MDchanic

I would appear to have missed something here...

Serves me right for going to work .

- Eric

cutlassefi

Winter haven, about an hour from Orlando. Go to youtube and enter Mark Remmel, you'll see my car there in the Accel video.
Haven't raced in years, but been building engines since the early 80's.

Eric- you haven't missed anything, trust me.

citcapp

Come on guys this is Panos thread and I appreciate him sharing this experience with us so we can all learn and maybe not have a similar problem with our builds. I myself have just finished my 455 and brought it home two days ago. I will post pictures and a build sheet soon. It is also a high compression engine with a aggressive cam so I am interested in this thread and want to follow it to it's conclusion

Remember sometimes things just happen even in the best of circumstances and it looks to me like Panos and Mark are working things out so lets support them and not bicker

SBORule

Will do.
That explains why I haven't heard of you.

SBORule

I wasn't talking about CutlassEFI editiing his post, I was talking about 380racer editting his post.

Don't pay attention to 380racer, he doesn't build his stuff, never has, so his technical advice is useless. As you can see, he has done nothing to help figure out what caused this guys engine to spin a rod bearing.

I happened to notice something in the picture below because this is the first time I actually looked at the pictures in this topic.

Is that a hole in the left cylinder in this picture? Water in a cylinder will wipe out a bearing in a heart beat.

panos

No hole there,thats some gasket pieces from the oilpan that fel during disassembly.

gregvm

Is it just me, or does that CAM bearing in this pic look like ITS wiped out as well?
And after reviewing the thread posts, was this crank NOT ground undersize at the onset of this build? Was it straight, indexed, runout checked? I'm still having a hard time believing this is a result of detonation....but I'm open minded

Bill in NC

That cam bearing looks normal to me.

panos

The first 2 cam bearings are also wiped out.

panos

Actually only the last cam bearing looks ok to me

nonhog

No expert, just questions, thinking out loud (typing outloud)
Would it not take just one bearing mishap to effect some or all the others?

Just from reading CutlassEFI's post in the past I dought he would toss together an engine w/o checking everything 1st. Seems like a very detailed guy.

66ninetyeightls

With the ammount of bearing damage in this engine including the cam bearings it has to be an oil starvation issue. There is no way detonation would cause damage to the rod bearings, main bearings AND cam bearings.

gregvm

Well after seeing these pictures of the CAM bearings, I think it should be fairly clear that this is NOT a detonation issue. Look at pic #4....
Why is the oil hole on the cam bearing not draining? There's a pool just sitting there over the oil hole. All the cam bearings look like not even SQUARE in the block from the pictures(look at the wear marks on the babbit). Does anybody else notice what looks like cracks around the cylinders radiating from the cam area on pictures 3 and 4? Or is that casting flash?

.02

Greg

gregvm

After further review(not casting any blame here by the way)....


Look at the lifter bores in the pics(scored).....AND the camshaft thrust surface in the timing chain area....... that should have been cleaned up (there's a FLANGE on it)

gregvm

Why is there a freeze plug on the left rear oil galley near the distributor? Thats supposed to be a NPT plug with a .040 hole in it to lubricate the dist. gear.
It's plainly visible on pic #5 ......5/16 steel plug, even with permatex on it.

MX442

This has been bugging me a lot lately. Over the next year I will be building my #'s matching W-30 engine. I'd hate to have it only last a few thousand miles. Why is it that several engine builds here have failed multiple times over the last few years, when the factory built engines lasted many thousands of miles?

It seems that bearings and cam lobes are the biggest cause. I know cam lobes are failing due to lack of ZDDP in modern oils. Has anyone linked modern motor oil to the cause of bearing failure? Are new bearings built of lesser quality than factory originals? How many guys here have rebuilt and had a bearing failure? Lots! I don't follow any other forums, but do Chevy's, Fords, Buicks, Pontiacs, etc, have this many failures as well, or is this limited to just Olds engines?

