liquidpower

well i got pretty mad today so i took it all apart. geting a new rad and water pump by tomorrow. the water pump looks ok and spins all right, but the impeler blades look like they might be bent in the wrong way?? idk if its right can some one chime in.

thanks

like in the pic should the pushing blade be on the inside so its cupping it.

pcard

That looks like a Master Pro Select pump. See
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...1398&ppt=C0331

I am following this with interest. I admire your tenacity.

liquidpower

thanks pcard. so the pump looks ok feels ok puting it all back together once i get the new water pump gasket in with the new 4 core rad.

Hope it all works out.

Thanks guys.

liquidpower

well put it all back together today we will see how it runs.

quick question on the radator there are 2 metal bands do i keep that on?

69442C

[quote=liquidpower;
theres a good amount of water not flowing threw the cores

To me it looks like the radiator may be clogged. I see you say that you installed a new 4 row in it last year but there should be water flowing through all the tubes. The other thing that is odd is how you have that stream of water that appears to be spraying as if its under pressure. Again, this appears as if there is a blockage that is closing off the opening of a tube causing the water to spray out of there. You should see a nice even flow of water through all tubes. If you have a radiator shop near you, I would give thought to taking the radiator to them to have it tested and cleaned out. There may have been contaminents in the cooling system that didn't come out when you did the cooling system work and that stuff is blocking some of the radiator tubes. Before you pull the radiator, I would drain the cooling system and remove the drain plugs in the block and see what comes out. These are pipe plugs, one on each side, and will be just forward of the most forward freeze plugs on the side of the block and will be forward of the motor mounts. If you find that the block is loaded up with a lot of crap, get a cooling system flush and try putting that in there and follow the directions. Make sure when you drain the system that you also remove these block plugs to drain what is in the block. You may have to do this a few times if you still find crap in there. If it's loaded up, the problem may be that coolant can't circulate correctly. If this cleans things up, try the system again and see if coolant is flowing through the radiator. If not, take the radiator to a shop for cleaning. I saw a car one time that had so much sediment in the block cooling passages that some of the freeze plugs needed to be removed to clean it out.

Give it a try and let us know.

69442C

Looks like you already got that new radiator but I would check that block for crap before installing that new radiator. No sense going down this road again if the system needs a good cleaning.

liquidpower

iv looked for the drain plugs once befor never found them i did take the water pump off and shot water in threw both of the holes in the block and threw the heater valve.

Ill look once more for the drain plugs tomorrow.

are the bolts hexs and about how big are they.

thanks

69442C

[quote are the bolts hexs and about how big are they.

thanks[/quote]

Attached is a photo that shows a block drain plug on the passenger side. The driver's side is in the same place. Plug can be removed with a 9/16 socket and I would recommend a 6 point socket instead of 12 point. If the plugs looks pretty beat up, just put new ones in and be sure to use thread sealer.

69442C

Any updates on your progress with this problem liquidpower?

liquidpower

Hey guys,

well the new radiator keeps it nice a frosty right around 180 some times in a long idle it will get up to 190 but comes down smoothly.

I shut the heater valve this morning to see what that would do as well. as the car heated up right when it reached 180 the temps jumped fast to 240. i opened the heater valve and watched temps jump from 180 to 240 back to 200 and then 215 and then back to 180 scared the **** out of me.

I have know idea what this means i have not drained the block due to time this passed 2. days. but before i put the water pump back on i did shot water in the block with a high presser hose and all around till it came out of all the holes clear.

any ideas? maybe something in the block preventing even flow wile the t-stat is closed.

442scotty

I remember the things that caused my 455 to heat up like that...I put in a HEI unit that I had to take out and get recurved to the vehicle specs and a slight head gasket leak that didnt smoke...now its 180-190 all the time on a three row rad...I had to think back..when was it ok and what did I do since that time to make changes to the engine..

Shizzy

is it a violent swing or a gradual up and down? did you put a fresh thermostat in the car when you did the pump and radiator?

have you verified the coolant temp with an IR thermometer? I picked one up at the big orange box store for $29. it would then be easy to take an actual temp reading of the radiator to verify the temps.

pcard

How long a period was it working OK with the new rad before you touched the heater valve? If it was a good length of time driving, idling, then you would have confidence that the system (pump, rad timing etc.) does in fact work well independently of the heater system. This would lead me to look at what happened in the heater system: maybe some gunk in there was released.
Or it may be something happening with your gauge/sender unit/wires. Can you independently measure the temp. Hard to do while driving with an IR meter.

liquidpower

hey,
i do have an HEI but this will happen before mechanical adv can do any thing.
the t-stat is new and the heater core is bypassed. the gauge is a mechanical one.

the sweeps are pretty fast. i don't know how long its been going on iv had the heater valve opened for a good amount of time.

its this think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7aBJh3ZEPw
but in this vid its before the car is fully up to temp

todays was worse because the car got to full temp and then when the t-stat opened (180) it jumped quick too 240 shortly after that it was back down to 183 and staying there.

if i leave the heater open the car will warm up fine and then stay right around 180 and i can even shut the heater after its at 180 and it will stay fine.

