hey haddah question,,are the 394's considered bigblock or smallblock? besides looking at the exhaust manifolds,,thanks..

 

big blocks

 

It is neither in my book as there were no other block sizes available. Those years the block was the same size and just bores were different. There was no need to call one engine a BB and one a small block. They were simply a Rocket.

 

Since in '64, a 394 and 330 were offered (and then there's the 215 offered from '61-'63), I think its reasonable to refer to a 394 as a big block.

 

So what was the 394 considered in 1960?

Look, the reality is that there is no "legal" definition of big block and small block. I call them the first gen Olds V8. To confuse the issue even more, the BBO/SBO definition traditionally goes with deck height on the 64-90 motors, but the first gen family had THREE different deck heights.

In the same vein, the W-motor Chevies (348/409) are not considered to be either big or small blocks.

 

Not arguing "legalities", or trying to "confuse the issue more", just offering my circa A.D. 2010 opinion. There are plenty who consider Chevy 348s and 409s to be big blocks, by the way.

 

i figured i would ask it to make sure,,,the way i've always quickly identified a block wuz the exhuast manifolds on it bb/sb...other than actuall block size yea i kno different bores n things ='s different engine strength,,,i havent gotta chance to really go ovrr my olds yet...jus getting az much info on her right now so i kno wut im dealing with,,but all help and info is much appriciated dewds!! thanks.....and i will also b looking up #s off the car also,,

 

hahaa btw I LUV THE 409 ENGINES!! a.k.a. 'the W engine' hehe when i first seen one of thoz n my shop class (way bak n the day) i wuz like DEWD!!!!!!!! THATS DA SHIZZ!! hahaha...sum super old dewd wuz rebuilding it,,,nvr will furget kewl stuff!...

 

Nobody ever heard of tall deck and short deck engines?? The 394 is known as a tall deck

 

i may have kinda furgotta boutta'M or that frase,,,so tall deck means bb right?

 

It depends who is doing the "considering".

I always called mine a 394 because, at the time, I had never heard those terms applied to anything other than a Chev.

Computers and/or catalogs, at my local parts suppliers, do not have "big block" or "small block" listings. Without knowing the specific engine (307, 330, 350, 425, or 455) a counter person could not find the correct piston for my current project.

If you mention "big block" or "small block" to a random group of car guys, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who did not assume you meant a Chev engine. This is because, in addition to being physically larger than the 283/327/350, it is a completely different (the 396 was a revision of the 348) engine. The terms have also been used in reference to some Ford and Chrysler engine families for the same reason.

It was "considered" a 394, as opposed to a 303, 324, or 371.

In '64 they were called 330 and 394. In '65 they were called 330, 400, and 425.

When did the "tradition" start?

There was also a 427. The 9.6" deck heights were .200" shorter than the 396 that evolved from them.

Since there were three different 427 Chevs with three different (9.6", 9.8", and 10.2") deck heights, how should one determine which are "big" blocks, and which are "small" blocks?

As I said in my opening, it depends who is doing the "considering". In reality, the phrase did not exist until long after they were out of production.

Since both 371s and the 394 are taller than the 400/425/455 wouldn't that make the 455 a short deck? Following up on that logic, shouldn't we expect the 455 to be called a "small block"?

Forget all this BS and call it what it actually is: A 394.

Norm

 

yea pretty much like i said i always identified buy looking at the exhuast manifolds first (stock ones) headers r kinda hard to tell by but yea because all the boring n so fourth alotta ppl jus go crzy with b.s. and sum of them dnt kno wut thrr talk'n bout ,,,but fur me i have studied engines and how thrr built and go off of wut i really kno but if i dnt kno then i will let ppl kno,,,i dont guess,,,i have friends making up crap then i call them on it ,,,its hella funny,,but yea i miss the engines like 427 and 396 of the chevys,,,also the 351 cleveland enigne,,i thnk they stopped building the 'windsor tho' right?...they shud bring bak these enigines but upgraded jus a lil bit wud be kewl..well thanks fur the info these 394's r new to me i havent 'owned an olds' yet im finding out more bout my olds 98 everyday which i luv,,and i jus gotta 64 bonneville wagon a few days ago,,helping a friend clear out his grampas land,,and thrs like 15 old rides sitting,,so i snatched up the 64 olds 98,,the 64 bonneville,,and thrrs a few lincoln contenintalz thrr a 64 and 65,,all have been sitting fur i wud say 15-20 yrs....but complete and a few broken windows and flattend tires but thats it LOL cant wait to hear those enigines fire bak up...srry fur such a long post LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'll rephrase. In common usage, the short deck 64-90 motors are referred to as small blocks and the tall deck 65-76 motors are referred to as big blocks. Obviously these terms are used out of convenience, since in reality the differences between the SBO and BBO are more like the differences between the B and RB Chrysler motors.

