Old Olds Fan

I'm in the thought process of building a 'B'400, a correct engine for my 65 442. Does anyone have, or know of a shop that has, a CNC program that will skinny down the stock forged rods found in the 65-67 BBO. Also I'll be looking for new lighter pistons, again any suggestions? Any additional input re. using the stock rods?

Run to Rund

Get the strong aftermarket rods Rocket Racing sells; they are also a little lighter than stock, iirc.

cutlassefi

X2. Plus K1 will have a 7.00" H-beam rod out before the end of the year as well.

Old Olds Fan

Thanks for the quick reply, I want to build a 'internally modernized' engine because this is a 'correct engine I want to use the stock carb.,intake,heads, etc. keeping it stock looking. Because of the gas octane ratings, I'll drop compression to 9:5-1,( new pistons , rods etc.) I see it as a 6000 rpm red line motor, I would like it to be 'strong for the day' but not jeopardize the stock running gear. My plan is to lighten the reciprocating weight, moving as close as I can to an internally balanced engine, use 0 or close to 0 balance damper and a lightened (25-28#) flywheel. I'll do the heads with seats, valves, and port work, get help with the cam (profile) and valve train, do what can be done with the intake and exhaust flow. I could sure use input on all the factors I've mentioned and on the overall plan. pistons? cam, roller, non roller? heads, valve size, rockers ? Thanks again!

copper128

I don't think stock Olds BB rods are strong enough to begin with. I certainly wouldn't want to "skinny them down" any.

Old Olds Fan

P.S. the Rocket Racing site is great I'll be spending some money with them!! does any one have an opinion regarding "Olds Performance Products" they've a lot of parts that are manufactured by themselves??? what are some other Olds. specific parts suppliers?

copper128

Oh boy. Good thing you didn't ask this question on RealOldsPower

Andy Miller owns/runs OPP. In my opinion, he's very knowledgeable about Olds hi-performance engine building. The catalog is a little "boastful". The products claimed to be "manufactured by OPP" really aren't. They may be built to spec for OPP by another supplier, or they might not be available elsewhere.
Andy tends to rub some folks the wrong way, but others have had good dealings with him.

copper128

PS: my personal recommendation would be to call Bill Trovato at BTR Performance. He's had great success with Olds engines and won't steer you wrong.

Bernhard

X2 BTR. I would call Bill and would order his book on how to build a high performance Oldsmobile engine before I bought parts or started a build. Read the book cover to cover then call him back to talk to him about your build plans.
He also has a form high performance olds and a youtube video on him building a dx small block olds lots of good advice for building any performance Olds.
He also raced a olds power cars from bracket, stock eliminator to 7 second street car class racing.
Good luck with your build

cutlassefi

With all due respect, Bill is a very accomplished engine builder but his book was a waste of time and money in my opinion. It's a great source of part numbers but as far as engine building "secrets" there aren't any. I read it cover to cover. And I built an engine to his bearing specs and had oil pressure problems throughout.
Some good info has already been given. A good aftermarket 7.00" rod, the right pistons and a well thought out combo will do you well.
As far as OPP goes, he has some good stuff available, but shop around and you'll find out he's real expensive.

Best of luck. Happy to help if you need it. Thanks.

380 Racer

I could give many examples of OPP screwing customers (friends of mine). I wouldn't buy a spark plug from him. BTR is decent but is not God. I will stop at this point for right now.

Run to Rund

I too have never dared run as loose a bearing clearance as BTR recommends! Before the high volume Melling pump was available, bearing clearances had to be close to stock and carefully met, and even now I don't go for a lot more clearance.

Old Olds Fan

What manufacturer would you look to for "the right pistons"? I hear lots of static about "the crap out there" the fact that there are major differences in metallurgy, quality of machining, weight, country of origin, etc. I know there are any number of suppliers that will build what you ask for, for a price, but who would you recommend? The discussion of crank clearances interest me, do you feel that the specs. need to change as expected RPM rises, or power increases, changes in balance, if so how?

Bernhard

I found the book very informative. I guess it will depend on one's base knowledge how much of a help the book will be. He covers a lot of Olds engine building myths and just does not tell you to build it a certain way. Bill explains why you need to make certain mods or use a certain brand of parts or why he recomends his clearances.

Bernhard

The engine you built with BTR bearing clearance spec's were you also running his rod side clearance?
What happened to this engine?
I have not read of anyone having trouble with one of his builds, if you have info on one could you please share?

380 Racer

.001" clearance per 1" diameter plus another .0005" if racing. .018 side clearance, always worked well for me. Decent oil pressure and no excessive wear.

cutlassefi

I actually had tighter side clearences than he recommended. I had .004+ on the mains and almost the same on the rods. The best pressure we had was 50 with 20w-50 and Lucas oil stabilizer. And the motor wasn't any prince in the power dept either.

Bernhard

Thanks for the reply's.

