442 Guatemala

Hello I own a 1966 442 with the 400 engine. now is my 3rd time rebuilding that engine in 2 years, everitime I ruin the engine because of oil presure problems.

Now i bought a complete rotating assembly kit stroke 425 from OldsPerformanceProducts (Andy Miller) and he want me to set my clearances as follows:

0.0035 on Main bearing clearances from 1-4 and torque with 100 ft
0.0042 on Main bearing clearances on # 5 and torque with 100 ft
0.0030 on rod bearing clearances and torque with 68 ft

I told him they are so loose and Im going to loose oil pressure, he told me that never see an Olds engine damage because loose clearances.

so I called Lin on Mondello to ask how they set they clearances, and he told me the following>

0.0030 on Main bearing clearances from 1-4 I forgot to ask torque
0.0035 on Main bearing clearances on # 5
0.0025 on rod bearing clearances

Also I called Dick Miller from DickMillerRacing and he told me

0.0030 on Main bearing clearances from 1-4
0.004-3 on Main bearing clearances # 5
0.0030 on rod bearing clearances

I notice that Olds uses a really loose clearances compare to chevy.So now im really confused, I dont know what to do, should I set the clearances like Andy Miller told me, Dick Miller or like Mondello told me?

does anyone set clearances that loose? what happen with the oil pressure? what is normal oil pressure range for an Olds big block engine? what oil do you use?

I appreciate any suggestions and help please, I dont want to ruin my engine again.

I forgot> I bought my pistons 4.040, now I need to use some (3) sleeves to make them fit properly there is any problem using sleeves on those engines? will my car overheat?

thanks

SBORule

Hate to tell ya but your clearances have already been set for you when Andy Miller did the machine work on your 425 crank.

So what you should do is check the clearances with plasic gauge during a mock up assembly, if everything checks out then you do a final assembly of your engine.

You should do a Google search and type in these words, YouTube Olds S71 BTR Performance and download all 10 videos and watch them about 10 times, I think this will help you alot.

SBORule

Nothing wrong with using sleeves, it shouldn't cause any negitive effects unless a the machine shop you are using doesn't know what they are doing.

442 Guatemala

Nice Videos Thanks

SBORule

Oh yeah, if you are using a stock oil pan, get a 7 qt. Moroso pan and buy a Mellings HV oil pump and then buy a shim for the oil pressure relief spring in the oil pump from OPP or Dick Miller and shim the spring in the pump to increase oil pressure, you'll need it with loose clearances.

Also I would recommend installing screw in main restrictors and have the machine shop drill and dap and then install them in 1-4 mains. OPP or Dick should have them. Buy that baffle that Dick Miller sells that goes in between the oil pump and block to help prevent the oil from climbing the back of the oil pan during hard acceleration.

Also ask Andy Miller if you should do any lifter valley mods to help oil return the oil pan.

380 Racer

What are you doing with this engine? A good guide is .001 per inch in diameter of the crank/rod journal. I would use something other than plastigauge to do my measuring if I we you. It needs to be much more accurate. Personally I wouldn't buy a spark plug from Andy Miller.

cutlassefi

Exactly, except the last part, don't know Andy that well.

If it's street only then .0025 on the rods and .003-.0035 on the mains will be more than fine. I would still shim the pump, you can always use thinner oil if your pressure is too high. Imo the other oil mods aren't necessary for a street application.
If you're having trouble keeping bearings in this thing, invest in a set of brushes as well, they make all sizes to get into every nook and cranny, I'll bet that was at least part of your problem. And when you first fire it up, run it for a few then remove the oil filter and cut it open, that'll tell you a lot.
And SBO is right, your clearances are already set to some degree, Andy should have told you that.

442 Guatemala

I already have 7 qt pan, and also I bought A Hight Volume, High presure oil pump from Andy, I Think it has a shim on it. I also Install the Oil restrictors on 1-4 Mains.

To help oil return to pan I drill a hole in each of my heads, then drill a hole on the block, and install some hoses to help oil return fast.

Dick miller sells a Lifter Bore Restrictors, but he told me only can be use with mechanical camshaft, and mine is hydraulic.

442 Guatemala

My car is a street car. Do you have any bad Experience with Andy Miller?

380 Racer

We do not get along. On the street that is way too much clearance. Your pressure on your new motor will be didley-squat. What problems did you have before? When Miller sends his pieces out to be machined, he has them turned them loose. The last crank from Miller that I had any dealings with had the journals turned not straight. Had that 496 in my car testing converters and rear gears. With the oil hot the Pro lite (oil pressure that went off with less than 10#) would come on when I was shutting down and again when I stopped in the pits. My formula is much better than his.