In any case, even Olds saw enough of a difference between the BBO and SBO lines to use numbers for SBO castings and letters for BBO castings.

 

And I will rephrase: When did those references begin and/or become common?

Norm

 

What in the hell difference does it make when those terms came into common use? Completely irrelevant. The fact is they are common terms, be they misnomers or otherwise. How and when they became that way isn't going to change anything, and it's not going to somehow make you right and Joe wrong.

Jumpin' Jesus on a pogo stick you're a douche.

 

Pretty much for as long as I've been building Oldmobiles, which would be the early 1970s.

 

Will, if the engiens haven't been run for years you might consider removing the distributor and running the oil pump with a power drill. This will allow you to circulate fresh oil through the engine. Don't forget to do a full tune up too.

 

zup jessie..(olds64) yea i will do that deff believe me i wud nvr do a sudden start up on these rides when sitting that long,,haha...wud it hurt to fresh gas & new oil or idk jus to get'R to turn ovr n fire up fur like a few mins?...then fresh'n up the engine completely,,cap wires fluids etc...turns out the olds engine aparently ran and still runs strong but the tranny leaks fluild thats Y sheez been sitt'n fur ever,,,thats wut my friends grampa wuz telling me and as far as the 64 bonneville wagon she had a fuel fire or paticiall electrical fire but didnt toast too much,,i wuz checking the engine over and observing the wiring the engine bay needs sum work and i wud basically replace the enigne bay harness and run threw the enigine freshing it up,,,those r the future plans so far,,

 

Close enough. Thanks

Norm

 

Looks like we have a member who subscribes to the Alinsky method of communication.

Norm

 

i am sure there are exceptions but i was taught that an engine in stock form with a stroke that is longer than it's bore would be a big block and one with a stroke shorter than it's bore would be a small block. i was told that from an older retired machinist back in the 90s and then seen it again in a car craft magazine in the 90s. i am not saying it is right but what do you guys think.

 

No it doesn't work like that. If you change the crank so the stoke is increased it does add cid to the engine, but won't change what the engine is considered as far as bb or sb.

The problem with wrong info when its repeated people sometimes start believing it is fact.

I built Pontiac engines for years. I don't know how many people tried telling me I had a bb or sb Pontiac. Everyone of them was wrong. I stopped explaining how Pontiac engines are designed and are not bb or sb.

The most confused Pontiac engine for most uneducated people is the 400 Pontiac.

 

He would be wrong. I believe you are confusing the terms "undersquare" and "oversquare" with big block and small block. Consider that the 425 Olds had a bore larger than the stroke, but the 455 was the other way around.

 

I wanted to move on from this discussion, but keep getting the thread update E-mails (s'pose I could unsubscribe to the topic...). Anyway, having nothing better to do this afternoon (apparently), I performed a Google search, and found the following answer (perhaps from Joe P. himself?) that I think had previously done a nice job of summing things up.

from http://www.oldsmobility.com/67-Olds-FAQs/engine.htm (highlights mine):

All that said, I would point out that Wllz' car is a '64 Ninety-Eight. Starting in '64, Olds also produced the 330 (which most would refer to as a small-block). Thus if he or anyone else wanted to refer to his engine as being a "big block", no great harm would result to the space-time continuum. Worst case scenario is he'd risk being "corrected", but then than tends to be the inevitable result of engaging car guys in conversation.

Seriously, incorrect statements should be corrected. But I'm still calling the radio delete plate in my '65 Jetstar I a radio-delete plate, not a radio block-off plate, and would continue to do so, even if I removed it and sold it to a guy who installed it in his Dynamic 88.

 

Actually, I DID write that (though interestingly not for that website) - which just proves that a lie told twice is corroborated.

 

well mines the 394 when i pop'd the hood i thought it wuz the 455 cuz the air cleaner says rocket and i thnk high compression on thrr but i looked up the cars engine and it is a 394 in thrr and of course the help of some dewds on here also told me 394 i wanted to simple kno if these r big block engines or wut? i had a ford galaxy it had a 390 in it hauled and it wuz a big block i noticed it wuz because the exhuast mainfolds were evenly spaced out how big blocks R...and how small blocks have the two inner pipes close together thats how i always quickly identify an engine...but thats jus me....

