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Hey folks, new here. This past weekend I was given a 455 to drop into my 77 Buick (I'll wind up putting it in a 70 cutlass someday when I buy one). The guy I got the engine from claims its a 400hp 1970 toronado 455. I'm not sure if I believe that or not.
The casting numbers are 396021F, and they are E code heads. The block is a light blue color. According to the numbers on the oil fill tube, the block year is actually a 1970, so it looks like he got the year correct.
Any info on what it could have come from would be greatly appreciated!
SO what is the vin stamping on the drivers side of the engine block below the head there is a little pad of the block with numbers on it. This can help figure out what it came from.
SO what is the vin stamping on the drivers side of the engine block below the head there is a little pad of the block with numbers on it. This can help figure out what it came from.
Tried that, it's missing the first few digits. If Im not mistaken, what numbers are there read 132883 which to me means nothing. i think those are just the production numbers
Last edited by NorthernMainer; Jan 9, 2017 at 02:31 PM.
The last 6 digits of the VIN derivative stamped on the engine block are the sequence number. The first of those 6 digits would be a 5 on a 1970 engine if it came from a Toronado. Apart from that, does the engine have the Toronado-specific parts, such as the sunken intake manifold and front engine mount?
The last 6 digits of the VIN derivative stamped on the engine block are the sequence number. The first of those 6 digits would be a 5 on a 1970 engine if it came from a Toronado. Apart from that, does the engine have the Toronado-specific parts, such as the sunken intake manifold and front engine mount?
I will have to check, I have the bare block in my garage, the rest is in the trunk of my Buick which is buried in 4 feet of snow
Toronado exhaust manifolds are unique to Toronados also if the engine came with the manifolds you could check that. If I remember correctly the axle mounts also span all three engine mount bolt holes having used the first and last holes for bolts. Is there an indication of that on the block? The mount had a shallow u-shaped depression that might be visible. The front mount has already been mentioned as has the depressed intake manifold unique to Toronados.
I'm not aware of any way to tell a GT 400hp engine from a regular 375hp Toronado engine in 1970 but others may know.
Toronado exhaust manifolds are unique to Toronados also if the engine came with the manifolds you could check that. If I remember correctly the axle mounts also span all three engine mount bolt holes having used the first and last holes for bolts. Is there an indication of that on the block? The mount had a shallow u-shaped depression that might be visible. The front mount has already been mentioned as has the depressed intake manifold unique to Toronados.
I'm not aware of any way to tell a GT 400hp engine from a regular 375hp Toronado engine in 1970 but others may know.
Camshaft is different but that is not an external clue.
I did some inspecting today, and I don't think it's from a Toronado. It has a 2 barrel intake casting number 388625. I'm going to say the engine is for sure a 1970 according to the numbers I pulled off the oil fill tube, and the casting number of the block. It has E code heads which I've read are from 1970, but that could be wrong. The oil pan doesn't match up to a Toronado oil pan, and the piece where the oil filter screws on, is not correct for a Toronado. Starting to think it may be from a 1970 Delta 88, as I highly doubt the 442 came with a 2 barrel carb.
I ask all this because I plan to rebuild it, and would like to get it around the 400hp mark. Wondering what pistons to buy, and what I should run for a cam.
Casting numbers were used for multiple years and tell you nothing. Bolt-on parts like manifolds can be changed and also tell you nothing. The VIN derivative will tell you the exact year of the block. Try taking a pencil rubbing of the VIN derivative stamp. Sometimes that will show more clearly than you can read from the stamp directly.
The serial number (last six digits of the VIN derivative) can indicate what this motor came from IF you know the assembly plant (that would be the third character of the VIN derivative). For example, IF this is a Lansing block, it would have come from an A-body (Delta 88s and 98s used serial numbers starting with 400001 and Toros started with 700001). If, however, it was a Fairfax, KS assembly plant, then it could only have come from a D88. This is why you need to know the entire VIN derivative.
A-body cars like the Supreme and Vista Cruiser were built with 455 2bbl motors.
The serial number (last six digits of the VIN derivative) can indicate what this motor came from IF you know the assembly plant (that would be the third character of the VIN derivative). For example, IF this is a Lansing block, it would have come from an A-body (Delta 88s and 98s used serial numbers starting with 400001 and Toros started with 700001).
I don't think what you said is correct for 1970 Lansing-built cars. All models except Toro were built on the same line, interspersed with each other, with the sequence number starting at 100001. So 100001 might have been a Cutlass, 100002 might have been a Delta 88, etc. The Toros were built on a separate line and started with 500001. I'm open to correction.
