455 what did it come from?
#1
455 what did it come from?
Hey folks, new here. This past weekend I was given a 455 to drop into my 77 Buick (I'll wind up putting it in a 70 cutlass someday when I buy one). The guy I got the engine from claims its a 400hp 1970 toronado 455. I'm not sure if I believe that or not.
The casting numbers are 396021F, and they are E code heads. The block is a light blue color. According to the numbers on the oil fill tube, the block year is actually a 1970, so it looks like he got the year correct.
Any info on what it could have come from would be greatly appreciated!
The casting numbers are 396021F, and they are E code heads. The block is a light blue color. According to the numbers on the oil fill tube, the block year is actually a 1970, so it looks like he got the year correct.
Any info on what it could have come from would be greatly appreciated!
#3
Tried that, it's missing the first few digits. If Im not mistaken, what numbers are there read 132883 which to me means nothing. i think those are just the production numbers
Last edited by NorthernMainer; January 9th, 2017 at 02:31 PM.
#4
The last 6 digits of the VIN derivative stamped on the engine block are the sequence number. The first of those 6 digits would be a 5 on a 1970 engine if it came from a Toronado. Apart from that, does the engine have the Toronado-specific parts, such as the sunken intake manifold and front engine mount?
#5
The last 6 digits of the VIN derivative stamped on the engine block are the sequence number. The first of those 6 digits would be a 5 on a 1970 engine if it came from a Toronado. Apart from that, does the engine have the Toronado-specific parts, such as the sunken intake manifold and front engine mount?
#7
Toronado exhaust manifolds are unique to Toronados also if the engine came with the manifolds you could check that. If I remember correctly the axle mounts also span all three engine mount bolt holes having used the first and last holes for bolts. Is there an indication of that on the block? The mount had a shallow u-shaped depression that might be visible. The front mount has already been mentioned as has the depressed intake manifold unique to Toronados.
I'm not aware of any way to tell a GT 400hp engine from a regular 375hp Toronado engine in 1970 but others may know.
I'm not aware of any way to tell a GT 400hp engine from a regular 375hp Toronado engine in 1970 but others may know.
#8
engine discern
Toronado exhaust manifolds are unique to Toronados also if the engine came with the manifolds you could check that. If I remember correctly the axle mounts also span all three engine mount bolt holes having used the first and last holes for bolts. Is there an indication of that on the block? The mount had a shallow u-shaped depression that might be visible. The front mount has already been mentioned as has the depressed intake manifold unique to Toronados.
I'm not aware of any way to tell a GT 400hp engine from a regular 375hp Toronado engine in 1970 but others may know.
I'm not aware of any way to tell a GT 400hp engine from a regular 375hp Toronado engine in 1970 but others may know.
Camshaft is different but that is not an external clue.
#9
I did some inspecting today, and I don't think it's from a Toronado. It has a 2 barrel intake casting number 388625. I'm going to say the engine is for sure a 1970 according to the numbers I pulled off the oil fill tube, and the casting number of the block. It has E code heads which I've read are from 1970, but that could be wrong. The oil pan doesn't match up to a Toronado oil pan, and the piece where the oil filter screws on, is not correct for a Toronado. Starting to think it may be from a 1970 Delta 88, as I highly doubt the 442 came with a 2 barrel carb.
I ask all this because I plan to rebuild it, and would like to get it around the 400hp mark. Wondering what pistons to buy, and what I should run for a cam.
I ask all this because I plan to rebuild it, and would like to get it around the 400hp mark. Wondering what pistons to buy, and what I should run for a cam.
#11
Casting numbers were used for multiple years and tell you nothing. Bolt-on parts like manifolds can be changed and also tell you nothing. The VIN derivative will tell you the exact year of the block. Try taking a pencil rubbing of the VIN derivative stamp. Sometimes that will show more clearly than you can read from the stamp directly.
The serial number (last six digits of the VIN derivative) can indicate what this motor came from IF you know the assembly plant (that would be the third character of the VIN derivative). For example, IF this is a Lansing block, it would have come from an A-body (Delta 88s and 98s used serial numbers starting with 400001 and Toros started with 700001). If, however, it was a Fairfax, KS assembly plant, then it could only have come from a D88. This is why you need to know the entire VIN derivative.
A-body cars like the Supreme and Vista Cruiser were built with 455 2bbl motors.
