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My 1989 Buick Electra wagon is going to "need" an engine transplant at some point. What makes it difficult is that the 307 is hooked up to the CCC (Computer Controlled Carb). While this is not the best system in the world, it does work and has kept the engine happily running. And therein lies the problem. If I was swapping to a low compression 350 or 403 (since its an 89, it has knock and EGR which the computer needs to function. Most all 455 intake manifolds don't allow for it.), then I could entertain using the CCC. However, if I am going to swap the engine and go through the cost and effort, it might as well be a better platform with the room for improvement. A 455 is the best option for power gains and, like all the others, will slip right into place with minimal modifications. The 200r4 transmission is new from CK Performance and is rated for 500 HP/TQ. From what I've read, getting the 455 to make 400 HP and 500 TQ at the flywheel is within reason.
The question, carb or EFI? Carb is simple and cheaper, and I know there are a few ways to activate the Lock-up torque converter and A/C clutch, but I feel like it'll be a downgrade from the CCC (say what you want, it did meter the fuel in some form and did cold starts). Never missed a beat. Worked in 10 degree cold weather with merely one press of the pedal for choke. If something did go wrong, the CCC is notorious for troubleshooting issues. A regular carb would be a step back...which is why I considered EFI...specifically Sequential EFI. A TBI wouldn't be any better than the CCC. Sequential is more involved, but again, if I'm going to put time and money into something it might as well be done to the best as it can. More efficient fuel metering and also the added benefit of the computer to control the Lockup Converter and A/C clutch. I know cutlassefi is the guy when it comes to this and from what I've seen on the market Thruster Accel is probably the best way to go (Affordable Fuel Injection was second place).
I have been doing this research for a few years since the only upgrade power wise would have to be a better (and bigger) engine. Since then, I've been working on suspension and basic maintenance. For a while I thought I'd end up with a 403, but they get harder to find compared to the 455 and 350s. At 4200 lbs, the torque would make a huge difference in drive-ability. This is a DD / cruiser. This is a wagon I want to tour the country with (again), occasionally hit a dirt road, maybe once do a drag strip, but essentially a cruiser and tire churner. It's one of the reasons I think EFI would benefit since I would drive it often.
I remembered when I started doing my research, the goal was an 87 octane, 25 MPG, 400HP cruiser, which'll do burnouts...I've gotten wiser since then. Haha.
The other big change will be the fuel system. In-take pump, etc. Just started learning about return and returnless systems. One thing I'll say about gathering the time and money for these projects, you spend a lot of time researching over and over to ensure you know what you are getting into.
Feedback would be appreciated. So are these aspirations too far out? This sound like a good foundation or plan? Would the costs way offset the gains, be it the fuel system, EFI, or performance numbers?
Just an inexperienced amateur asking the wise professionals.
Why are you concerned about the CCC system if you plan this swap? Lose the computer. The only things that matter will be the A/C compressor clutch control and the trans converter lockup. The A/C is easy with a simple jumper wire and a switch on the accelerator the way the pre-1985 cars did it. The stock 200-4R isn't going to survive behind a 455, so you're doing something with the trans anyway. Even if you go with a beefed 200-4R there are lots of lockup solutions that don't require CCC.
Even if you go with a beefed 200-4R there are lots of lockup solutions that don't require CCC.
Correct Joe but I used a couple of them before I went EFI and they weren't real great. The better aftermarket EFI systems allow you even more control than the oem stuff did.
The biggest cost is the electronics. Yes the Thruster would be a good choice, but don't expect earth shattering economy. You'll still have crappy heads and a not real efficient rotating assembly.
I did EFI for mainly one reason. I installed Catalytic converters on my car which need a lean mixture to work efficiently. I can now run that lean mixture without stumbling, hesitation or any other drivability issues. That results in no "old car" fuel smell, especially with the top down. Plus the spark maps allow you to add spark when cold and gradually remove it as it heats up so you have the best most efficient spark curve available hot or cold.
I'll help you if you really want to do it. But again it ain't going to make it pass the gas pump like the newer stuff.
