Casa

Hi guys,
I'm working on putting together my first 455 for my '69 Cutlass and I've got a few things I could use some advice on. This motor will see 99.9% street use and I don't plan on spinning it much past 5k. I'm looking to make something like 400/500 when I'm done. Compression will be in the 10:1 neighborhood, and I plan on feeding it 93 octane. Tranny will be an extreme automatics 200-4R, and the rear end will be either a 3.42 or 3.73 posi. The machine work is being done locally at the place that rebuilt my Dad's 324 for his '55 Rocket 88 (one of the stoutest little motors I've ever seen). Here's where I'm at right now:

Block: .030 over '72 455 (396021 F), align bore/hone with torque plates
Crank: Cast nodular, cross-drilled/chamfered
Rods: stock, shot peened, R&R and fitted with ARP bolts
Pistons: KB Forged (886's)
Bearings: Clevite
Rockers: Harland Sharp 5016's
Cam: Hydraulic, flat tappet to be chosen at a later date once everything else is nailed down, and it will likely be a custom grind. I don't have the budget for a hyd roller.
Heads: I have a set of J cores that I'm going to have rebuilt with mild port work. Edelbrocks are out of my range right now, but are an option 3-5 years down the road should I get the urge.
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap if they ever manage to get it into production.
Carb: 750 CFM Q-Jet

I left out some of the usual details (balancing, smoothing oil drainbacks, etc).

Questions
1) What do you guys think about oil restrictors for street use? Use them or not? Press in or screw in type?

2) What should I do about oil pan/pump. I've got a stock pan which I wouldn't mind using since it doesn't cost me anything. Can I get away with using a stock pan for street use, and if so should I use a std or HV pump with it? Like I said, I don't plan on spinning past 5k.

3) Should I use main bolts or studs?

4) Do you guys see any issues with what I've laid out so far? Any recommendations?

Sorry for the novel, but I wanted to try to give you as much info as possible. Thanks guys!

-John

svnt442

I had something similar about 16-17 years ago except I didn't do any port work on the heads and the cam was an off the shelf grind from Erson. I also used stock rocker arms and either a performer or a torker depending on when you caught me. My carb was an Elelbrock 750.
I never dynod it but it was sure a hell of a lot of fun. No restrictors, no studs, nothing exotic and it took all I could throw at it for almost 3 years and 20,000 miles until I sold it.
No need for a high volume or high pressure pump on the street. And use the stock pan.

442Harv

You do not need main studs. Also do not use a high volume oil pump with a stock pan. I use high pressure, but I'm not sure you need that with a stock motor. THe main reason I used the high pressure pump,is I could get one that used a bolt on pickup, not pressed in.All rest sounds good to me.

1974 Cutlass

I have been told that using a stock pan, with a hv pump, will suck the pan dry!
Really like the build! Good Luck

cutlassefi

Sounds like a good plan. When you're ready for a cam let me know. A roller may not be as expensive as you think.

Casa

Thanks for the responses guys. I got the feeling general consensus was never to use a high volume pump with a stock pan, but I had read about a few guys using it on the street and wasn't sure.

Cutlassefi, I'll definitely give you a shout out when I'm ready for a cam!

Eddie Hansen

I would use the stock pump with a stock pan like you said, I used an HV pump, but I got the milodon "stock" pan which holds a quart more (5 qts in the pan) and I also used restrictors, but only because they were included in the build. what kind of compression ratio are you going for? Mine wroked out to 9.5 to 1, I went with the Icon pistons ( also by keith Black) and upgraded the rods to eagles, but I don't feel it is really necessary cause I am also thinking no more then 52-5300 rpm.

anyway your build sound great!! keep us posted

Warhead

The J heads will do fine, have new guides installed, with good viton positive wiping seals.
If you do any upgrading, get some bigger intake valves, and have those installed. 2.125 intake valves are available, and those will get you more airflow for your dollar.
Main bolts would be fine for me, as long as none have been over torqued.
Drill the cam bearings holes at .080", if you want to restrict the oil. Restrictors are designed to make the seller money. Restricted push rods are even better for keeping the oil down stairs.
I always like more available oil, although not necessary with a stock pump.
Jim

Oldsguy

X2 on that one. Keep the CR at or just below 10:1 and you will be happy.

88 coupe

Not needed.

Cross drill not needed. Chamfer/teardrop should be part of any crank rebuild.

Shot peen and ARP are not needed, but ARP are good insurance.

Use the money from the above savings.

Not needed.

No reason to use restrictors.

Stock pan will work. 5 qt of oil is all that is needed if crank bearings are at or near maximum factory clearances. High volume pump (no difference in price) is needed to feed the wider clearances with thinner oil.