Shizzy

I would drop a new (again) thermostat in it. the only way the temp is going to swing that fast like that is if the thermostat is sticking. The thermostat is sticking shut, not allowing coolant to pass in to the radiator. that's the high temp. As soon as the thermostat snaps open, you get a rush of coolant flow, that's when it swings back down to the proper temp.

I had an old Honda once that did that except the temp sensor was on the other side of the thermostat. the temp would drop and drop and then all of the sudden snap up to 210 and then drop and drop and then snap back up to 210.

I have had many thermostats fail right out of the box. It's an $11 part, worth the try.

455man

I had an issue with a sticking tstat even after putting a new one in. then bought a heavy duty tstat and never had the problem again.

liquidpower

i don't think its the thermostat i did the hot water test on it before putting it in my car(bring some water up to a boil with stat in and see if it opens before it starts boiling)

and it only jumps up when the stat opens so normal climb too the 180 then once that hits bam shoots up and then cools down and says normal. if heater is open the hole system works fine.

edit
my stat is this one http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-16401/

Shizzy

again, I have had more than one fail right out of the box. either way, run down to the parts store, spend your $11 for a new one and try it.

Shizzy

also, you say it works fine with the heater on, but you have the heater core bypassed? with the heater set to on, doesn't the heater control valve open? wouldn't this then bypass some of the coolant past the thermostat, thereby muffling the coolant swing?

When you tested the thermostat in hot water did you hang the thermostat off the bottom of the pan or drop it in the bottom? if it was sitting on the bottom, then your test was inaccurate.

pcard

Some thoughts:
- with the heater core bypassed there should be no effect if the heater was open or closed.
- on warm up, where is that hot 240 degree water coming from when the rest of the engine is stll only 180 (it takes time for water to go from 180 to 240), unless there is some pocket of water that is not being circulated through the goose neck during the warm up (static and therefore can get hotter than the rest of the coolant), but is released when the flow opens up through the big radiator hose.
- is it possible to install a second temp gauge somewhere, with shielded wiring?

Shizzy

there is if he is still running the coolant through the heater control valve.

liquidpower

the heater core is bypassed

this is what im thinking is happening.

the heater valve moves water back to the pump from the back of the engine, making the water circulate but not to the rad.

i will put a new stat in tomorrow and see what happens.
but this has been happening for a wile and iv tried new stats.

yes.

I had the thermostat upside down so the wax was not touching the element.

greenslade

hot coolant maybe going into the heater hose from rear of engine,with the valve closed it has nowhere to go and keeps getting hotter/heat travels up/when you open the valve that hot coolant goes to the pump then to the temp sensor and shows a fast rise in temp,as it continues to circulate it mixes in and every thing goes back to nornal.try to check the temp of the heater hose at both sides of shut off valve with valve closed.by the way if the heater is bypassed why mess with it ,just leave the valve open.

Shizzy

you really need to suspend the thermostat off the bottom of the pan to get an accurate test.

1968Cutlassfallbrook

Also are you installing the thermostat in correctly? I had someone do some work on my car and he had installed it wrong. Also have you flushed your block if you go to autozone you can get those flush kits that you hook up to your heater hose. Also have you done a pressure check on your system to make sure there aren't any leaks cause maybe a clamp or something could be loose.

liquidpower

hey every one,

Put a new thermostat in still has the same thing. one thing that is kind of cool. if its warming up before its even at like 150 and i have the heater valve open, if i close it the temp will drop down too 140 instantly. and then if i open it back up its right back at 150.

pcard

How is your heater core by passed? I would love to see some temperature readings from a second source.

liquidpower

where / how would i put the second temp sensor

hears a vid of the temp changing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax_hyVTKpq8

greenslade

How is your heater core by passed?pics

liquidpower

one hose from back of block where valve. is to water pump. ill take a pic friday

1968Cutlassfallbrook

yeah I had done that with my heater core when it had leaked it's just the heater valve and to the water pump. Do you have a recovery tank on your car? As you might need one to help keep the temp down.

miked

Don't know if this pertains to your problem but my dentist had a newly built 455 with eratic temp that had missing spring wire in lower rad hose and it was collapsing. Good luck, nothing worse to troubleshoot than temp problems!

liquidpower

the over heating has stopped for the most part it will only over heat if.
The heater valve is closed when the tsat opens when that happens it will jump way high up to 140 and then come back down quickly.

