1970 442 Restoration
January 21st, 2016, 02:59 PM
#1
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1970 442 Restoration
OK, so I bought what I thought was a solid car and planned on finishing a restoration that had already been started by the previous owner. Had I known then what little I know now, I would have closed the trailer door and started the 8 hour drive back home. I'll share with you my experience and stupidity on my part and then I'll post a bunch of pictures of the car as I bought it and as it sits today.
The car had been for sale for some time and I was told it must be because of the remote location in which he resided. He said he had a deposit from another guy but if I wanted it, he would sell it to me. I traveled 8 hours to his house and checked out the car. I told him that I was going to purchase the car at the price we agreed upon as long as it looked as good as it did in the pictures he sent. I was on a tight schedule and asked him to have everything ready so I could load it in the trailer and head back home. It took two hours to locate all the parts and things were missing that he said he had. To my untrained eye the car seemed pretty nice, sounded and ran strong. The shifter linkage fell apart on the test drive and I was never given the opportunity to actually drive the car myself. We did the deal and off I went with a promise from him to ship some missing parts to me which never happened. He told me his intentions for the car were to make it a W-30 clone. He had the engine built by a "professional" builder to W-30 specs complete with an OEM W455 manifold, OAI set up and F heads. The block and trans were not numbers matching but date code correct. I was told there was less than 500 miles on the engine, which I believed because the car really wasn't totally assembled. He never represented the F heads as real and it turned out they were E heads with the bottom leg of the E ground off. He repeatedly told me the car was stripped to bare metal and a couple of quarter sized holes were cut out and patched with metal. He said he spent hours block sanding the primed body and that it was ready for finished paint. I noticed some slight blistering on the car but figured it just needed a little more finish sanding. Keep this in mind when you see the pictures later. When I brought the car back to my shop I wanted to drive it before I started tearing into it. I pulled the wheels to check the brakes and discovered they were wiped out. His ad said that the brakes were brand new. . I had the rotors and drums turned, replaced the pads,shoes, calipers, wheel cylinders, master cylinder and one brake line. His ad also said that the body was off the frame and that all the body mount bushings had been replaced. I found two that were missing and two that were not the right size. Buyer beware definitely applied to the purchase of this car. So moving forward I fixed a bunch of crap and was getting to the point where I was going to have a body shop guy (which at the time I barely knew but now we are good buddies) figure out the story on the paint and body work. He wanted me to drive the car to his shop so I put the car together enough to drive it. The engine ran strong but the idle was all over the place. I messed around with it and tried some advice that was offered from members of this forum. Nothing I did seemed to work so the body shop guy said he would look at it when I got it over there. He's an Olds guy from way back with two 69 442's in his stable. As soon as I pulled up to his lot he said "something ain't right with that olds motor". He ran some diagnostic test and tried several things before he told me it would be better to pull the top end a part and see what is really going on. I agreed and the diagnosis was not good. Basically the motor had so much compression and the valve train was so messed up that the motor in his words was grenading from the inside out. I'll post some pics of the bent push rods, chewed up rockers, spun bearings and connecting rods later. So, now, not only do I need paint and body work but a new motor to boot.
I'll have to continue this later...I have to do a little job tonight to add to the rebuild fund. Please don't think that I'm whining about this whole ordeal. I'm just sharing with you the back story and suprisingly enough it's taking a little load off by chest. To be continued....