Back in the days, many backyard gear heads have likely advanced their timing to the point of detonation, then backed it off without causing catastrophic results. As long as they didn't continue to drive it that way. Even with lower octane gas; less compression and timing shouldn't cause a problem.

The factory didn't build them perfect or balanced, ie blueprinted; or with roller cams and oil mods. Yet a rebuild with better clearances, balanced, oil mods, roller cam and rockers, and 10:1 compression doesn't make it more than 3000 miles?

Doesn't make sense to me. Sorry to ramble on...

MX442

Just a quick tally, there are at least 5 members in this thread with failed rebuilds...

gregvm

MX442,

The devil is in the details.....

I've built 8 455's over the last 30 years, including one that's in my jet boat since 1983 with not ONE bearing failure, except for one that blew a head gasket in a car, got coolant into oil(an absolute no no)...well you get the rest....rod went thru the block/pan.

I turn the boat engine 5500+ sustained for miles......never a problem after 28 years on SAME bearings, and yes it DOES detonate occasionally becuase of the gasoline...Back of the timing 2 or so degrees...A-ok. Put some octane booster in... back to same 34 all in.
I just looked at the bearings this spring cause I had a rear main seal leak(rope). Couldn't tell the diff between new and those bearings. Left them as is.

MX442

Greg, this is exactly the point I'm trying to make. 28 years, perfect bearings, 5500 rpms, occasional detonation, AND it is still running!

What changed in the last 5 years or so that is causing bearing failure? Maybe there has always been a bearing failure problem, but without mass-media (ie: internet forums), maybe we just never hear of the problems over the years. I don't know.

Are the good "old timer" rebuilders dying off? Are the bearings manufactures making a poorer product? Is modern oil without ZDDP destroying our bearings? (not likely if your 28 year old bearings still work) Lower octane fuel? (back off timing and/or compression).

Sorry to hi-jack panos' thread. Maybe someone should create a new thread and poll of rebuild failures over the last 5 years; including what failed (bearings, cam lobe, block failure, etc), and suspected cause. Make it a sticky to keep it at the top of the forum so people report their failures. Then, maybe we can find a common cause?

GreekDog

8 rebuilds?

I'll call you in two years. I should be do for a rebuild then

gregvm

Greek dog.....

Yeah, In 6 different cars& 1 boat......1 failure

gearheads78

Not that it helps but I dabble in all kinds of cars and the only ones I see repeated engine failures like this are Oldsmobiles. All makes are have trouble eating flat tappet cams but I don't see the bearing failures that seem to repeat over and over with Olds motors.

66ninetyeightls

So your saying 17% of your engine builds FAIL?????

gregvm

Why is the oil hole on the cam bearing not draining?

That's supposed to be funny.....

gregvm

I'm TRYING to keep up with the unemployment numbers......

And yes I had ONE fail my fault, head gasket blew......

gregvm

So your saying 17% of your engine builds FAIL?????


No....it's only 12.5%.......(1/8)

Greg

cutlassefi

I'll take a stab at this;
1) there is a freeze plug behind the oil galley plug with the .040 hole in it. And you've done how many Olds builds? You didn't know that? And it's much larger than 5/16, again you didn't notice that in your numerous Olds builds? hmmm......
2) I see the oil puddle at about the same angle as the lifter bore, which would tell me that the block is laying somewhat on it's side, hence the puddle, it's not over the oil hole.

Please take your boat motor and raise the compression to almost 11.0:1 then dial in 35-36 degrees advance and run 93 octane in it. Then tell us what happens after the bearing(s) go bad and put trash all thru the motor. Get back to us on that, I'm all ears.

gregvm

Cutlassefi first off.... I don't like condescending remarks.....I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't laying blame on anyone....just looking for solutions(for everyone).(I said the oil hole thing was a joke)

You are right, there is a plug(press in) on the DRIVERS side over the NPT plug.....I was remembering the allen wrench to tighten it, so I apologize for that one.