The serial number (last six digits of the VIN derivative) can indicate what this motor came from IF you know the assembly plant (that would be the third character of the VIN derivative). For example, IF this is a Lansing block, it would have come from an A-body (Delta 88s and 98s used serial numbers starting with 400001 and Toros started with 700001). If, however, it was a Fairfax, KS assembly plant, then it could only have come from a D88. This is why you need to know the entire VIN derivative.
A-body cars like the Supreme and Vista Cruiser were built with 455 2bbl motors.
#12
The serial number (last six digits of the VIN derivative) can indicate what this motor came from IF you know the assembly plant (that would be the third character of the VIN derivative). For example, IF this is a Lansing block, it would have come from an A-body (Delta 88s and 98s used serial numbers starting with 400001 and Toros started with 700001).
#13
Casting numbers were used for multiple years and tell you nothing. Bolt-on parts like manifolds can be changed and also tell you nothing. The VIN derivative will tell you the exact year of the block. Try taking a pencil rubbing of the VIN derivative stamp. Sometimes that will show more clearly than you can read from the stamp directly.
The serial number (last six digits of the VIN derivative) can indicate what this motor came from IF you know the assembly plant (that would be the third character of the VIN derivative). For example, IF this is a Lansing block, it would have come from an A-body (Delta 88s and 98s used serial numbers starting with 400001 and Toros started with 700001). If, however, it was a Fairfax, KS assembly plant, then it could only have come from a D88. This is why you need to know the entire VIN derivative.
A-body cars like the Supreme and Vista Cruiser were built with 455 2bbl motors.
The serial number (last six digits of the VIN derivative) can indicate what this motor came from IF you know the assembly plant (that would be the third character of the VIN derivative). For example, IF this is a Lansing block, it would have come from an A-body (Delta 88s and 98s used serial numbers starting with 400001 and Toros started with 700001). If, however, it was a Fairfax, KS assembly plant, then it could only have come from a D88. This is why you need to know the entire VIN derivative.
A-body cars like the Supreme and Vista Cruiser were built with 455 2bbl motors.
Hope that may help.
#14
It's a 1970 and it can be built to meet your specifications. It probably has the small valves but that can also be fixed by the machine shop.
My first 455 was supposed to be an original 442 motor. It turned out to be a full size car motor. No worries. It had the E heads so I was just going to build it to meet my needs. I later had the opportunity to buy a Toro motor out of a running Toronado with the High Output motor. So I jumped on it and later sold the first motor. Now I wish I hadn't. I could use that oil pan. LOL
I sourced the A-body exhaust manifolds from another parts car I bought. I picked up an old Offenhouser intake manifold on Ebay, I also bought a set of Hardin valve covers and a Unilite Distributor that were used on an old 1970s Oldsmobile powered jet boat. Again from Ebay. So I think I've got everything I need. except that darn oil pan. LOL
My first 455 was supposed to be an original 442 motor. It turned out to be a full size car motor. No worries. It had the E heads so I was just going to build it to meet my needs. I later had the opportunity to buy a Toro motor out of a running Toronado with the High Output motor. So I jumped on it and later sold the first motor. Now I wish I hadn't. I could use that oil pan. LOL
I sourced the A-body exhaust manifolds from another parts car I bought. I picked up an old Offenhouser intake manifold on Ebay, I also bought a set of Hardin valve covers and a Unilite Distributor that were used on an old 1970s Oldsmobile powered jet boat. Again from Ebay. So I think I've got everything I need. except that darn oil pan. LOL
#15
Good thing.
1970 was the first year that the full size cars got a separate block of sequence numbers from the A-body cars. This chart is from the Parts Book but is also in the 1970 CSM section 0. Note that for Lansing built cars, A-body cars were assigned numbers starting with 100001, B/C body cars got numbers starting with 400001, and Toros starting with 700001. Linden was the only other plant that built both A-body and B/C-body cars and also used the 100001/400001 serial number split. Other B/C-body plants started at 100001.
1970 was the first year that the full size cars got a separate block of sequence numbers from the A-body cars. This chart is from the Parts Book but is also in the 1970 CSM section 0. Note that for Lansing built cars, A-body cars were assigned numbers starting with 100001, B/C body cars got numbers starting with 400001, and Toros starting with 700001. Linden was the only other plant that built both A-body and B/C-body cars and also used the 100001/400001 serial number split. Other B/C-body plants started at 100001.
#16
"B" (Baltimore) wasn't used by Olds for the 1970 model year. I suspect that is really an "E" (Linden, NJ). That means this block did come from an A-body, and as a 2bbl it was a Cutlass or VC motor. The only possible alternative would be a "D" (Doraville), which would make it a D88 motor.