Rick
The car had been for sale for some time and I was told it must be because of the remote location in which he resided. He said he had a deposit from another guy but if I wanted it, he would sell it to me. I traveled 8 hours to his house and checked out the car. I told him that I was going to purchase the car at the price we agreed upon as long as it looked as good as it did in the pictures he sent. I was on a tight schedule and asked him to have everything ready so I could load it in the trailer and head back home. It took two hours to locate all the parts and things were missing that he said he had. To my untrained eye the car seemed pretty nice, sounded and ran strong. The shifter linkage fell apart on the test drive and I was never given the opportunity to actually drive the car myself. We did the deal and off I went with a promise from him to ship some missing parts to me which never happened. He told me his intentions for the car were to make it a W-30 clone. He had the engine built by a "professional" builder to W-30 specs complete with an OEM W455 manifold, OAI set up and F heads. The block and trans were not numbers matching but date code correct. I was told there was less than 500 miles on the engine, which I believed because the car really wasn't totally assembled. He never represented the F heads as real and it turned out they were E heads with the bottom leg of the E ground off. He repeatedly told me the car was stripped to bare metal and a couple of quarter sized holes were cut out and patched with metal. He said he spent hours block sanding the primed body and that it was ready for finished paint. I noticed some slight blistering on the car but figured it just needed a little more finish sanding. Keep this in mind when you see the pictures later. When I brought the car back to my shop I wanted to drive it before I started tearing into it. I pulled the wheels to check the brakes and discovered they were wiped out. His ad said that the brakes were brand new. . I had the rotors and drums turned, replaced the pads,shoes, calipers, wheel cylinders, master cylinder and one brake line. His ad also said that the body was off the frame and that all the body mount bushings had been replaced. I found two that were missing and two that were not the right size. Buyer beware definitely applied to the purchase of this car. So moving forward I fixed a bunch of crap and was getting to the point where I was going to have a body shop guy (which at the time I barely knew but now we are good buddies) figure out the story on the paint and body work. He wanted me to drive the car to his shop so I put the car together enough to drive it. The engine ran strong but the idle was all over the place. I messed around with it and tried some advice that was offered from members of this forum. Nothing I did seemed to work so the body shop guy said he would look at it when I got it over there. He's an Olds guy from way back with two 69 442's in his stable. As soon as I pulled up to his lot he said "something ain't right with that olds motor". He ran some diagnostic test and tried several things before he told me it would be better to pull the top end a part and see what is really going on. I agreed and the diagnosis was not good. Basically the motor had so much compression and the valve train was so messed up that the motor in his words was grenading from the inside out. I'll post some pics of the bent push rods, chewed up rockers, spun bearings and connecting rods later. So, now, not only do I need paint and body work but a new motor to boot.
I'll have to continue this later...I have to do a little job tonight to add to the rebuild fund. Please don't think that I'm whining about this whole ordeal. I'm just sharing with you the back story and suprisingly enough it's taking a little load off by chest. To be continued....
Rick
January 21st, 2016, 03:57 PM
#2
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Group therapy. That's what we're all here for.
I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I'm not trying to preach, but I would've turned tail when he showed how much integrity he has:
I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I'm not trying to preach, but I would've turned tail when he showed how much integrity he has:
January 21st, 2016, 06:26 PM
#5
Sorry to hear of your predicament, but thanks for sharing. If this thread makes one other guy think twice before buying a car without a detailed inspection it is a great service you will doing for the rest of us. Please keep the details coming.
January 21st, 2016, 06:50 PM
#6
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I asked him several times about the deposit. He said the guy wouldn't return his calls. That doesn't make sense unless the guy fell on bad health or passed away. I'm curious whatever happened to the deposit. Maybe it was just a selling tactic to make me feel like he had an interested buyer on the hook.
Rick
January 21st, 2016, 06:52 PM
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January 21st, 2016, 07:05 PM
#8
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Here's what he called new brakes.
New body mounts that don't exist.
The clutch was new. To bad he used the wrong flywheel bolt and they rubbed on the springs.
Replacement flywheel to replace the one that had teeth missing.
More to come.....
Rick
New body mounts that don't exist.
The clutch was new. To bad he used the wrong flywheel bolt and they rubbed on the springs.
Replacement flywheel to replace the one that had teeth missing.
More to come.....
Rick
January 21st, 2016, 07:22 PM
#9
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It's pretty embarrassing that I was taken this bad. The money aspect sucks but at least when its all said and done I'll have something to show for it, unlike my retirement fund.
Your point about making others aware is right on track. I don't mind being the poster child for bad car transactions if it brings awareness to others.
Thanks for your comments. I've seen your handy work in person (which is awesome) and respect your input.
Rick
January 21st, 2016, 07:41 PM
#10
Sammy70 455 Supreme
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X2. Reminds me of a guy who wanted a part off a car that I had already sold and was waiting to be picked up by the new owner .....the buyer would never know he said.....I told him to leave my yard and never return....hope it all works out for you
January 22nd, 2016, 03:45 AM
#11
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I hope you did not pay more than $5-6k for that car.