Has the engine had any failures running the large bearing clearance with 50psi oil pressure?

cutlassefi

At this time not that I know of, haven't talked to the owner in a while.

But you shouldn't have to use 20W50 plus an additive to get reasonable oil pressure. And it was 50psi at 5500rpm. hot at idle it's 20, maybe.

380 Racer

My 425 has 70-75 @ 7000 and 32-34 @ hot idle in gear. We use 10-30 Brad Penn. Works for me .

chadman

I am also a non believer in the giant clearance theory. Old Olds Fan, have you considered boring and stroking the "B" block engine? You could still maintain a stock external appearance. My "B" block engine is 461. Just a thought.

Bernhard

Thanks for the reply cutlassefi

If I had a big dollar max effort race engine like Nick, I would feel a lot better if I had oil pressure numbers like Nick has 32-34 idle and 70-75 at 7000 rpm. That's right on the 10 psi per 1000rpm that I have read about many times as being what you need.

What was the oil pressure with a lighter weight oil?

In Bills book he said his engines will be at 40psi at higher engine rpm, this being the norm with a 10 30 weight oil . As far as I know he has a good track record with his builds.
It comes down to trust either you trust in him as a engine builder or you don`t.
I have not built my engine yet and still some time away from starting it.
We have spun rod bearings in the past with the big block Olds engine using factory clearances on the high side.
For me it comes down to track record so far I have not heard of a engine failure do to his clearances, I would like to know if there is any out there because I plan on using them when I get that far with my build.

I know that there are guys also running good with tighter clearances than Bill.
So like my auto body mentor Lou told me many times there is more than one way to skin a cat. He showed me collision repairs technic that I never found in any book.
I think it comes down to trust.

cutlassefi

15 or so at idle, 42 or so max when at operating temp.
We fired it on 10W-40.

Bernhard

So its right on Bill's spec 42 at RPM. It would be interesting to follow this build to see if it ever has any problems down the road. Is it a street car or a street strip car?

Cutlassefi you said that the engine wasn't a prince on power either
And the motor wasn't any prince in the power dept either

How does the bearing clearance effect HP/TQ or lack of HP/TQ effect oil pressure?

cutlassefi

It made 451 and 508 torque with edelbrocks, a Torker, 870 Holley and 1 7/8 hooker supercomps.
I made 413/497 on a 455 with less cam, compression, cheap headers and bone stock Ga heads.
The more clearance you have the more oil you're slinging up into the cylinder walls unnecessarily. I'm not saying that's the reason for the less than stellar numbers but I'll bet it didn't help. Plus my dyno guy built the same SBC a few years ago with tight clearances then bigger ones and lost a few Hp.
Hp/tq doesn't effect oil pressure but I've always built them for more oil pressure and never had any issues.
Some guys on here and elsewhere have done it Bills way and gone back to their original specs. Bill seems to be the only one doing it that way. Other guys make good power too.

chadman

X2 they just don't get the same exposure because they don't put themselves in the spotlight by doing the EMC or writing books.

70Post

As far as pistons...does KB make a good forged for the 400 or 425. I know their 455 pistons seem to be a better alternative to the old heavier TRW forged pistons (and has a narrower ring package).

Maybe Cutlassfi has some ideas here.

Bernhard

Bill just had some custom CP bullet pistons made for the large bore short stroke early 400. I thought it was a good deal pistons,pins and rings. $700 . They were made so that you could use the eagle rods. He posted it on his web site.

chadman

I'm personaly not a fan of that set up. Those pistons are made for a 6.735" rod instead of the stock 7" length. That gives you even more compression height which isn't desireable.

cutlassefi

Exactly, I'm going the other way on these next two 455 builds. Instead of the standard 6.735 Eagle rod and IC886 (1.75cd) piston, I'm using a Scat 7.00" rod and IC889 (1.490cd) piston. We'll see what happens!!!

Old Olds Fan

I'm trying to learn, cultassefi, that means you'll be .005 taller? If I used that set up in a 425 with the stock crank would I be able to bring the compression in at 9.5:1 by skinning the piston top? opening up the chamber, thicker head gasket? Am I way off base?

Bernhard

http://highperformanceolds.com/phpbb...=4315&start=10

Old Olds Fan
You can read about the pistons and why he went with the shorter rod.

coldwar

This is a great idea, I have wondered for years why more guys don't build with longer rods, then slowing piston speed with longer TDC/BDC dwell time, and allowing longer cam timing with none of the downsides to longer cam events. Jon Kaase demonstrated during the mountain motor pro stock years the longer a rod he could get in to 600" engines he prepared, the torque curve then became more broad allowing the engine to be tailored to such a torque curve. He had pistons pins in the ring lands on some of them. I'd want to see long rods, longer cam timing, and some sort of ram induction and well tuned exhaust to more fully charge the cylinders on the now longer intake event at given RPM. By all means, 7.00 rods!