7 or 8 qt pan can be used with 5 qt. The extra distance between the oil and crank helps to control windage, which is good for a few "free" HP.

Did your "consensus" tell you the actual differences between the two pumps?

After the relief valve opens, there is no difference. Wouldn't you rather have more oil pressure at idle?

Norm

cutlassefi

Olds64

FWIW, when I had my engine rebuilt I had to take it into the city to find a machinist that had the equipment to line hone the mains.

My machinist also had a torque plate for Oldsmobiles. I was thinking of using this but decided against it. It would have been an extra $100 or something like that. I did some research on our website and found out it wasn't needed for a mild street rebuild. Plus, I guess they didn't even do this at the factory (according to folks on our site).

Finally, I put a deep sump oil pan and HV oil pump on my 455 only because I wanted to. I don't plan on running my car at the track except for every once in a blue moon. I figured since I was rebuilding the engine another $300 for the Milodon oil pan and HV oil pump wouldn't be that much more. I also didn't use any restrictors. My engine has been running like a champ for over 8 months.

88 coupe

I corrected the sloppy code, as best as I could. For that reason, the following answers were limited by my best understanding of the questions.

No, I did not. Did you?

You are free to do whatever you choose to do, for whatever reason you choose to do it.

Norm

J-(Chicago)

Just as a baseline, I am running a stock 455 with stock 30cc pistons, 9:1compression, xe262h cam, stock rods stock bolts, stock small valves with a 2 angle valve job. 1 g head and 1 ga head home ported. Stock pushrods, melling HV pump. 3.23 gears, th350 27"tire, 3740lbs timing @34 car went 13.16@104
That's good for over 350 horse. You have much nicer stuff to work with, and shouldn't have any problem reaching your goal.

cutlassefi

MI455

If you have the funds why not do everything you can to make sure everything's as straight and true as possible?
I would definitely go with the torque plate hone,I didn't on my block and wish I had. We bolted the heads up and measured from the bottom of the block, up into the cylinder. Wow talk about distortion..

Casa

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it. Using torque plates and line honing seemed to make sense as I'd rather go overkill on bulletproofing and reliability than skimp and possibly run into problems down the road. If it means I spend a little more than I originally planned it's not the end of the world (and I actually planned on it, knowing how car projects seem to go...) The engine was basically a bunch of parts when I bought it - block, 2 cranks, 2 sets of rod, J cores, plus a bunch of other misc. parts - and I'm mixing and matching the best of it all to get 1 complete motor out of it. I'd rather be safe than sorry, but if you guys think some of this stuff is absolutely unnecessary I won't complain about saving some $$$.

-John

Warhead

Some shops will go to align bore a block, and screw it up, be carefull.
Not all shops know how to use their own equipment.

Some things are cost effective, some are a waste of money.
Align honing is good for that last 5 horsepower, many people here balk at a simple valve job. Did you also pop for the viton seals, Forged pistons, and steel crank? EASY to spend more on the engine, than the vehicle is worth.

Factory did some real good machine work, you just don't know what some previous guy put it through.
Check everything, anyway.
Everything calls for your best judgement, don't be cheap, but be aware of what will be necessary for you and your build.
Jim

cutlassefi

I disagree with you on that Jim. Align honing is much more for bearing longevity, proper bearing crush and oil clearance than the last 5hp. And imo after 30 years of running very seldom is the factory machine work worth a darn. Just watch a cylinder being bored with a BHJ plate, they're always off.

I do agree, a good solid plan is important.

88 coupe

Problem is, not many know which is which.

There cannot be any found horsepower, at the crank bearings, unless there is a lot of friction to reduce or eliminate. If the engine survived the warranty period, you can be sure that there will be very little there.

Good enough that, except in a "high dollar" racing engine, it would be a waste of time and money to re-cut a non wearing surface.

Any main bore damage would be obvious during a visual inspection.




Exactly why it was machined to such close tolerances, at the factory.

Assuming you mean "bearing clearance", it is determined by the diameter of the finished crank journals.

30 years cannot change the way a block was machined at the factory.

Not nearly as far "off" as it would be when the completed engine (having used your torque plates) is in its power range at WOT.

Norm

cutlassefi

Still showing your lack of real world knowledge aren't you Norm. Well, at least you're consistent!

Olds64

Casa, a good investment would be Bob Gerometta's book "Engine Modification and Tuning Guide." I bought a copy when I rebuilt my 455 and it was worth the money. Even if you don't use all of the information in it you will find that it is an interesting book.

Casa

Bob's book was one of the first purchases I made after I picked up the block; all kinds of good stuff in there. I've also got a chassis service manual, which has proved invaluable since I got my Cutlass 6 years (and many many thousands of dollars) ago.