When I started out in this hobby more than 30 years ago, I made a similar purchase.
The emotion of buying the car overcomes your objectivity.
With that lesson learned, I have operated on this advice:
"Buy the best car you can afford up front. It is much cheaper in the long run"
When I started out in this hobby more than 30 years ago, I made a similar purchase.
The emotion of buying the car overcomes your objectivity.
With that lesson learned, I have operated on this advice:
"Buy the best car you can afford up front. It is much cheaper in the long run"
January 22nd, 2016, 09:46 AM
#12
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Original advertisement
I hope you did not pay more than $5-6k for that car.
When I started out in this hobby more than 30 years ago, I made a similar purchase.
The emotion of buying the car overcomes your objectivity.
With that lesson learned, I have operated on this advice:
"Buy the best car you can afford up front. It is much cheaper in the long run"
When I started out in this hobby more than 30 years ago, I made a similar purchase.
The emotion of buying the car overcomes your objectivity.
With that lesson learned, I have operated on this advice:
"Buy the best car you can afford up front. It is much cheaper in the long run"
This is the ad for the car minus the seller contact info.
"1970 442, I took the frame off the body replaced everything, bushings, springs, shocks, brakes, drums, and a-frame. car has new tires, engine, and trans M-21. Car is a four speed with 342 positraction. Car is in primer and has been block and ready to paint, I have all the paint and clear for the car. I have rechromed both bumpers. Floors, trunk great shape and original. I have a 70 W-30 intake and red inner fenders that go with the car. I have a ton of money and time invested kid starting collage. $16,500 OBO I can also have car painted for an additional cost."
You are spot on with the emotional side of the sale. Your advise is well received.
My initial offer was $8,500. He countered and we ended up agreeing on $13.5k.
(Never said I was a good negotiator.) Keep in mind I thought all this stuff he advertised was true and I was OK putting an interior in, having it painted and finding a hood for it. It came with an OEM W-25 hood put it was pretty much garbage. I did end up selling it for $250 I think. He knocked a few hundred more dollars off because his body guy ruined the dash pad by laying on a nice thick coat of high gloss paint. Once I seen the car in person I told him I would give him $12k. He did the old talk to the wife routine and said notta. He knew he had me since I had money already invested in a rental trailer, fuel and lodging. The truck I borrowed from my buddy got a whopping 8-10 miles a gallon. I think I spent about $400 in fuel,$160 for the trailer rental, $150 for a motel and $100 between me and my son eating some crappy fast food. White knuckled the last 50 miles home through a high wind snow storm...(That may have been a sign)
Obviously I now know I paid way more than I should of but that's behind me now. I can honestly say I will never get taken that bad again.,,,never!
Moving forward >
Rick
January 22nd, 2016, 01:08 PM
#13
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just keep your eye on the prize, when the car is done it will be awesome. love the 4 speed
Like you i show up ready to rock and roll trailer et all, but i have turned around and cut my losses when i have to, particularly if the description deviates from the actual.....
Like you i show up ready to rock and roll trailer et all, but i have turned around and cut my losses when i have to, particularly if the description deviates from the actual.....
January 22nd, 2016, 01:39 PM
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Here lies the conundrum:
IF you can perform ALL of the work yourself, and just invest your money in parts and materials, you MAY not go upside down too badly.
However, walk thru the cost of restoration, system by system:
Engine - $5,000
Trans/Clutch - $2,000
Suspension/Brakes/Tires - $2,000
Wiring - $1,000
Bumpers/Trim - $1,500
Cooling - $500
Interior - $3,000
Exhaust - $500
Paint/Body - Minimum of $10,000
Odds and Ends - $3,000
The list is at $28,000....and that may be conservative.
My point is it is better to buy a nice driver for more money, and you would have to put less into it to make it nice AND have some equity. Plus, it would cost you less in total.
You will probably end up spending $35,000 to $40,000 making that car really nice.
If it were a W car with paperwork, you did good....otherwise, not so much.