Casting numbers were used for multiple years and tell you nothing. Bolt-on parts like manifolds can be changed and also tell you nothing. The VIN derivative will tell you the exact year of the block. Try taking a pencil rubbing of the VIN derivative stamp. Sometimes that will show more clearly than you can read from the stamp directly.
The serial number (last six digits of the VIN derivative) can indicate what this motor came from IF you know the assembly plant (that would be the third character of the VIN derivative). For example, IF this is a Lansing block, it would have come from an A-body (Delta 88s and 98s used serial numbers starting with 400001 and Toros started with 700001). If, however, it was a Fairfax, KS assembly plant, then it could only have come from a D88. This is why you need to know the entire VIN derivative.
A-body cars like the Supreme and Vista Cruiser were built with 455 2bbl motors.
I tried your trick.. it was so worn that it wouldn't work, however I used a brass wire wheel to clean the junk off. I was able to get 30B132835.
It's a 1970 and it can be built to meet your specifications. It probably has the small valves but that can also be fixed by the machine shop.
My first 455 was supposed to be an original 442 motor. It turned out to be a full size car motor. No worries. It had the E heads so I was just going to build it to meet my needs. I later had the opportunity to buy a Toro motor out of a running Toronado with the High Output motor. So I jumped on it and later sold the first motor. Now I wish I hadn't. I could use that oil pan. LOL
I sourced the A-body exhaust manifolds from another parts car I bought. I picked up an old Offenhouser intake manifold on Ebay, I also bought a set of Hardin valve covers and a Unilite Distributor that were used on an old 1970s Oldsmobile powered jet boat. Again from Ebay. So I think I've got everything I need. except that darn oil pan. LOL
1970 was the first year that the full size cars got a separate block of sequence numbers from the A-body cars. This chart is from the Parts Book but is also in the 1970 CSM section 0. Note that for Lansing built cars, A-body cars were assigned numbers starting with 100001, B/C body cars got numbers starting with 400001, and Toros starting with 700001. Linden was the only other plant that built both A-body and B/C-body cars and also used the 100001/400001 serial number split. Other B/C-body plants started at 100001.
I tried your trick.. it was so worn that it wouldn't work, however I used a brass wire wheel to clean the junk off. I was able to get 30B132835.
Hope that may help.
"B" (Baltimore) wasn't used by Olds for the 1970 model year. I suspect that is really an "E" (Linden, NJ). That means this block did come from an A-body, and as a 2bbl it was a Cutlass or VC motor. The only possible alternative would be a "D" (Doraville), which would make it a D88 motor.
"B" (Baltimore) wasn't used by Olds for the 1970 model year. I suspect that is really an "E" (Linden, NJ). That means this block did come from an A-body, and as a 2bbl it was a Cutlass or VC motor. The only possible alternative would be a "D" (Doraville), which would make it a D88 motor.
E makes more sense, that's what I thought it was at first, but did not know there was an E for Linden NJ.
The numbers on the oil fill are 0205653. Pretty sure the first digit designates the year. Could be wrong.
Last edited by NorthernMainer; Jan 10, 2017 at 03:01 PM.
I ask all this because I plan to rebuild it, and would like to get it around the 400hp mark. Wondering what pistons to buy, and what I should run for a cam.
Originally Posted by Olds442redberet
It's a 1970 and it can be built to meet your specifications. It probably has the small valves but that can also be fixed by the machine shop.
Exactly. If you are rebuilding, then it really doesn't matter what vehicle the engine originally came in or what power level it had. Other than the obvious 2bbl vs 4bbl carb/intake manifold, the only significant differences in the various engines would be the camshaft profile, the pistons (dish volume), and the valve sizes. All of these things can be changed during the rebuild (and other than valve sizes these parts should be replaced).
Camshaft and pistons (compression ratio and type of material) depend upon your intended application.
If you are rebuilding, then it really doesn't matter what vehicle the engine originally came in or what power level it had. Other than the obvious 2bbl vs 4bbl carb/intake manifold, the only significant differences in the various engines would be the camshaft profile, the piston dish volume, and the valve sizes. All of these things can be changed during the rebuild (and other than valve sizes should be changed).
Exactly. We get a lot of questions from people who want to pin down what their engine came out of, yet they plan to only use it as a core to rebuild anyway. The bottom line is that any 1968-1976 455 block is an equally good starting point. Ignore any internet BS about nickel content. All factory heads other than "J" castings have equal potential (and arguably, the J heads have more meat for porting ). You're highly unlikely to find a block with a forged crank, and the stock nodular cranks are fine for any reasonable street motor. You're replacing pistons, cam, lifters, pushrods, valvesprings, and oil pump anyway if you're smart.
