Allan R

Not divergent at all Eric, that's one of the things I asked in permalink 30. Haven't heard anything back on it though...

MDchanic

Yes, but your suggestion, Allen, seemed (perhaps unintentionally) to imply that you were only referring to a choke that was missing ("bypassed") or stuck open, while mine, conversely, is explicit in envisioning a choke that is stuck closed.

Yours also uses the word "bimetallic," which, I would submit, might be a bit sophisticated for your intended audience. Of course, I just used the word "conversely..."

While on that subject, though:

Jonathan,
Do you have, either in hard copy, or on your computer (through WildAboutCars.com), a copy of your Chassis Service Manual?
It is highly unlikely that a coterie of nattering nabobs such as ourselves could teach you all of the technical knowledge and nomenclature that you need to know to be able to understand our suggestions, let alone to fix your car properly.
When I was your age [, son], I used to read technical manuals, parts manuals, and textbooks, which provided me with a pool of knowledge beyond the experience I had gained since my father had given me a carburetor as a 3-D puzzle when I was a toddler. By the time I was your age, he was asking me questions, such as whether a given part would fit, or what a given specification was .

I would strongly suggest that in addition to discussing your car with us here, you read your Chassis Service Manual.
I mean that.
Start at page 1-01, and just read it. Read all of the technical descriptions, including carburetor operation, carefully (they are simple and well written), and skim over all of the descriptions of how to take things apart and put them together. Look at all the pictures until you know what the descriptions are talking about.

When you're done, you'll understand what's going on here, and will have filled in the blanks that we, here, don't know are blank (the "unknown unknowns," as Don Rumsfeld would say).

Good luck!

Oh, and don't forget to do your homework first! You'd be amazed at how much of that stuff you wind up using later.

- Eric

oldcutlass

BTW there will be a test afterwards, so no sandbagging!

The neat thing is you will be reading about a series of things that will not make any sense at all. Then when you actually start to do some of the things mentioned in there, at some point all the things you read about will align with the sun, moon and stars, and a bright light will shine on you from the heavens. You will then slap your forehead with the palm of your right hand, and say.... holy crap, thats what they meant, and it will all make sense and come together!!!!!!

And so it goes, another car junky is born!!

Allan R

Correctamundo my friend.
From PL 20
The choke and choke tubes are the question mark I have about this too. Also if the vacuum dashpots are leaking vacuum. Now I'm wondering if the manual choke is stuck fully open?
Jonathan: Does your carb look like this? The arrow is pointing to the 'automatic' choke that has the 'bimetal' coil in it.

MDchanic

From a kid who says that identifying the intake manifold is like learning Chinese:
I would not put too much stock in his assessment of the function of the choke:
Can he even identify the choke, or tell whether it's open or closed, or know what position it's supposed to be in and when? How does he know it's a manual choke, and if it is, how do we know that he knows how to use it? And how do you know that his saying that it doesn't work doesn't mean that it's stuck shut instead of open?
He still hasn't done the compression test that several of us have told him is vital to move ahead any further.

As I said in Post #10, "More information = better diagnosis."
We still have no idea what's actually going on with this car.
For all we know, it's out of gas.

- Eric

Allan R

I just looked on the Oldsmobile map. There's no one registered in NM. In every state around this kid there are Olds guys. Can't believe there's no one in NM or closeby who can't spare an hour to help this kid with diagnosing his issue. Obviously doing it over the net isn't really going anywhere. He needs someone who knows about cars to help him.

Eric, if he thinks the manifold is like learning Chinese, doing a compression test must be as intimidating as a layman trying to do heart surgery. He needs someone there with some know how to teach him what to do. Reading it from a book may help, but I think he's in over his head right now. Maybe it's time for a time out till he gets himself sorted out. In our enthusiasm to help him, we may be scaring him away from his car.

MDchanic

I couldn't agree with you more.

- Eric

1971Cutlass

Hi
I already have the Chilton's manual for 1970-1988 Olds Cutlass.
I've put about $600 or so into the car, and I did get it for free... to me it kinda seems like a waste to just sell it. Not that I'm going to or anything, but how much do you think it's worth? I'm guessing around $1000?
ALLAN R: To me, the carburetor in the picture looks like any other 4 barrel carburetor. The one in mine is a qaudra-jet. so I don't think that is my carb...
I think i just might read the Chassis section in the manual. It's not out of gas! unless the gas gauge isn't working.
Thanks a lot for your help guys.

