captjim

So, you ask questions demand answers in another guys thread, right? Isn't this the part where you start another thread?

"How can it be done by "degreeing" the cam?"

I never said that it could, I said,
Originally Posted by captjim
........ I also understand that some builders do it to verify cam tunnel location and align bore straightness.

Last time I heard it IIRC was Joe mOndello on the Horsepower TV show.

ijasond

I caught that episode. It was refreshing to see them building an Olds motor on there.

88 coupe

Perhaps I know a few quicker, less expensive, and/or more accurate ways to get the job done.

If so, it has nothing to do with any "experience" or "credentials" I might (or might not) possess.

It is a simple statement of fact.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Only took a couple of minutes. Nothing there that cannot be found elsewhere on the internet.

Norm

88 coupe

Only if the statements are unclear, or are not supported by logic.

In such instances, ones failure to correct an error, a typo, BS, or to otherwise clarify it, should always be called into question.

Let us take a closer look at what you did say:

I asked a simple question. Whether you choose to clarify/correct it, or not, is up to you.

Not among the best sources for accurate information.

Norm

88 coupe

Posted without further comment.





Norm

ijasond

I dug all through my files, certain all the while that I would find all of the paper work I needed to give you guys the information you were asking for, but the info on the important stuff such as the cam, pistons, lifters and springs are nowhere to be found. I believe they're all together, where ever they are. I believe I kept them out somewhere more accessible so they wouldn't get lost in the abyss of storage boxes and old documents, but apparently that plan backfired. I have since moved to another house and moved my body shop and these apparently got lost or misplaced along the way.
The good news is that things are looking a bit better. I found a small vacuum leak in the hose that runs through to the ac controls.
I've also been working on the timing, as well as doing my best to educate myself about the subject. I think my limited understanding of the matter has caused me to err on the side of conservatism. I still don't really understand it completely, but here is what I have so far.
Idling at about 850 rpm with vacuum advance unhooked and plugged I'm looking at 14 initial and 32 overall. All in by 1800 rpm
bumped that up to about 18 initial, 36 overall in by 2000. It seems to like this much better. I didn't notice any detonation, but I'm a little apprehensive because I'm not sure that I'd recognize pinging if I heard it.
Is it clearly audible? Can I detect it better by maybe holding a wooden dowel to the cylinder head and listening to it? It seems like it would like even more advance, but how much is too much? Is it like this because of the camshaft choice?
I didn't get it out to drive it yet, but I put my foot on the brake and started to push the gas pedal and the tires, or I guess I should say tire, broke free and started spinning with little effort. Before, it was all I could do to get those suckers spinning. This is getting closer to what I'd hoped to get from it. I'll mess with it a bit more and come back with more questions.
I appreciate you guy's continued help. It would be real easy to get frustrated and maybe give this engine building thing up if it weren't for guys who were willing to point me in the right direction when I encounter something that is beyond my knowledge base and definitely outside of my experience. I've spent my whole life making these cars pretty, it's time I learn to make them go.

MN71W30

Norm,
What about those soft head bolts on the V6 Ford?

88 coupe

They have nothing to do with this thread.

Norm

gmrocket

good god man, get the compression test done!

ijasond

I know, I know. I haven't had anyone to help me with that. Tried to do it by myself, I could see it on a few cylinders, but I need someone to crank it for me so I can see the gauge clearly. Hopefully I'll have that tonight or tomorrow.

ijasond

Do you think this is my problem?

MN71W30

No, I thought it was Norms thread.

Did you use a timing chain with 3 key way slots? It's a little confusing and I have made that mistake before. The keyway slot has a dot next to the keyway and on the outer edge. So there is 2 dots on the lower gear.
Also if the seconaries aren't working your car would have a huge HP loss. Check out the carb while it is running and wacth the action of the carb and make sure you have the cable adjusted to get full throttle with the gas pedal.
Dave

ijasond

Yes. We actually pulled the timing cover to double check and it's on straight up.