Thanks guys! Yeah I was curious, because if it was from a Toronado like the guy said, then I would have left the cam and pistons alone because those cars came with plenty of power.
UNFORTUNATELY the engine is all disassembled, for some reason he took the main caps off, and set them aside... Luckily they are numbered from the factory, but I don't know what order they go in from the flywheel forward. Will have to do some searching, and figure that out. Crank is good, but I think the cylinders need to be bored a bit, and Ill probably get new connecting rods while im at it since he took them all apart too without labeling anything.
but I think the cylinders need to be bored a bit, and Ill probably get new connecting rods while im at it since he took them all apart too without labeling anything.
This statement is inconsistent with keeping the pistons if it were a Toro motor anyway.
This statement is inconsistent with keeping the pistons if it were a Toro motor anyway.
Right. Now to figure out what CC pistons to order (after talking to my machinist about possibly having to bore), what thickness headgaskets.. etc. Obviously I want to be able to run pump gas, but I would like to get up around 10:1 CR.
Right. Now to figure out what CC pistons to order (after talking to my machinist about possibly having to bore), what thickness headgaskets.. etc. Obviously I want to be able to run pump gas, but I would like to get up around 10:1 CR.
Measure the combustion chamber volume in the heads as well. you will need to know that in order to then select the correct piston dish volume.
1970 was the first year that the full size cars got a separate block of sequence numbers from the A-body cars. This chart is from the Parts Book but is also in the 1970 CSM section 0. Note that for Lansing built cars, A-body cars were assigned numbers starting with 100001, B/C body cars got numbers starting with 400001, and Toros starting with 700001. Linden was the only other plant that built both A-body and B/C-body cars and also used the 100001/400001 serial number split. Other B/C-body plants started at 100001.
Thanks for posting the chart, Joe. I see it in my Parts Catalogs, too. But I don't see anything about the sequence number in the CSM. I don't know where I got the idea that Toros started at 500001 in 1970; I'm sure I read it somewhere I thought was legit. Maybe in Setting the Pace? I'll let you know if I ever find something convincing to refute the Parts Catalogs (which aren't exactly known as the final word on originality).
Actually, if anyone has a copy of the E-body assembly manual, I bet section 0 shows where the VIN sequence number starts.
Thanks for posting the chart, Joe. I see it in my Parts Catalogs, too. But I don't see anything about the sequence number in the CSM. I don't know where I got the idea that Toros started at 500001 in 1970; I'm sure I read it somewhere I thought was legit. Maybe in Setting the Pace? I'll let you know if I ever find something convincing to refute the Parts Catalogs (which aren't exactly known as the final word on originality).
You are correct, I was thinking of the 1972 CSM, which DOES have a version of that chart. The 1970 CSM does not.
FYI, 1970 was the first year that Olds used the 100001/400001/700001 serial number splits for Lansing built cars. Prior to that, all RWD cars started with 100001 (and were interspersed) while Toros started with 500001.
Measure the combustion chamber volume in the heads as well. you will need to know that in order to then select the correct piston dish volume.
They are E code heads, so either 77, or 80cc. I still need to finish pulling the engine apart. 2 of the pistons are froze pretty good in there, I put penetrating oil on them, and let them sit the past 3 days. I will try to get them out today, and if so then it's off to the machine shop this coming week!
The blueprint spec is 80cc. That is NOT the as-cast number, which is usually larger. If the heads have ever been resurfaced or the valves ground, the number will be different. MEASURE IT.
The blueprint spec is 80cc. That is NOT the as-cast number, which is usually larger. If the heads have ever been resurfaced or the valves ground, the number will be different. MEASURE IT.
The machine shop should be able to do that, or at least I hope. I don't know how to.
Question for you guys, is there a trick to get the main caps to go into place? They don't seem to want to fit into their spots, and I don't know if it's okay to tap them in.
Yes, typically a couple of sharp taps will drop them in, but if you're taking the engine apart, and if you're sending it on to a machinist, there is no reason to install them now.
Yes, typically a couple of sharp taps will drop them in, but if you're taking the engine apart, and if you're sending it on to a machinist, there is no reason to install them now.
- Eric
Yeah I was just curious. Hoping he has the room to get it in the shop this week. I will probably just have him install the crank, and torque it down.
Also hoping there are no cracks in the block, I had to persuade 2 of the pistons to come out.
). You're highly unlikely to find a block with a forged crank, and the stock nodular cranks are fine for any reasonable street motor. You're replacing pistons, cam, lifters, pushrods, valvesprings, and oil pump anyway if you're smart.