Allan R

Atta boy Jonathan!
Chiltons is really a condensed version of what you probably need to read. Ok, we know you have a QJ now. Disregard the pic of the 2GC. Seriously, clik on the link Eric provided for Wild About Cars. From there you can access the factory manual on your ride. It has a lot of good info and pics to help you along.
Didn't realize you had 600 into the car. What did you spend it on?
Yeah, once you start putting $$ into a car you kinda want to hold onto it and make a go of it. Don't ask me how I know this....
When you've got more info on the problem, we'll be waiting to hear what you've found.

MDchanic

Jonathan, not to sound like someone who's always got something negative to say (which I do), but the Chilton's manual is crap. It's better than nothing, and it's good to have a selection around for general tune-up specs and such, in case you drag home another car without any warning (you may have noticed that this happens sometimes), but it is nowhere as detailed or well written as the Chassis Service Manual.

It is well worth it to download the 1971 CSM from WildAboutCars. Tell me if you have FTP capability, and I may be able to help you out with some 1972 information.

Meanwhile, pull your plugs and let's have a look at them - line them up and take a clear picture - I bet they're all sooty and carbon fouled.

- Eric

Allan R

......Fix that car!

MDchanic

Where the 〷♒☭♠☿ did you get that picture of me ?!?

Allan R

Your wife sent it to me . Said she caught you on a "good" day...
Cool expletive BTW, what cursive (no pun intended) is it?

nonhog

Never trust a gas gauge on an old car, more so on one thats been sitting.
Google or you tube compression test. That might be helpful for you.
My recent issue with a car not starting thought it was low gas. Turned out the fuel pump was going out. Have you checked for gas looking into the carb while working the linkage? (not running of course)
If your getting gas and its got compression, I'd guess like others have already suggested t-chain slipped or ignition.
Got a timing light? Again google/you tube or better yet manual.

Good luck!

1971Cutlass

I signed up to crazyaboutcars.com as 1971Cutlass
Chilton is the only manual I know about, it was hard to find so in Jonathan's eyes, its gold.
I can't post a picture on this website. It's a retarded way to put a pic on your thread. do I have to post the pic on the internet to get the HTTP//?
I'm not that familiar with computers and I've never played a video game on an X-Box (the garbage) or whatever they call them so I don't know much here.
I forgot about the compression test...what parts do you need? How do you?
Thanks

Allan R

???? You mean Wild About Cars. I went to the site and checked to see. Yup, registered Dec 14. Now all you need to do is go to "the library". Then clik on downloadable factory manuals. It will open to all the brands. Clik on Oldsmobile, then 'Factory Service Manual" 1971 is your year. All the sections of the manual are listed as pdfs (protected document format) You can save them to your harddrive if you want. Once you start reading the GM CSM for your car, you will realize how inadequate the Chiltons guide really is.

No. clik into the 'go advanced tab' on the bottom of your post. It will open up a different posting box with options at the top. Choose the paper clip - that allows you to manage attachments. You can then browse your computer (my pictures or whatever) and select the pic you want o upload. Up to 5 pics per post. The C.O. site will automatically downsize pics that fall into a certain range so they can be attached to the thread. If the pic is way too big, it simply won't upload. You can help out getting pics onto the post by going into your pictures and downsizing them somewhat before selecting them to post here. It's really not that hard.

re: Compression test? Instead of trying to tell you, here is a video. It's for a 4cylinder honda, but the principles are the same. Use the same compression tester, just you don't have coils or fuel rails. Disconnect the coil/distributor so you don't get spark. Keep the spark plugs in exactly the same order as you took them out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_tbksFYhl4 Theres a short commercial at the beginning you can skip after 5 seconds.

MDchanic

Just to make it clear and simple -

Compression test:

1. Warm up engine.
2. Remove spark plugs.
3. Pull coil wire (just to be sure you don't get startled by sparking wires).
4. Screw compression tester into #1 spark plug hole.
5. Floor gas pedal, crank engine over until gauge won't go any higher (usually about 10-15 seconds).
6. Read gauge, write down number.
7. Repeat steps 4, 5, & 6 for each cylinder.
8. If there are any cylinders more than about 5-10# lower than the rest, squirt some oil in each one and repeat - write down new "wet" number next to the "dry" number.

Now you've got your compression numbers, and you can post them here and we can help you more.

- Eric

1971Cutlass

I'll try the compression test once the snow stops pouring!
I meant Wild about Cars.
Go advanced! I was wondering what that was...
Thanks

Allan R

You're getting snow? Hmm, must be those higher elevations. It will probably melt in a day or so. Looking forward to seeing what the results are from the CT

chrisneu68olds

Eric,
Been a while since I have done a compression test, but why floor the gas pedal?

I remember performing all of the steps, including the couple of squirts of oil into the cylinder to see if you get a compression increase...Maybe it has been too long since I have done one? Maybe you will remind me why and I will slap myself on the head...