442 Guatemala

My problems before was very low pressure:

1st time I had 5qt oil pan: set clearances: Main Bearing all of them to 0.002, same on rods. I star the engine for like 15 mins and I see oil pressure goes down to less than 10 lb. So I tear down engine: and I see that my main bearings was damaged and the crank too. My Heads were deep in oil, just too much.

2 time I start again: Buy 7qt oil pan, HV HP oil pump, from Andy. Install main oil restrictors from 2-4 from Mondello. set my clearances 0.002 on all Mains and 0.001 (because I was thinking moore thight clearance is going to raise my oil pressure) I started my engine and when car is cool oil presure goes between 40-50, but when is hot like 200 farenheit it goes down to 0-10. I ran the car like that maybe a 400 km. I was using 15w40 oil. So I change to 20w50 it just go worse, my oil pressure was very low. I bought a resctricted pushrods from Andy, And restricted lifters from Mondello, to stop all the oil coming up to the heds. After I installed new pushrods and lifters, I start the engine drive the car about 5 kms and my engine got stock. I tear down the engine and I found that one of Main bearing turn over. I damage my crank and most of bearings. So I called Andy and the I bought this new 425 stroke kit. but now Im so confuse. Im affraid to build that engine again, and have oil pressure problemas again.

What would you do at this time? how do you set your clearances?? Iven if Andy told me to make them loose, I can steel have them a little bit Tight? what is your formula?

thanks for all the advices

cutlassefi

You've mentioned nothing about having the block and rods machined and/or checked. This is extremely important. If you keep turning left you'll end up at the same destination every time, maybe you should turn right. Get me? Common items here are no mention of machine work in between builds, and Andy, but don't want to throw him to the wolves quite yet.

You need to find someone to check the crank, block main bores, and rods before you go any further. If you had them checked, get them checked again by someone else.

If you run .002-.0025 on the rods and .003 on 1-4 mains then .004 on #5 main (there's .0008 extra clearence already built into most makes of bearing shells) you should be fine with that pump and spring setup. Make sure the holes in the 4 corners of the block are open and free flowing for oil drainback.

I offered to help you in the beginnning, my offer still stands.

442 Guatemala

Thanks for the help I really aprecitae that.

Ok I already have the block machined to Andys clearances. Rods clearances was set by Andy at 0.003. I havent build my engine, so I can still modifiying the clearances, what do you think? I can set 0.0030 on Mains 1-4 and 0.004 on # 5. If I do that what oil should I use? what my oil pressure should be?

TripDeuces

This thread has gotten interesting to say the least. With all this talk about bearings I have to ask. What is your rod side clearance? I don't see the clearances that Andy gave you as being too big. You've already proven that the tight clearances wiped out your bearings twice. That should have been a hint. Is the crank straight along with the main bearing saddles? I also refuse to believe all that oil is being sent to the top of the engine. Ever taken a valve cover off and looked at it while running? Are you using the correct lifters (not some Chevrolet lifters that are uncovering the oil hole)?

cutlassefi

You can only open or close up the rod and main bores so much. So unless the crank is spot on you don't have much leeway.

Is the block clean? Did you remove all galley plugs in between builds? Brush out the oil holes in the crank, clean everything, then clean it again?

You'd have to have bunches of side clearence to have low oil pressure, and normally it's low from the start. Plus the mains get the oil first, you did say your mains were wiped out not the rods correct? All the mains or just certain ones? And which ones?

Red71

This is the first time I seen this posted on this thread.
excellent point.

this HAS to be done. Not just brake clean. Hot soap and water... a must.

and the reason for more bearing clearance on the Olds has to do with
shaft Dia. and bearing speed.

442 Guatemala

My rod side clearances suposse to be 0.016, I have to check them.

Im using correct lifters.

Is impossible to take a valve cover off when running, si jus to much oil.

I have to check if al Mains are aligned

442 Guatemala

So I have to check if i could close a little bit my main clearances? If I couldnt do that so I just build my engine with Andys clearances? what will happen my engine is going to get damagged again?

Yes the block was cleaned, i remove all the oil gallery blugs, etc.

What my side clearances should be? Andy told me to have 0.016 on rods. and 0.008-.009 back and forward

One main is the one who turn over. but the other ones have a very strong wear.