88 coupe

Still showing how you turn a simple discussion into a childish personal attack whenever you find yourself in over your head, aren't you.

Norm

Warhead

Meant to say align bore the cylinder, and hone with torque plate for the last 5 hp...but you knew that.

Most engines, if they have not pounded a bearing out of it, or going to different caps, will NOT need align bore, and hone. Fact.

I stand by my comment of factory machine work from this period.

Most of the stuff I have seen in MY 30 years of this, has been real good oem machine work, and pretty darn consistent.
Most blocks will have deck heights off by a few thou (end to end, corner to corner), but they knew what they were building and how it was to be used for the most part.
Most cylinder bores will have variances by the head bolts, when the heads get torqued down.
THERE is your power loss.

Previous owners include guys who take it to the machine shop and have it cut to their dimensions, and 10 years later dumping at the swap meet for a few bucks. Fair enough, but you do not know what life it has lived, and what the decks were cut, and if the mains were bored unless someone stamped the cut into the casting. A real surprise when you get the dial mic's out.
You really do know where the factory put it to begin with.

I must agree with Norm's assessments, and I take none of his corrections personal, as do others. Let's keep it to factual information, and keep ego out of it.
Jim

Olds64

Cool!

cutlassefi

You know what, I had a big long post here desputing most of what has been written based on my own personal experiences but I deleted it.

You all have way more experience than I do (nothing against you Jim). I think from now on I'll just ask the bookworm Norm for anything I need to know. I'm sure he'll set me straight.

Thanks in advance.
Mark

Warhead

None taken, I know that your experiences in life have given you a different take on things than me (or Norm too!), and I know that if I were to drop an engine off with you, it would NOT be a POS. I would do the heads, though, because that is what I do best.
I try to read all these posts with an eye toward learning, still.
I look forward to seeing how well Panos's 65 runs with his new bullet.
Jim

captjim

I'll dive in, feel free to comment.

Most every 350 Olds that I have checked has been very close on the align bore, but I don't have much experience in BBO builds.

Here is IMO the best way, but not always needed on every build. Align hone the block to the low side of spec, this will maximize the crush and aid in heat transfer. Install the bearings, measure the bore, then have the desired tolerance cut into the crank. Same procedure is used on the rods.

Deck plates are nice, I would think on the long stroke of a 455 that it would be worth the extra few dollars. I have done 350s with no obvious ill affects, though I usually add .0005 for insurance. I would not even consider a 403 build without them.

88 coupe

Other than the dimensions, there is no difference. The original machine work was done in the same shop, on the same machines, by the same people, working to the same tolerances.

Regarding the application that is being discussed, the above operations will only serve to inflate the total charges.




For what it's worth.

.030" over 455.
Cast crank, .003" and .0025"
Stock rods/bolts
Michigan bearings.
Badger cast pistons, 9.3:1 Compression ratio.
Balanced.
Melling High Volume oil pump.
Stock rockers.
Mondello 25-28 on 108° lobe centers.
Lightly ported heads with crossovers filled, 2.07" and 1.625" valves
Torker intake/Q-jet.
Holley "Blue" fuel pump.
92 unleaded.
Delco (points) ignition.
Cyclone headers, Immerso Turbo Mufflers, and 2.5" exhaust.
TH400 with 2400 stall
3.9:1 Anti-Spin.
Stock suspension.
28" M&H DOT Tires.

12.4xx @ 109 in a 3900# '50 Olds, at Famoso Drag Strip, in Sept of 1990.

Norm.

captjim

That is your opinion, not a fact. It is up to the individual to decide. There are many (like Mark) who consider the extra $150 to be good insurance. In this case I would agree that it will probably be fine, install the bearings, measure the bore, then cut the crank to the desired clearance.

While I agree that machine work is machine work, IMO engines have their little quirks like cylinder wall thickness, main and block strength, etc.

88 coupe

And that is your opinion, not a fact.

1. The validity of any "opinion" can only be determined by the theory it is based on.
2. A fact, can easily be proven by showing empirical evidence.

You are free to disagree with anyone at any time, but if you wish to be credible your argument should contain something other than mindless personal attacks.

And it is only a coincidence, that it makes his wallet thicker.

Again, his continuing personal attacks, do nothing to explain the basis for his opinions.

The first two steps are not necessary for the same reasons I already stated. Do I need to remind you, that we are not discussing a high dollar racing engine.

The third is contrary to what cutlassefi said in the post he deleted. You can discuss that with him.

The OP asked about his 455 Olds. I am not interested in your little diversions.

Norm

Olds64

Gents, I'm going to close this thread. I hope nobody has any hard feelings. Casa, if you have further questions please feel free to start a new thread.