I hold no delusions about economy. A consistent 20 MPG on the highway (if I behaved) would be the best I would hope for. I'll give the 26 year old 307 that achievement, it still manages that economy while straining to pull 2 tons of car. The rear is a peg leg 2.93 and the most I'd go is a 3.23 when I add posi. In regards to the CCC, it will be getting rid of, but because it worked so well, going to a standard quadrajet might make it less driveable compared to EFI for everyday use.
Again, this is all in theory as I sort out details. One of the best things about building the budget, until that happens the ideas are endless.
The new EFI systems should be able to run the CCC distributor. My Holley Terminator EFI will. No issues with the Holley setup. Getting 18 MPG in my slightly better than stock 455 with a 200R4 and 273 gears
I literally found this on Wednesday while browsing car-part.com, and then early Saturday morning drove to Philly and picked it up.
It's a 1975 Oldsmobile 455 with supposedly 55,000 miles. Its the smog era J head with EGR and probably an 8:1 comp ratio. In that spec, I could theoretically swap it in right now and run it on the CCC system. The smarter move, build it up on the stand and ditch the system to allow a bigger powerhouse.
Regardless of which I do, I am just really excited to have nabbed this for only $500. Funny enough, that's the same price I paid for Firefly back in 2011.
Been a while since I've posted. Progress might be slow, but since this is the first time I've done anything remotely close to this, I'm taking baby steps in everything I do.
I am very jealous of you. So far, the closest 455 I've found is in Georgia, not that I've been looking that hard.
Personally, messing with a carb is one of the joys of old cars. However, if you do drive this frequently in the winter (poor car), I think EFI is the only way to go.
That being said, my grandpa drove a '29 Ford with 6 volt and manual choke and he still managed to start it every day in -20F Iowa winter. So! It can be done.
I am very jealous of you. So far, the closest 455 I've found is in Georgia, not that I've been looking that hard.
Personally, messing with a carb is one of the joys of old cars. However, if you do drive this frequently in the winter (poor car), I think EFI is the only way to go.
Knowing how hard I was trying to find a 403, when I saw the 455 I just jumped on it. Older iron is hard to find in the city areas, especially if it isn't chevy. They do pop up now and again.
I'll drive her in the winter, but I avoid it when there is snow, ice, or salt on the ground. Don't need to make things even harder for myself. I'll say this, if the car originally had a regular carb and not the Computer Controlled Carb, I'd be more inclined keep it that way.
Time for an update. Used the Thanksgiving break to remove the carb and the cast iron exhaust manifolds. Also removed the fuel pump and power steering pump. One of my great learning experiences is discovering how heavy everything is. If anything, I get to reduce as much weight as possible before the next time I move the engine. It will be lighter, comparatively. I'm plastic bagging everything I take off and, obviously, taking pics along the way.
Currently, the plan is to strip as much of the bits that I don't need. It is a learning experience for me since it's my first time tearing one down; I've learned how heavy a cast iron manifold is.
Just going to take it one step at a time. And it is funny how many more EFI kits have come out in just three years.
Got the rockers and heads off. The dish in these pistons are so deep its incredible; you could make mini deep dish pizzas in these. The cylinder walls look okay.
Gave the cylinder walls a quick look. They actually look pretty polished and clean with no scorching. This was supposedly a 55,000 mile motor and, despite the lack of maintenance, I think that claim is true. Driven short and hot. I'm hoping I can get away with a hone. It limits my piston choices but if I don't need to bore then I won't. In my browsing through summit, D.S.S. GSX-Series Forged Pistons 6000X-4125 or D.S.S. GSX-Series Forged Pistons 6003X-4125 might be good candidates if alls go well.
What makes the Wiseco a superior piston choice? I know many piston brands are compared on many threads though boring is usually involved. Would it be the best choice as a standard piston?
I need to do more homework and have a set plan in place (good advice from cutlassefi), but they look good.
It is a quality, forged aluminum piston that will give you compression in the 9.5-10:1 range depending on your set up. There just aren't that many choices for the Olds engines compared to Chevy. Just pick the components that help you reach the goal of your build.
More work on the engine. Been moving into my first place so it has been on hold for a bit; spending money on furniture and not heads. Lol.