Allan R

Typically you do that with a fuel injected car so it will go into 'flood mode'. I'm not sure, but I think the reason E said floor it is to get some 'sealing' with the unspent fuel to check a partial wet compression. I've done CTs mostly in 2 stages. 2 rounds of dry, followed by 2 rounds of wet. IMO it gives a better comparison - just takes a lot longer on a V8.

chrisneu68olds

Maybe that is where I got lost. I never did that in a fuel injected car simply because I didn't have fuel injection back then. I was thinking that maybe having some fuel in there might seal things up a little similar to oil, I just didn't think the volume of fuel or the viscosity of gasoline would be enough to impact compression in a measurable way...but then...what do I know?

I'm just here to learn things too...

"The only stupid question is the one question you don't ask." - Anon.

Allan R

I'm just guessing at what E meant. I'm sure he'll set us straight, shortly. Yeah on FI, you unplug the coil packs so you don't get spark. Different setup that a carb. Don't feel bad, I wouldn't have known about that either. That's the value of this site. When I need help I'm not shy about posting for info. Sometimes though I feel like I should put it under the title of "How do I?..... - for dummies"

chrisneu68olds

I get disconnecting the coil pack on FI and removing the coil wire (on the coil side, not distributor side) on a car with a carburetor, and even your hypothesis of dumping fuel directly into the cylinder via a direct injection of fuel into the cylinder vs. a carburetor, a very indirect injection of fuel, is a reasonable argument at least on the surface. That sort of makes sense for a FI motor, I just didn't connect the dots, but I can see that the volume of fuel going directly into the cylinder could impact compression. I suppose that if you crank long enough I can see how you might get enough volume in the cylinder of a carbureted car you might get the same possible increase in compression. I would like to hear Eric's rationale.

There is a lot of great information on here almost every day and that is why I read CO on an almost daily basis. I have not even purchased my Olds for a restore yet and I have learned a lot and been reminded of things that I had not thought about in years.

Dummies? No.
DOH's! Occasionally.
Educational? Right or wrong...Always.

I don't know much, but I do know that I would not have a lit cigarette around all that vaporized fuel.

Allan R

Continued learning and info sharing is what it's all about. I like the way you think. Hope you find 'the project' sooner than later. Maybe 'Santa' will deliver?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

chrisneu68olds

Thanks you too. Not sure how the jolly old elf is going to get a 67 442 under my tree, but the driveway would be fine too.

MDchanic

Holy cow!

Walk away from the computer for a few hours and look what happens!

Sorry, guys, but the reason for holding the pedal down during a compression test has nothing to do with fuel flow - by definition, with all the plugs out, there is essentially no fuel flow, because that one cylinder with the gauge on it can't pull enough volume to pull any fuel out of the float bowl. For that reason, you can't hurt anything by holding the pedal to the floor.

The reason for holding the pedal down is simple physics, which you know from your own observations when working on your cars:
When the throttle plates are closed, the intake manifold is essentially sealed against outside air, as evidenced by the fact that a running engine will pull a vacuum at idle (even more on a downhill, as the engine is turning faster).
If you're trying to see how much compression the cylinder develops, you need air to compress, and pulling against a vacuum will not provide much air to the cylinder.
Therefore, you open the throttle plates, breaking the potential vacuum, and open up the intake valves to air at full atmospheric pressure, so you can get an accurate measurement of compression.

Remember, the only time that the cylinder actually sees fresh mixture at atmospheric pressure is with the pedal floored and the vacuum at zero - all other times, the cylinder is inhaling gas at a lower pressure than the air, which is to say that every cylinder starts out at a partial vacuum when the intake alve closes, which is why average running combustion chamber pressures and temperatures are well below the engine's capacity, and why spark propagation characteristics are different at different throttle positions (spark advanced at part-throttle because the spark takes longer to travel through low pressure, retarded at WOT because it travels faster through high pressure gas).

If you don't hold the throttle open during a compression test, the test will be inaccurate.

Are you paying attention, Jonathan?

- Eric

chrisneu68olds

Now that is an explanation!

Going with my gut something in the back of my mind said, 'something having to do with vacuum or balancing the pressure in the motor maybe?' but I nixed it in my head thinking 'well silly, there is no vacuum in a motor that's not running,' so I put it out of my mind. So I was in error and didn't think it thru completely because there is some vacuum in a turning motor...just didn't connect the dots....

Now, when you say 'inaccurate' do you mean grossly inaccurate like 10%+ off reading or are we talking about a relatively small inaccuracy like <5%?

Thanks Eric. That is what I was looking for! You da man!!