 

If you mention "big block" or "small block" to a random group of car guys, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who did not assume you meant a Chev engine. This is because, in addition to being physically larger than the 283/327/350, it is a completely different (the 396 was a revision of the 348) engine. The terms have also been used in reference to some Ford and Chrysler engine families for the same reason.

The 396 was introduced in 1965 and was a completely new engine. The only thing it had in common with the 348 was the distributor cap. The 409 was a revision of the 348.

 

hehe yea hey redoldsman didnt u post this earlier? i member comenting on the 409 and 396 and how i wish they wud come bak with them,,,and the 'W engine' how awesome it is,,hahaha welp jus wonderd if u reposted it or i wuz jus go'n wacc ahaha,,,hey thrr any 64 olds 98's or 64 bonneville wagons fur sale or parts basically were ur at by chance? thanks dewd..

 

[QUOTE i noticed it wuz because the exhuast mainfolds were evenly spaced out how big blocks R...and how small blocks have the two inner pipes close together[/QUOTE]

Will, I recall thinking the same thing years ago. It is amazing how Chevy information fills up our heads.

 

lol yea it wuz wacc when i seen the 409 in shop class the dewd wuz rebuilding,,waz awesome!! 'W engines' wow! heehe..hey wait a thought jus pop'd into my head there wuz an article n 'hotrod mag' or mabye classic chevy i dont member but sum guys were either rebuilding or a company wuz actaually reproducing the engine jus recasting it from the original but newer style........i kno i read it sumwere hell i may even have the mag sumwere amoung my millons of hot rod mags hahahha ..hhmmm anyone else by chance kno wud im talk'n bout?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there were reproduction castings of old Chevy engines. All you have to do is check out Summit to find your Chevy parts:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-10105123/

For Oldsmobile guys we are stuck with what was manufactured in the past and a handful of aftermarket manufacturers.

 

That is just a function of the exhaust valve geometry on the two inner bank cylinders. The latest generation of Oldsmobile engines were not like that of course and it is most obvious if the engine has headers. Consider the old Flathead Ford engine built in the thirties through the fifties, they are the same way and often you see and engine with headers that only have three pipes because the center cylinders share one pipe.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...26tbs%3Disch:1

 

A big block is anything over 426 Cubic inch's and that is that. Small block is the 327 or less. The 350 is included as a small block by default. Everything else in between has no name they are just tweeners. Just my humble opinion.

 

So by your definition an Olds 400 motor is NOT a big block Olds? Neither is a 425 Olds? But a 455 IS a big block? Funny how the same intake manifolds fit all of them.

I'm sorry, but your description makes no sense. The whole purpose of the big block/small block distinction is to address the interchangeability of parts. In the case of Olds motors, big block parts (intake, headers, cranks) interchange. The equivalent small block parts do not. Olds motors are unique as compared to Chevy motors in that the BBO is really a tall deck SBO, so parts like cams and lifters do interchange.

And to get back to the original question, the first gen Olds V8s have similar deck height distinctions.

 

Of course the only ones that make any difference are the 307, 330, 350, 371, 394, 400, 403, 425, and 455. We don't care about anything else.

 

Yeah 100% opinion. That leaves out alot of engines. Some of the best engines would be tweeners with that statement.

Maybe we should just start calling them by engine size not bb or sb. That way everyone would be happy. Personally I don't care what people call them. As long as the guy at the auto part store sells me the right parts.

 

I've found that this can be a rare occurence at many auto parts stores, even when I know exactly what I want. Sometimes I think I might have better luck going into an auto parts store and speaking Bulgarian to order my parts.

 

Yeah I thought everyone could use a good laugh.

 

Perhaps it's age, or an excess of Chevy stuff in my head, but I don't remember big block/small block being discussed anywhere until Chevy offered the 400 c.i. "small block" at the same time as the 400 c.i. (402, actually) "big block."
After that, when we went to the dealership parts counter for 400 parts, we had to specify BB or SB.
DW

 

Interesting that you bring that up.

A delete plate would be used to replace a "standard equipment" radio that had been installed on the assembly line and was removed later.

A block off plate would have been installed at the factory, to cover the empty space where the "optional at extra cost" radio would have been installed.

You are certainly free to call a spade a diamond, if you wish, but it is not fair to mislead the new (and not so new) followers of the car hobby.


SBO = 9.330"
324 = 10.250"
371 = 10.375"
371/394 = 10.625"
BBO = 10.625"

Looks like I should remember to check my files before I post.


My memory agrees with yours. That is what prompted my question to Joe_P.

Both the 400" (actually 400") passenger car and the 400 (actually 396") truck engines were introduced at the same time the 402 inch 396 replaced the 396 inch 396.

Norm