TripDeuces

Typical rod side clearance is .008-.013 on a stock engine. Wider then that can drastically reduce oil pressure when hot. Hopefully yours are not that big but it should be checked especially with the bearing clearances you plan on using. I guess I disagree with Andy here. I would stick with Andy's clearances on the mains and rods but tighten the side clearance if possible. I don't have an answer as to why so much oil is getting up top. Out of curiosity what cam and lifters are you using?

442 Guatemala

I was using a Mondello Camshaft JM 3-4 is too big for a street car. you can see the spec. at Mondellos web. So now I bought a new one, from Andy, but need to build my engine again and see what happens

Im using new original lifters .921 I think

cutlassefi

.016 rod side clearence is fine. .008-.009 on the crank is fine too, recommend between .006 and .010.
The only way to shrink the hole sizes is to cut the caps, rod or mains. Not recommended, they will then be out of round. They would have to be cut beyond the size your looking for then honed to the correct size. Guess you'll have to live with what Andy gave you. Make sure you have a good quality torque wrench.

What cam did he give you, be curious on that too. You don't need to do this again do you.

Which main was the worst?

442 Guatemala

Im using Aftermarket Rods, that i bought from Andy.

I think my new cam is 230-238

dont remember now which main was the worst, I need to chek on that and let you know

thanks again

greenslade

just reading a post on fram oil filters,I see you are use fram filter !!

cutlassefi

There are millions of those in use everyday, I sincerely doubt that's it.

You'll hear that cam for sure. That's the same specs as the Jm-3-4 you know.
Aftermarket rods are better than stock stuff and you can normally get by with running them a bit tighter cuz they don't flex as much as the stock stuff does. But if they're sized wrong or you have incorrect clearence it doesn't matter, bad is bad.

442_Mustang

Is the cam bad? I have an old neighbor who is a know it all and calls himself the Carguy but he is now going on his 4th cam. He does everything half assed and refuses to take any advice. I have offered help many times. A mutual friend scattered his engine on the dyno so now the old neighbor decides to tear his engine down because he wants to check the bearings(this is in an engine with less than 30 miles) well... The crank is scored on every journal the bearings are smoked and the cam is once again toast. This is because he refused to teardown and check and clean it completely after the first cam went bad on breakin(we suspect that was actually a bad cam from about 10 years ago I know there was some real problems) but he stabbed 2 more without tearing down and cleaning out and making sure things were right. Some men, you just can't reach. So now he has a pileof junk after having several sharp engine builders offer assistance. so... Is your cam and litters ok? Sorry for my rambling.

442 Guatemala

you think 0.16 clearances between rods for aftermarket rods is ok for my?

How do i know if they sized wrong?

442 Guatemala

Hello Guys, I talk today with Bill Trovato from BTR Performance, www.btrperformance.com. He has like 30 years of experience building Oldsmobile engines.

I ask him about the clearances that Andy Miller Gave me. Bill told me that the clearances that Andy gave me are ok, they are not too loose. he personally set his clearances more bigger than that... I heard something over 0.0040...

So I think I have to respect what Andy Told me

bccan

Found this thread today, waited until I got home to check Bill's book. His recs are .0038 - .0043 on rods & mains w/ variations based on power & component details. Despite the fact there are a couple of people that Andy Miller has run afoul of, he knows his stuff & normally delivers on it. I don't think there is a prominent Olds builder out there that I have not seen MF'd @ some point by someone (RR, OPP, BTR, DM, JM come to mind in the last year + LW who actually deserves all of his). If Andy gave you specs, listen & follow them. Have your machinist confirm that OPP's parts that were supplied meet those specs & ensure block is correct (& clean). Bill uses clearances "You can throw a cat through", as does Andy.
Usually when someone is dealing w/ a builder & starts second guessing all over a forum they get skewered, somehow you have avoided that so far. That said, I hope you have success w/ your build, especially after the trouble you have had. All these builders have only a few failures, their fault or not, only one of them seems to fail more than succeed & somehow still keeps going!

TripDeuces

"All these builders have only a few failures, their fault or not, only one of them still somehow seems to fail more than succeed & somehow still keeps going!"

Care to elaborate? You have my interest now. I guess I don't know all the dirt on here.

442 Guatemala

Thank you. yes I need to follow Andys recomendations, it just I was so confuse about clearances (I always tought that tight clearances are good because of oil pressure, but Olds is something else...)