IF you can perform ALL of the work yourself, and just invest your money in parts and materials, you MAY not go upside down too badly.
However, walk thru the cost of restoration, system by system:
Engine - $5,000
Trans/Clutch - $2,000
Suspension/Brakes/Tires - $2,000
Wiring - $1,000
Bumpers/Trim - $1,500
Cooling - $500
Interior - $3,000
Exhaust - $500
Paint/Body - Minimum of $10,000
Odds and Ends - $3,000
The list is at $28,000....and that may be conservative.
My point is it is better to buy a nice driver for more money, and you would have to put less into it to make it nice AND have some equity. Plus, it would cost you less in total.
You will probably end up spending $35,000 to $40,000 making that car really nice.
If it were a W car with paperwork, you did good....otherwise, not so much.
January 22nd, 2016, 02:55 PM
#15
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Here lies the conundrum:
IF you can perform ALL of the work yourself, and just invest your money in parts and materials, you MAY not go upside down too badly.
However, walk thru the cost of restoration, system by system:
Engine - $5,000
Trans/Clutch - $2,000
Suspension/Brakes/Tires - $2,000
Wiring - $1,000
Bumpers/Trim - $1,500
Cooling - $500
Interior - $3,000
Exhaust - $500
Paint/Body - Minimum of $10,000
Odds and Ends - $3,000
The list is at $28,000....and that may be conservative.
My point is it is better to buy a nice driver for more money, and you would have to put less into it to make it nice AND have some equity. Plus, it would cost you less in total.
You will probably end up spending $35,000 to $40,000 making that car really nice.
If it were a W car with paperwork, you did good....otherwise, not so much.
IF you can perform ALL of the work yourself, and just invest your money in parts and materials, you MAY not go upside down too badly.
However, walk thru the cost of restoration, system by system:
Engine - $5,000
Trans/Clutch - $2,000
Suspension/Brakes/Tires - $2,000
Wiring - $1,000
Bumpers/Trim - $1,500
Cooling - $500
Interior - $3,000
Exhaust - $500
Paint/Body - Minimum of $10,000
Odds and Ends - $3,000
The list is at $28,000....and that may be conservative.
My point is it is better to buy a nice driver for more money, and you would have to put less into it to make it nice AND have some equity. Plus, it would cost you less in total.
You will probably end up spending $35,000 to $40,000 making that car really nice.
If it were a W car with paperwork, you did good....otherwise, not so much.
This thread is a story of sorts as to what I've been through so far and where I'm going with the car. I should have started it when I purchased the car but now I'm just going to recap and get everyone up to speed. I'll try to give updates as things progress.
Rick
January 22nd, 2016, 03:00 PM
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January 22nd, 2016, 04:58 PM
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Random pics of progress over the last year.
Not all these are good progress. The engine and rocker pics are the start of discovering how screwed up the engine was.
I'll try to be a little more organized with the pictures.
edit...Tim Murphy (96442murph) did the upholstery....Top notch restorer of these Oldsmobiles and others.
Not all these are good progress. The engine and rocker pics are the start of discovering how screwed up the engine was.
I'll try to be a little more organized with the pictures.
edit...Tim Murphy (96442murph) did the upholstery....Top notch restorer of these Oldsmobiles and others.
Last edited by Cincinnati Rick; January 23rd, 2016 at 07:29 AM.
January 22nd, 2016, 05:39 PM
#18
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It is so frustrating when someone is that dishonest. These cars are so much fun to build and enjoy. I really hope getting it off your chest has been a therapy of sorts and you are now enjoying what the car is becoming. I have a 70 442 we will be starting the process on later this year and for me there was no promises and it needs all you are doing. But, I knew that going into it. I am looking forward to getting it there.
This kind of stuff and the shops that take advantage of people really gets to me. Shake it off as much as possible and enjoy and be proud of what you are building now.
Keep the pictures of the great work coming.
I bought my car from 2blu442 on here John is a great guy and was totally up front with me about the car I bought. That is how it should always be. I have also sold many cars and parts to many on here. It all comes out in the wash so best just be honest.
Larry
This kind of stuff and the shops that take advantage of people really gets to me. Shake it off as much as possible and enjoy and be proud of what you are building now.