That being said.....I'm running 10.25 cast slugs on that BOAT that you seem to cast(no pun intended) aside as a RELIABLE reference. AT 34 total advance with 93 crap gas you get here, I'll run all day,no bearing damage.

I'm looking for solutions to panos problem, not problems.....

ah64pilot

DAYAMN!!! This is better than The Young and The Restless...this should lighten the mood:

A few days after Christmas, a mother was working in the kitchen listening to her young son playing with his new electric train in the living room. She heard the train stop and her son said, "All of you sons of bitches who want off, get the hell off now, cause this is the last stop! And all of you sons of bitches who are getting on, get your asses in the train, cause we're going down the tracks."

The mother went nuts and told her son, "We don't use that kind of language in this house. Now I want you to go to your room and you are to stay there for TWO HOURS. When you come out, you may play with your train, but I want you to use nice language."

Two hours later, the son comes out of the bedroom and resumes playing with his train. Soon the train stopped and the mother heard her son say, "All passengers who are disembarking from the train, please remember to take all of your belongings with you. We thank you for riding with us today and hope your trip was a pleasant one. We hope you will ride with us again soon." She hears the little boy continue, "For those of you just boarding, we ask you to stow all of your hand luggage under your seat. Remember, there is no smoking on the train. We hope you will have a pleasant and relaxing journey with us today."

As the mother began to smile, the child added, "For those of you who are pissed off about the TWO HOUR delay, please see the bitch in the kitchen."

cutlassefi

And we were all supposed to know this how? Apology accepted, but your 10.25:1 has been measured?

The reason I ask is because, and to keep the theme here of POTENTIAL damage to an engine via detonation, the only small dish cast piston offered for a 455 is made by Sealed Power/Federal Mogul. It has a 13cc dish. With a 0 deck, .040 compressed head gasket and 80cc combustion chambers (they typically run about 82cc) you would have just 10.1:1. But keep in mind that piston only has a compression distance of 1.725 meaning you would have had to cut the block some .040 to get that 0 deck. If you don't cut the block you could have as low as 9.3:1 with that "10.25:1" piston.
I ran into this 2 weeks ago. A guy bought a cast piston for a 396 Chevy. He told the machine shop he wanted 9-9.5:1. After taking everything into consideration his compression is 7.88:1, a far cry from his 9-9.5:1 request and what was supposed to be a 9.0:1+ piston.

Just an FYI for all.

SBORule

I said hole in the cylinder, not a hole in the block.

I have seen a hole in cylinders walls just like that in Oldsmobile 455 before with only a .030" over bore, some blocks have thin area's in that location of the cylinder walls and will pop out a hole that looks just like the big spot in that left cylinder picture.

As far as not looking at the pictures, I wasn't logged in when I was reading through this topic before and all I saw was image links and how many times they were viewed, I clicked on the links but nothing happened, I'm use to using phpBB, this Vbulletin board is new to me.

So now I know, you must be logged in to view pictures that are hosted by ClassicOldsmobile that have photo links by the person who uploaded them and you won't see pictures of the same pictures that others have used image tags to display the same pictures, unless you are logged in.

Here's a tip for anyone reading topics that aren't logged in, you won't see pictures unless they are hosted off site with image shack or that other free picture hosting site.

For a rod bearing to end up on top of another, kind of re-enforces my thought that the big end of the rod wasn't round.

Good Luck panos.

gregvm

Now here's DETONATION: And amazingly, no rod or main bearing damage at all......

cutlassefi

Did I say somewhere that every case of detonation results in bearing damage? I don't think so, so what's your point? My bet is that was a blower piston, held boost but ran lean, 2 different conditions.

Any explanation on your 10.25:1 cast pistoned 455? Its not really 10.25:1 is it.

I want to verify what caused this as much as anyone, but a few questions need to be answered if the oil starvation theory is to be considered;

Why only did #6 rod spin?
if it was oil starvation on that journal only why didn't the other one spin?
Why did it take 500 miles to show up? Ever run a new motor with marginal oiling and not have it show up real quick?
Has blockage been verified anywhere in the crank, block etc.?