MN71W30

Can you take a video of the engine running? or while driving it and post it on Utube?

ijasond

I can probably do that. Anything in particular I should record or do with the engine in the video?

ijasond

Ok, it's done.
Did the first 3 cylinders down the left bank and realized that the adapter I was using was probably a bit long and therefor may not be seating al the way in, so I took it off and continued the test with the same results.
130-135 on all cylinders. Because of the adapter situation I went back and tested the first three again. This time #1 is reading 160. Ran #1 again, 165.
tested all of the other cylinders again. 130-135 on all, except #1.

ijasond

last time I took the plugs out they were all fairly black. I cleaned them, put them back in and adjusted the idle mixture. This is what i pulled out this time. From right to left - 1, 3, 5, 7, 2, 4, 6, 8.
#1, the cylinder with the high compression is the black one.

gmrocket

did you do the comp test with a warm engine, throttle wide open? did you watch the gauge&notice how fast the needle moved? if you did it right, that reading is horrible&thats why its a dog. the motor has a mechanical problem.

ijasond

I drove it a few miles right before the test. did it at WOT. It took 3 strokes to reach the highest reading.

MN71W30

My 71 engine with 8 to 1 compression has the same compression numbers. That seems strange that they're even except for #1. The video could show how smooth the idle is, also show pulling off the breather and or oil tube cap while it's running to check for blowby, how fast it revs up, also a shot of inside the car driving with the power on. Does the cars exhaust smell like fuel, like it burns yoour eyes? How old is the fuel? Did you dial in the cam, that may tell us something. Does it miss at higher rpm's? Did you ever try another carb? Did your lower timing chain gear have 3 slots for the keyways? You could still have the dots lined up and have it on the wrong keyway. I did it once years ago and bent a valve but I don't think it would run having the chain in the wrong keyway with the dots lined up.
Did you ever try moving the distributor to a more advanced position? maybe your light is defective. I'm reaching for anything and running out of suggestions.
Dave

ijasond

I think we've covered most of the stuff you mentioned. I've already admitted that I didn't degree the cam, just installed it dot to dot. It is a 3 key gear installed straight up. The timing is much better since I've gotten some help here with that and it runs/sounds good. Good oil pressure. No misses, good throttle response. I'll make a video and post it soon.
I'm just afraid with the compression numbers I just got that I'm going to be opening this thing back up to find out if the problem is in the machine work or the pistons I used that I don't have the specs on. I might just weekend cruise it until next spring. I can't afford to tear back into it right now. I know the machine shop is competent, but didn't verify the accuracy of their work. I would certainly like to know why I would I have compression so much lower on all but the #1 cylinder?

MN71W30

It's hard to say how much of a problem you really have. My 71 442 would be lucky to run low 14's in the 1/4 mile. How fast was the Ford you raced? I pulled up next to a S10 pickup last night that was in town for the Car Craft show and when he hit the gas the guy dissapeared like he was on Star Trec. I'm glad I didn't mess with him.
Maybe you should get a stop watch and time your 0-60 just to see where your really at. Or even a 20-70 if you can't get out of the hole without spinning.
Maybe drive it over to the place that did the machine work and see if he can be of any help. He wouldn't want an unhappy customer even if it may not be his fault because his name is on the engine. I'll bet he'll take a look.

captjim

In the initial post,
"Block was bored 40 over, stock compression pistons, heads rebuilt stock + hardened seats and SK-247-SP springs. Put in a JM-22-25-10 cam"

IMO, this is your problem. Big dish pistons short on compression height with a thick replacement head gasket making the Cr too low which means the cam is too big. I know you looked, but I would really try to find out which pistons are in it before tearing it apart.

ijasond

Takes about 9 seconds. Getting off the line without spinning the tires is NOT a problem. Getting the tires TO spin is the problem.

ijasond

I went by the shop of the guy who helped me assemble it today and I thought I got lucky and found the box with the old pistons in it, but turns out it was the box for the Ford 390 pistons I used in my buddy's car.

ijasond

Should I stick the stock cam back in and see how it runs? I still have no idea why I would have compression 130-135 on 7 cylinders and 165-170 on the one.