I hope I build that engine correct I will let you know what happen

bccan

In the recent past, to my recall, the builders whose initials I used have been harangued by someone who held them accountable for a an engine failure, improper machine work, etc. There are other Olds builders of note, I just don't remember them being called out. The guys I noted are many of the biggest names in the Olds niche. It only goes to figure that they might not be perfect all the time, even if they are/were, some people will blame them for a failure that may or may not be of their causing. I have seen that most of them have a very loyal following which would lead me to believe they are good @ what they do, in this example, spec, supply & build Olds related performance products.

For example-
People like to pig pile on Andy because sometimes he is a little short on tact or abrasive. My personal experience is he has never been anything less than helpful & courteous w/ me & provided parts & machine work for a few different projects. Then you have one or two guys, knowledgeable & experienced that apparently had bad dealings with him. Who is right? I don't know. I do know that Andy knows his shiite. Then you take the shop out in California, far more detractors than supporters for various reasons. I personally had dealings w/ him & ended up more unhappy than happy. I dealt w/ FCR once & found him helpful, fair, maybe spread a little thin but good dealings. Unfortunately he ran afoul of many in Olds community a couple years back. BTR Bill, the man who has literally written the (modern) book on Olds engine building can seemingly do no wrong but I even remember some guy harassing him regarding a failure. Bill was great to work with but even he rubs a few people the wrong way, some find him a touch arrogant, I found him decisive, concise, precise & obviously one of the most knowledgeable guys in the business. He is even pretty funny sometimes.

Take this FWIW, I'm not the brightest bulb in the marquee, hell, I just had to run upstairs to my windows computer because I couldn't figure out how to scroll to the end of text while editing post on ipad! There are NUMEROUS posts on the Olds forums regarding these builders, I'm not gonna link them because 4:20am is looming & I gotta go to bed. At the risk of soiling this thread, maybe someone will post some links regarding discussions like this or you can figure out the references & poke around OP & ROP too.

442 Guatemala - Sorry if I crapped on your thread, seemed somewhat relevant, again I hope you have success w/ your project & get a chance to enjoy it.

TripDeuces

Thx Bccan. You've summed up my experience also. Although I have not dealt with all these people there are some who could do better for themselves and their businesses by shutting up on the various forums related to Olds rather than stirring the pot.

Guatemala good luck on your build. Keep us informed as to the outcome.

ROBZ442

442 Guatemala I just assembled my 400 two weeks ago with the same clearances you mentioned. I am using a 7 quart pan, HV melling pump, restrictors after the mains, and a shimmed oil pump. My oil pressure a idle is 65psi cold and 50psi hot.

cutlassefi

That's what I recommended as well. But Bccan you left out a 0, its .0038-.0043.
If you're not sure if the rods and such are right then have them checked by someone local that you trust.
I believe if you follow all the recommendations here you'll be successful.

Keep us posted.

442 Guatemala

My personal experience is he has never been anything less than helpful & courteous w/ me & provided parts & machine work for a few different projects.

I agree with you Andy helped me so much with that engine. I just was confused about clearances, specially here in Guatemala, the engine builders have no experience with Olds and when I told them the clearances I need to set on my engine they get scared.

442 Guatemala

I want to make clear that I'm not speaking ill of any Engine builder.
I just wanted to have the opinion of all
of you regarding how to set my clearances and properly assemble my motor
since it is the third time. I don’t want to fail again.

And Andy Miller has been helping me a lot with my motor

Thanks to All of you that reply to this thread, so I could clear my doubts. I hope theres also served as an experience to All.

By the way, today I recived my Darton Sleeves, I need to Install them on few of my cilinders so they can be machined properly to final Bore 4.040.

Ill try to keep you posted on my process

bccan

D'oh....Good catch on my clearances CEFI. You could throw a tiger through that! I'm going to edit that so I don't feel Quite so dumb & don't mislead anyone. 442G - I understand you are working without some of the resources that most of us take for granted here in the states. Trust Andy's specs & just make sure you trust your machinist to follow the plan, being careful & thorough. I still recall a thread where an Olds guy gave clearance specs to the machine shop & they ended up ignoring them &doing their own thing-too tight. IIRC after a failure or some assembly issues he took them elsewhere & had things measured, that is when he found out the shop ignored his instructions.

FWIW, my engine makes 25-30 psi hot idle oil pressure & 60 or so cold/higher revs using 5w-30 using Bill's large clearances w/a Melling HV pump.

greenslade

How is your engine comming, have you solved the ploblem yet?You say you put restricters in the 1-4 mains, as I understand it you sould not restrict the mains,you can restrick the cam drillings and the lifter bores.Restricting the mains will send more oil to the lifters and rockers and less oil to mains and cam.So where did you put the restricters?Got a picture?Good luck!