MDchanic

Oh, it could be WAY inaccurate.

If your throttle plates seal pretty well, it could take a LONG time for that cylinder to suck in enough air to pump into that gauge, and it might actually never be able to fully do it, even if you cranked it for half an hour.

In any gas engine, compression test results without the throttle open are essentially invalid.

Now, diesels, which have no throttle plates, are another story...

- Eric

chrisneu68olds

@Eric: Good to know. I had to read it twice to get it completely, but it makes total sense. I will put that piece of information in the remember that detail file. I still don't recall doing opening to WOT, but it has been a LONG time since I have done a compression test. I think that I might go out and get a compression gauge and try it out on my Honda for grins.

@1971Cutlass: Sorry if this part of the string might have made your head spin, but that is how we all learn something new. Just follow the steps that Eric put out there.
The paragraphs Eric wrote about the physics of vacuum in a motor is not really important for you to fully understand now but it may come in handy later on. I was where you are at your age and as you can see we all can learn something. I am in my 40's, not new to a wrench, so if I can do this, you can.
Many a wrench/ratchet/hammer/curse has been thrown across the yard/garage/parking lot in frustration by me and others. (I thrashed a new Moroso chrome air breather with a tire iron in a fit of rage because of a wiring issue in my '71. I was 16 and a bit hot-headed then and I don't suggest that method of venting.) Rest assured, we all fell your pain. When you have been reduced to cussing and having conversations with at an inanimate object (for example a 1971 Cutlass, been there, done that) it's time to take a break, but don't give up!

Let everyone know how it turned out.

Allan R

Ditto.
Eric, so 2 CTs would be better? 1 dry and 1 wet? Compare the differences and also the bleed down?

MDchanic

The bleed down or leak down test is another thing.
That's where you leave all the spark plugs IN, and test to see how well each cylinder holds air (as opposed to how much pressure it can generate).
There are commercial leak down testers (Harbor Freight's got one for $35), or you can make one by plumbing together a pressure regulator and a gauge. You can also do a quick and dirty version by just blowing air into a cylinder with a spark plug air chuck adapter and listening to see where the air comes out - It's supposed to blow by the rings, so if the valves are closed and it comes through a valve, you know where you stand.

While in a compression test, you turn the engine over with the starter motor, in a leak down test, you set the cylinder you're testing around TDC with the valves closed and leave it there.
You screw the leak down tester into the spark plug hole, like you do with the compression tester, and then you introduce regulated air pressure at a regulated flow rate into the cylinder and read the percent leakage off of a pressure gauge.

You can do the wet test on every cylinder if you want, but usually you only do it on a cylinder that seems to be reading low on the dry test. If the rings are bad, the wet test should bring the pressure on that cylinder up to about where the rest of them are, but if it's a valve or a hole in the piston, it won't.

Using both tests, you can get a decent idea of what you need to fix before you start taking things apart.

- Eric

[/threadjack]

Allan R

What?^^^ I thought you were on topic for this thread since we were still talking about CTs and related info that would help the OP??

1971Cutlass

I live in Rio Rancho, which in the past snowstorms, we've gotten about a foot of snow!! Another is coming through Thursday through Friday. I think in elevation, were at 6500 feet above sea level or something...
Oh yes, I forgot to mention to MDCHANIC: The car doesn't start. When I try to do it more, it just sounds like I'm flooding the engine. and its not going "CLIK CLIK" so the Battery is not out. This car does not have a Tachometer so I can't rev it knowing how many rotations per minute is happening. (RPM)
I need to GIT It Goin!

Allan R

Ok,
1. Does the engine crank normally but not start?
2. Have you checked to see if the coil wire is properly attached to the coil and distributor?
3. Are you pumping the gas or holding it down? The GM cold start procedure is to hold your foot right down on the gas if it won't start normally.
4. Wondering if your float may be stuck or hung up. Have you tried gently tapping the front of the carb with the handle end of a screwdriver?
5. If you take off the air cleaner and pour a small shot of gas into the carb, will it fire the car?

If you can answer these questions it will be a lot easier. BTW, MDchanic will tell you this too. You can still do the compression test even if the car won't start. You don't want it to be running when you test the compression, ok? The things I suggested were some basic things I would check if my car wouldn't start. I know someone said this before but it's worth saying again. You have got fresh gas in that car? If it's old skunky gas it will be really hard to start and won't run worth *****.

MDchanic

Yup.

... And check your plugs - if you ARE getting gas (which we don't know yet), and it's not sparking, or the gas is no good, or it's just flooded (stuck float, closed choke), your plugs may be fouled and need to be cleaned (okay, or replaced if you're a big spender) before they'll spark again.

