mentioned "I'll catch it for that comment" however if all else fails, I would still check the timing. In a month or 2 when Houston is in the 90's with 85% humidity and sitting a light let's hope the engine temp stays at 200...

frdebelo

thank you , t2" hat is good advice. The exhaust are custom and run about 2" from the starter, so that may be a big problem. I am going to put a heat shield around the exhaust also. Thank you for your help

frdebelo

Will also check the timing, but pretty sure it is correct. The think I do not understand, when you shut the engine off and then try to restart, there is not a click or a sound, like there is no battery connected, which made me think it was the solenoid.

frdebelo

Do not know who rebuilt the starter, I have it out of the car and going to O'Reilly to get another starter and solenoid, so that will not be the issue any longer, if I still have issues may have to get that HD 3/4 ton GM solenoid as droldsmorland suggested.

Fun71

Yes, that is exactly correct and is the typical "hot start" problem.

The solenoid is essentially an electromagnet and a switch. There is a coil of wire wrapped with many turns and a metal "rod" inside the coil. When you turn the key to Start, current flows through the wire connected to the terminal on the solenoid, through the coils of wire, which creates a magnetic field that moves the rod and closes an electrical contact (the click sound). The contact then allows current to flow from the battery cable to the starter motor windings and make the starter spin. When things get hot, the resistance increases, and at some point not enough current can flow through the solenoid windings to generate enough magnetic force to move the rod, so the electric contact is not made and you don't hear anything.

So you gotta make sure that enough current can flow when things are hot. Bad grounds, too small diameter wire, corrosion, etc can all add up to restrict the amount of current that can flow.

gs72

I worked as a ford mechanic for almost 23 years and one thing that ford always did was put a serrated lock washer between the block and ground cable so the cable bit into the block. I do this on all my cars and never have any ground problems.

stellar

Sounds like high resistance in the starter S circuit. Check connections and switches in the circuit. As mentioned earlier a high quality solenoid in conjunction with a shorter return spring will go a long way to help.Will it start when the solenoid S post is fed battery power when the no sound no start problem is happening?

frdebelo

Appreciate the info; the strange thing is that we drove the car many years without this problem so it must be the solenoid. I am changing it tomorrow along with the wiring and adding a heat resistant material to both the wires and the starter/solenoid. I have good grounds, and motor grounded to firewall with braided cable.

droldsmorland

An IC engine needs a certain amount of heat to operate efficiently. 200*f is in that efficient zone. 160-180*F is not(jacket temp). 230+ is not good. Now your gona score cylinder walls.
VE in an IC engine needs the right amount of heat for a good efficient burn. 200*F jacket temp is in the good zone.

69CSHC

frdebelo I never had heat soak issues with an Olds that had a fresh starter till I had headers. Funny thing was it was a 330 in my case as well.... You mention the exhaust layout may be lending itself to heat issues. Mine was originally single exhaust converted to dual exhaust with factory manifolds and no heat soak issues. It was a 1967 Cutlass Holiday Coupe with base 330 and stick. Once I went with long tube headers the hard starting followed immediately. Wrapping the starter did the trick. Its been about 20 years but I basically used something just like this. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-350118-1

With regards to your engine running on the hot side, my 330 ran that way as well. Seemingly more and more as the mods progressed. In my case I came to feel that the 4 blade fan, no shroud, small rad factory set up in modern brutal traffic didn't help....