#17
"B" (Baltimore) wasn't used by Olds for the 1970 model year. I suspect that is really an "E" (Linden, NJ). That means this block did come from an A-body, and as a 2bbl it was a Cutlass or VC motor. The only possible alternative would be a "D" (Doraville), which would make it a D88 motor.
The numbers on the oil fill are 0205653. Pretty sure the first digit designates the year. Could be wrong.
Last edited by NorthernMainer; January 10th, 2017 at 03:01 PM.
#18
Camshaft and pistons (compression ratio and type of material) depend upon your intended application.
Last edited by Fun71; January 10th, 2017 at 03:12 PM.
#19
If you are rebuilding, then it really doesn't matter what vehicle the engine originally came in or what power level it had. Other than the obvious 2bbl vs 4bbl carb/intake manifold, the only significant differences in the various engines would be the camshaft profile, the piston dish volume, and the valve sizes. All of these things can be changed during the rebuild (and other than valve sizes should be changed).
#20
Thanks guys! Yeah I was curious, because if it was from a Toronado like the guy said, then I would have left the cam and pistons alone because those cars came with plenty of power.
UNFORTUNATELY the engine is all disassembled, for some reason he took the main caps off, and set them aside... Luckily they are numbered from the factory, but I don't know what order they go in from the flywheel forward. Will have to do some searching, and figure that out. Crank is good, but I think the cylinders need to be bored a bit, and Ill probably get new connecting rods while im at it since he took them all apart too without labeling anything.
UNFORTUNATELY the engine is all disassembled, for some reason he took the main caps off, and set them aside... Luckily they are numbered from the factory, but I don't know what order they go in from the flywheel forward. Will have to do some searching, and figure that out. Crank is good, but I think the cylinders need to be bored a bit, and Ill probably get new connecting rods while im at it since he took them all apart too without labeling anything.
#21
#22
Right. Now to figure out what CC pistons to order (after talking to my machinist about possibly having to bore), what thickness headgaskets.. etc. Obviously I want to be able to run pump gas, but I would like to get up around 10:1 CR.
#23
The only 2 bbl available on a Vista Cruiser was a 350. The sole engine option for Vista Cruiser was the 455 4 bbl engine from the 98 (L31).
#24
Even though they ran down the same line! They ran A bodies for certain amount of time and then B and C ran together.
Same thing at plant 2. The rear ends did the same thing A car line and B and C
This 1973 but shows the idea! FYI Corbis Images is no longer! Good thing we saved these photos!
Pat
Same thing at plant 2. The rear ends did the same thing A car line and B and C
This 1973 but shows the idea! FYI Corbis Images is no longer! Good thing we saved these photos!
Pat
#25
#27
Measure the combustion chamber volume in the heads as well. you will need to know that in order to then select the correct piston dish volume.
#29
#30
1970 was the first year that the full size cars got a separate block of sequence numbers from the A-body cars. This chart is from the Parts Book but is also in the 1970 CSM section 0. Note that for Lansing built cars, A-body cars were assigned numbers starting with 100001, B/C body cars got numbers starting with 400001, and Toros starting with 700001. Linden was the only other plant that built both A-body and B/C-body cars and also used the 100001/400001 serial number split. Other B/C-body plants started at 100001.
Actually, if anyone has a copy of the E-body assembly manual, I bet section 0 shows where the VIN sequence number starts.
#32
Thanks for posting the chart, Joe. I see it in my Parts Catalogs, too. But I don't see anything about the sequence number in the CSM. I don't know where I got the idea that Toros started at 500001 in 1970; I'm sure I read it somewhere I thought was legit. Maybe in Setting the Pace? I'll let you know if I ever find something convincing to refute the Parts Catalogs (which aren't exactly known as the final word on originality).
FYI, 1970 was the first year that Olds used the 100001/400001/700001 serial number splits for Lansing built cars. Prior to that, all RWD cars started with 100001 (and were interspersed) while Toros started with 500001.
#33
#34
They are E code heads, so either 77, or 80cc. I still need to finish pulling the engine apart. 2 of the pistons are froze pretty good in there, I put penetrating oil on them, and let them sit the past 3 days. I will try to get them out today, and if so then it's off to the machine shop this coming week!
#35
#36
The machine shop should be able to do that, or at least I hope. I don't know how to.
#37
#39
Yes, typically a couple of sharp taps will drop them in, but if you're taking the engine apart, and if you're sending it on to a machinist, there is no reason to install them now.
- Eric
- Eric
#40
Also hoping there are no cracks in the block, I had to persuade 2 of the pistons to come out.