- Eric

Allan R

Eric, he replaced his plugs 10 miles ago - that's what he posted on p1 of this thread. I suppose if he pulled them again it would likely show if he has fouling one way or another. Wondering if he might have a plugged or partially plugged fuel filter too. No way of knowing how long it's been in there. I would prefer he went through the 5 suggestions I posted before checking the filter though. (especially point number 5) Your thoughts?

MDchanic

Whoops. That was so long ago I forgot.

Yeah, I agree with your suggestions. I'd say basically the same thing to anyone:

• Pull a plug, look to see if it's carbon or oil fouled.
• If fouled, pull all other plugs and clean or replace, then reassemble, except for one.
• Connect the wire to that plug, rest on a good conspicuous spot, and crank engine - look at spark. Should be bright white / maybe a bit blue, no orange or yellow at all.
• If spark is good, replace plug, pour an ounce or two of fresh gas down the carb and see if it starts. This also lets you see whether the choke is working right.
• If nothing, or it just coughs, check dwell and timing.
• If you've still got nothing, consider:
  • Spark not as good as you think - bad coil, bad condenser, resistor wire hooked up to HEI, very leaky spark plug wires, very bad cap or rotor.
  • Something in the way in the intake manifold - mouse or insect nests? Rags? Who knows?
  • Bad compression - check compression.

Anyone else got anything to add for "engine won't start at all" advice?
This list is for "doesn't start" only - it does not even get to "doesn't run," or "runs badly."

As for tapping the float bowl to release a stuck float, or a clogged filter, I agree, but I think we're not up to that yet - if the float is somewhat stuck, it should at least start and run for a few seconds with fuel poured into the carb.

- Eric

1971Cutlass

Yep. The engine cranks normally, it just doesn't start.
Sorry, mechanics aren't in my field, how do I check the coil and what does it do?
Pushing the gas when trying to start, didn't work. It use to, I don't know why.
I haven't tried tapping something on the carburetor to loosen the float.
I'll try.
I have not tried to dump gas down the carb, forgot about that. (That's how the cutlass got here)
Yes, the gas got pumped out, (by hand) until it was empty. It looked to be more yellow than anything else...
The car runs, and more than never, it cuts out. It just runs like junk right now.(When it starts(gasp)!)

Allan R

Welcome back, hope your holiday season was fun!
Coil: it looks like this pic I borrowed from 2blu442
P1010038-1.jpg

Since you're saying there's no 'spark' check to see if the coil wire is hooked up to both the coil and the middle connector of the distributor cap. If you were playing with the points adjustment you might have knocked the wire loose enough to make a difference. The coil is what provides the spark your engine needs to fire the cylinders. It sends a pulse of energy through the rotor as it rotates to each of the contact points in the distributor.
Suggestion: take off the distributor cap and look at the end of the rotor and if there's corrosion in the contacts inside the cap. If there is, that might be part of the problem. If your cap and rotor are corroded, get replacements. They're not expensive. If it's clean and the wires are on solid? go to this next steps which I think are more in line with solving your problem

You said the car used to fire with gas poured into the carb? Try it again. If it fires up and then dies you have a problem with fuel not flowing through the carb. It's just burning the 'primer' you're pouring into it.

Step 1. You need 2 wrenches. Undo the housing for the fuel filter on the front of the carb. Make sure you hold both the flare nut and the fuel filter bowl with the wrenches to avoid twisting the fuel line. Check to see if the filter is plugged with debris or turned around the wrong way. These old filters should be about 2" long and have one open end, and one capped off end. The open end always goes to the front. If it's backwards it will restrict fuel.

while you have the filter out, crank the engine over once or twice. This will let you see if gas is being pumped to the carb. If it is, that's a good sign. It means your fuel pump is working and the lines from the tank aren't plugged. Install a new filter, reprime the engine and see if it goes. If it still won't run, you might need to adust the float in the carb, or have it rebuilt. sounds like your grampa is handy with stuff like this and could help you do that.

Step 2. If there's no fuel flow when you crank the engine a couple times? You might have a defective fuel pump. They aren't hard to remove or install. Just remember that they're spring loaded and sit on an "eccentric' inside the block. That's how the pump gets its up/down movement on the pressure tang. A fuel pump looks like this:


The part on the right goes inside the engine and is moved by the cam. The outside part is where your fuel lines hook up. This one is just a pic I downloaded, yours make look similar. It comes with a gasket to seal against the side of the block.

If the fuel still won't flow with a new fuel pump, you will need to probably look at blowing out the fuel lines. Lets take it one step at a time though. Can you check these things and get back to us?