This 455 had a 7qt Moroso pan on it. Oil drainbacks were opened up before assembly. We only ran 6 qts in it on the dyno for well over 2 hours and multiple pulls. Why didn't the bearings show signs of starvation then? All they showed was detonation, all bearings, equally the same, no one worse than any other. Do you think I'd ship a motor with signs of starvation? I hope not.

Or maybe;
that rod is weaker making it flex more, thereby pinching the bearing and ultimately making it spin, but normally when you have a sprung rod when you remove the cap then try to re-install it they are hard to fit, this one didn't.
or maybe it detonated, beating on the bearing until it lost it's crush then spun. Then trash continues to flow throughout the motor.

I believe I can speak for both Panos and myself, if anyone has valid answers to those starvation questions we're all ears.

ROBZ442

Cutlassefi I think the way you are handling this great and that this thread has taken a wrong turn. I for one would like to see this thread get back to the subject of figuring out what happened and not whose fault it is.
I do think it's wrong that an Olds motor can be assembled in the factory and will run forever but as soon as you try to go a little faster it fails so easily. I am in the same situation with my 66 400. The motor was rebuilt by a very reputable Oldsmobile performance shop with complete machining and balancing form harmonic balancer to flywheel and only lasted 3000 miles. I returned the motor and was there for the disassembly and was told that detonation is what killed the motor. In my case the wrist pins started to sieze in the pistons that led to the spun bearing. The pictures below are of the damage.

DSCF7512.jpg

The damage to the bearings was not universal some were worse than others. My problem occured at the end of the run at the dragstrip. I drove it back down the return road to the pits and loaded it on the trailer, that was it. I'm just a gearhead trying to learn more everyday but as far as bearing damage goes doesn't the oiling system carry any contaminants it picks up throughout the motor until it hits the filter. If this is the case then the longer you run a damaged motor the worse the bearings will look regardless of the initial failure.
My second motor faired even worse. Complete rebuild with hot tank, machine work and rebalancing and it lasted less than 500 miles. I have yet to tear it apart but according to what I am getting out of this thread it may detonation again. So as I mentioned earlier I would love to see this get back on track and see some positive responses and possibly get the answers many of use need.

Panos I feel your frustration and hopefully you can afford to get this resolved and spend many many miles enjoying your car once it's back together. Thats whats keeping me going as I go through this for the third time myself. It's not cheap and I'm not sure where the money will come from but it will happen.

Good luck
Rob

Red71

could it be that #6 failed/ spun, after detonation. Then all the crap
from that bearing and crank material from #6 start snow balling the rest of the
bearings?

panos

That is actually what i believe happend and i think Mark does too.

panos

To all of you people who showed interest at my thread and wanting to help,i want to say a BIG thank u guys,however i really dont want this to become an "internet chicken fight" noone is gonna benefit from that.All of us have different opinions and different experience wich i understand and fully respect.Right now if im really honest,im more concerned of putting it back together and drive it as what or why it happend.If i wanted to wrench more than drive it i would buy something Italian and not American

Now almost everything is sorted out exept the shipping of the crank,please if anyone can help me out with that you can pm me. The best shipping price so far was 325us for a crank that costs 450us i think that is quite much,i really want to keep the olds motor but this prices just killing me and all the fun.

2blu442

OK guys, I deleted the last two posts that were intended for something other than helping Panos. I WILL delete any other posts that focus on anything but helping Panos with his engine. If you must argue do it through PM's NOT on this thread. John

Oldwolf

Panos
Actually this doesn´t match with what you informed us in the beginning of this tread. "Already changed oil 3 times cutting open every oilfilter and all of them were clean."
If that´s the facts, the theory with grit in the oil doesn´t make sence.

Stanley

ah64pilot

Panos, do you already have a crank? Or are you considering buying one? Let me know...