But now that I'm pretty much in, and my stepdad wants the garage back, I have new vigor to get the engine further stripped. While the disassembly is fun, I'm forgoing rebuilding myself for the sake of time, complexity, and minority (if I ruin a sbc 350 I can find another same day, not so much the 455).
Water pump looks like it was filled with water and not coolant, and got the oil pan off. Crazy that this hasn't been opened in 44 years. Hoping to take an impact wrench to the crankshaft pulley when it's not nighttime, and then remove the connecting rod bolts to get the pistons out. Lighter the better before I take it to the builder.
Just curious, who did you pick for your builder? Are they going to do the EFI for you as well? And what did you pick on that front?
EFI is a bit out of budget, so I'm going to wait until the engine is in the car and probably keep it carbureted for a year or two. I can run it as is without touching the fuel lines.
When budget is back do the conversion, I'm probably going to go with Holley's HP Universal Retro 4BB MPFI system with a Dual Sync distributor.
I plan on using Tester Motorsports. Had a talk with Paul a month ago and seemed to know his oldsmobiles as well as other brands. He is only an hour+ drive so I can deliver it personally and check the shop; he posts consistently on his FB page.
Ok. Let me know when you’re ready for the Holley system, might be able to help you there as well as getting your intake bunged.
Best of luck in your project.
Ok. Let me know when you’re ready for the Holley system, might be able to help you there as well as getting your intake bunged.
Best of luck in your project.
Thanks, Mark.
Its bittersweet, but I had to choose between what I want and what the budget allowed, and it only allowed the engine. I'll say this, I have even more respect for what you and other engine builders do. This is hard just to disassemble something that's been together for so long. Let alone rebuilding it measured and balanced with tight clearances.
I finally got the crankshaft pulley off and the connecting rod bolts. But the connecting rods wont come apart from the cap. Like me, they are just stubborn and no amount of rubber mallet is working.
EFI is a bit out of budget, so I'm going to wait until the engine is in the car and probably keep it carbureted for a year or two. I can run it as is without touching the fuel lines.
When budget is back do the conversion, I'm probably going to go with Holley's HP Universal Retro 4BB MPFI system with a Dual Sync distributor.
I plan on using Tester Motorsports. Had a talk with Paul a month ago and seemed to know his oldsmobiles as well as other brands. He is only an hour+ drive so I can deliver it personally and check the shop; he posts consistently on his FB page.
Paul ran a fast Nascar Olds SB in his Cutlass, ran low 9's, till it let go badly. He ran it for years but went with a 632 BBC a few years back. Pretty sure he can build a fairly low rpm 455.
You get a properly-tuned Q-Jet on that engine, with a choke that's adjusted right; and a distributor with the centrifugal and vacuum advance adjusted to the application...you'll never "upgrade" to fuel injection.
YOUR Q-Jet seems to be missing the hot-air tubes and plate for the exhaust crossover in the intake manifold. And some of the '75 Q-Jets have an aneroid bellows up front that's caused some heartache. Others have the black phenolic "shot glass", and they're fine.
Inspect the weights and pivot pins of the HEI distributor, if you're going to use it. They're known for wear. Replace the pickup coil. If the ignition coil and ignition module are original, new, QUALITY replacements are advised. The oldest designs of HEI have some RPM issues that were corrected in later production.
Last edited by Schurkey; January 14th, 2020 at 06:35 PM.
You get a properly-tuned Q-Jet on that engine, with a choke that's adjusted right; and a distributor with the centrifugal and vacuum advance adjusted to the application...you'll never "upgrade" to fuel injection.
Just curious, then what do you do when the weather changes?
I’ve had “reworked” Qjets on the dyno that behaved differently with just a 1# change in fuel pressure. I’ll bet weather changes affect them even more so.
As someone who has run Qjet's in +40 and -40, they are by far the best factory carb ever made. GM's started and ran the best by far in every weather condition, highly tuneable, even down to the choke and APT. I actually even their hot air choke. Dodge had hokey chokes and questionable Carter and Holley carbs. Our Dodge's would start but hard all sorts of issues. Ford's were pigs on fuel, some designs were unfixable and tended to have sticky needles and seats, would flood out. No comparing a modern sequential multi point, direct and port injection systems, so far above a carb.
April 14th, 2015, 12:31 PM