gmrocket

i wonder what norm would do?

ijasond

Norm would probably know what pistons he used in the build and therefore would be able to come to some sort of conclusion that he is unable to reach based on the limited amount of information I have produced here...

ijasond

Compression is low, but very consistent, with the exception of the number one cylinder which I believe to be higher because of the fuel being dumped in there. This also being why the plug from the #cylinder was the only one that was black. Does this make any sense??
Either way, I think it's time to tear it down and begin again. Oil pressure is now dropping to almost zero once the engine reaches operating temp. I checked the oil and it's got gas in it. Could this have worn my rings, bores causing the compression loss?
I think I've acquired enough information here to enable me to do it right this time. I always did learn better the hard way.

gmrocket

fuel wash on a fresh rebuild can cause skirt scuffing which could lock the rings up. you wont know until you take it apart. since you have no oil pressure, that should be soon before you make it not rebuildable. i would try to figure out why its dumping excess fuel while its still running.

captjim

Silly question, Dale, he would call up a "competent machinist"

ent72olds

Did the same with my 330 Vista...edelbrock to q-jet felt like an extra 25 hp!

MN71W30

Good point,
I remember a single plane Edelbrock torker robbing the low end power on an Olds 400.

gmrocket

i think they were talking the carb. if you have a tight converter&not much gear, the e brocs do tend to bog. its the air valve door flipping open to fast for the engine, its an easy fix to tune it back to where it with run without the hesitaton. e broc has an excellent tuning book that comes with their carbs&it goes through every tuning step in detail. you an email them&they will send you the complete manual in a file. i have a 750 on my car with a 403&when i had a tight factory 13 converter with 3:73's it initially did the hesitation. i tuned it out&it pulled great from a dead idle. then when i put in 4:56's and a 10 3500 converter it runs like a champ, 11.87 113+mph they are good carbs

MN71W30

Yes I know we were talking about the carb, I just wanted to throw it out there. The point you made about the carb opening and bog may be a contributing factor. The combination of an open plenum intake (if he has one) and an Edlebrock carb, 3.08 gears, tight converter and you probably will have some hole shot troubles.

ent72olds

This is turning into a very informative and interesting thread! It's amazing how much I've learned already! I'll be paying close attention as I'm considering putting a '66 Toro engine in my '65 Vista. I hope this one keeps rolling....

ijasond

Well, unfortunately I think this one is nearing it's end. I'm to the point where I just need to pull it out and tear it down. I've been going nuts trying to find the specs on the pistons, but no luck. I just hope I don't tear it down and find out that it's something that's going to cost me $$$ to correct. The build only has about 300 miles on it and I can't afford to spend a bunch to do it again. We'll see. Once I get it out, have the machine work checked, have the pistons and camshaft measured I'll start a new thread this time to make sure I do it right, not to find out what I did wrong.
I've learned alot also. Just wish I could have learned it BEFORE it put the engine together.
Cart, Horse??

ent72olds

Good luck, I hope it isn't major money! Would be nice to see photos of finished project. Thumbs up on the body, paint and wheels so far!

ijasond

Thanks. Body & paint I don't have a problem with. It's this engine stuff that's new to me. I do need to get some new pictures. With the exception of the upholstery & a/c plumbing it was pretty well finished. Now it's time to un-finish it and finish it one more time.

ijasond

I'm convinced that the problem is an internal mechanical one based on the results of the compression test so I am preparing to pull the engine & tear it down. I'm going to collect the tools I'm going to need that I don't currently have so that I can check things myself rather than blindly taking someone else's word for it. Is there anything else I should check BEFORE I pull it apart? Any information I could gather before hand? Or since we know that the compression is poor, should the next step be dis-assembly?

Also, I want to be prepared if it turns out the pistons are the source of the low compression. Where can I go to get the correct ones at a reasonable price? I see lots of 455 stuff on Jegs, Summit, etc, but nothing for the 425. If I have to drop $500 on new pistons, it's going to seriously hold up the project. I want to be prepared so I can have this thing out, built properly and back in in as little time as possible.