If the car is get up to temp and i close the heater valve it will jump down 10 degrees and then when i open back it it will come back up just as quick

in the pic is how the core is by passed.

pcard

Evidence that there is a significant temperature gradient in the engine due to inefficient coolant flow in the rear section, even when the engine is running with the thermostat open.
I cannot believe that the GMs engineers would have allowed that in their design.
I wonder if anyone else experiences this; I only have an idiot light so cannot tell. Nor do I have the heater core bypassed.
Maybe start a new post to specifically ask that question to see if we can attract new attention?
In the mean time - definitely run with the heater valve open.

SBORule

If you want to flush the block, all you had to do was remove the top hose at the radiator and put a garden hose in the radiator and turn on the engine and let it run with the water going into the radiator just fast enough to keep it full.

But of course you should of done this before putting the new radiator in.

I would plug that heater valve on the intake and remove the t-stat and leave it out.

I would pull the lower hose and drain the radiator, say good bye to the anti freeze, plain water will cool better than a 50/50 mix of anti/water will. Fill the radiator up a few times while someone holds their hand over the the lower hose stub and let it run out a few times, I hate the thought of rust and god only knows what from the block is now in your new radiator.

After you flushed the radiator a few times reconnect the lower hose and loosen the top hose as described above and put the garden hose in the fill spout and turn on the water enough that it keeps the radiator full and let the engine idle for a while, it shouldn't over heat if you removed the t-stat and you are running cold water into the radiator. Let the water run out the top hose for 15 minutes or so until it's running out totally clean.

Then add a bottle of water wetter to the radiator after you tightened up all the hoses and you are sure you have no leaks. That stuff will lower temps 20 degrees and it keeps everything lubricated in the coolant system.

Not running enough timing will make you care run hotter than if you had too much timing in it and the valves were pinging. Have you replaced the timing chain in this beast ever? If not, maybe you should.

I think I have seen you driving your car once or twice in Casselberry.

This is my piece of junk.

http://www.angelfire.com/sports/hotrodder

liquidpower

hey guys i guess im going to re re flush the system it will stay cool with the heater open but something is really blocking the left side.

today i drove a short distance with the heater off and when i turned the car off i hured a pulsing moan i look at my temp gauge and its bouncing 200 to 240 fast once a sec just about. seamed like it over heated and as the cap let the presser out the hot water from the heater valve side came over the temp gauge.

so with my flush im going to get rid of all coolant in it now. and then pull the block plugs. do you think i should run a chem flush as well.

any more tips. last time i took off the water pump and shot water in both holes in front of block, and back down in to the heater valve.

thanks

69442C

Definitely a chemical flush as it seems you have a lot of crud in there, especially since it caused your radiator to become plugged in just one year. It would have been better to do this with the old radiator in there. Flushing water into the water pump holes does nothing. If sediment is in the bottom area of the block, it will continue to sit there as it has weight to it. You may get some to come up and out the WP holes but not much. It needs to run out the bottom. When you pull those block drain plugs you should have an idea of what you have in there. Since this could require several drain and flush attempts, I would pick up a couple of radiator drain petcocks and install them in place of the block drain plugs. The are a direct fit. Now all you need to do is spin the valve open to drain the block. You could run the hose into the radiator and just let the water run out of the block to try to flush out what you can. Hopefully it's not clogged too badly. Like I mentioned before, I had one years ago that was so bad it looked like solid mud in there and it required the removal of a few freeze plugs to get that stuff cleaned out. Make sure you follow the instructions for the flush product.

liquidpower

well i pulled the driver side plug and that dumped coolant so then i put it back in. I removed the pass side and nothing came out so I poked it some and i get it to start flowing. i scrape around a bit make it flow out better and then turn on the car so the water pump can shoot it out. still draining and flushing. ill put the chem. flush in tonight and drive for a day or so and flush once more from the block plugs

liquidpower

I have also read about a flush useing oxalic acid first and washing soda as a neutralizer. and one using Cascade Electric Dish washing detergent.

Any one ever hear of this?

MDchanic

Plain water will also boil at a significantly lower temperature, placing a cozy insulating layer of steam between the engine and all that cool water, and darn near guaranteeing hot spots and warpage, should the engine begin to get hot.

It also encourages corrosion, which antifreeze helps to prevent.

I would NOT recommend plain water for any period of time.

- Eric