Keep the pictures of the great work coming.
I bought my car from 2blu442 on here John is a great guy and was totally up front with me about the car I bought. That is how it should always be. I have also sold many cars and parts to many on here. It all comes out in the wash so best just be honest.
Larry
January 22nd, 2016, 06:48 PM
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New Heads and more
Bought some refurbished E heads from Mondellos. I know hisss, hiss. The guy that built the motor said they were worth every penny.
My buddy sold me an uncut F block, crank and connecting rods for $200. He basically gave them to me right? I Ordered a new timing chain set, oil pump, Engle JM-22 cam and all the gaskets, etc. A low mileage water pump was donated as well as a cast iron intake. Thanks to Tim Murphy, a CO member for the intake.
Rick
My buddy sold me an uncut F block, crank and connecting rods for $200. He basically gave them to me right? I Ordered a new timing chain set, oil pump, Engle JM-22 cam and all the gaskets, etc. A low mileage water pump was donated as well as a cast iron intake. Thanks to Tim Murphy, a CO member for the intake.
Rick
January 23rd, 2016, 05:07 AM
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There's definetly other things that were/are wrong with the car caused by the p.o. taking short cuts. Everything will be addressed and I will have a nice street car in the end.
Thanks for following along.
Rick
January 23rd, 2016, 08:09 AM
#24
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I wish you the best on your project.
Take your time, do things right, and you will get there.
If you get discouraged, walk away until you get your energy back.
Car restoration is a journey, and you need to enjoy every step.
If you need any help, please reach out.
Take your time, do things right, and you will get there.
If you get discouraged, walk away until you get your energy back.
Car restoration is a journey, and you need to enjoy every step.
If you need any help, please reach out.
January 23rd, 2016, 08:39 AM
#25
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January 23rd, 2016, 08:51 AM
#26
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1970 442 twilight blue, white vinyl top, black bucket console interior with dual gate, cruise control, AC, defroster, hood lock, light package (rearview mirror & trunk) and power trunk release. Numbers matching engine , transmission and a posi rear end - the car had SS1s with trim rings which looked original to the car but I swapped them out for 5 SSII rims and tires instead. I had Steve Minore look it over for me - I'm hoping to find some paperwork on top of the gas tank when I go to drop it otherwise I have no factory documentation.
January 23rd, 2016, 04:52 PM
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Rick
January 23rd, 2016, 07:37 PM
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Here are some pics as the car was stripped. There were places that the primer was painted right over rust. Holes were filled with Bondo instead of metal. All kinds of fun stuff. The body guy said the car had been hit bad on the right rear side and left front fender. He is doing an amazing job straightening everything out. I have a new found respect for anyone that can do this level of metal restoration. It's not a rotisserie restoration but will be very nice. The p.o. did have the body off and the frame was blasted and painted. It appears that's one thing he did right. I will do the touching up and cleaning of the frame as the car get closer to paint. Next pics will show the new metal getting installed.
Rick
Rick
January 23rd, 2016, 09:01 PM
#30
Sammy70 455 Supreme
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....well said
January 24th, 2016, 12:31 AM
#31
Rocket Renegade!
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Way to make lemonade out of lemons!
And thanks for the story of your setback and subsequent recovery and making your experience a cautionary tale for the rest of us. I, for one, appreciate knowing that I'm not the only guy who has used bad judgment in a car purchase.
And thanks for the story of your setback and subsequent recovery and making your experience a cautionary tale for the rest of us. I, for one, appreciate knowing that I'm not the only guy who has used bad judgment in a car purchase.
January 24th, 2016, 08:01 AM
#33
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Way to make lemonade out of lemons!
And thanks for the story of your setback and subsequent recovery and making your experience a cautionary tale for the rest of us. I, for one, appreciate knowing that I'm not the only guy who has used bad judgment in a car purchase.
And thanks for the story of your setback and subsequent recovery and making your experience a cautionary tale for the rest of us. I, for one, appreciate knowing that I'm not the only guy who has used bad judgment in a car purchase.
You've already been a big help. You were the first one to reach out to me on this forum and it has paid off. The interior work you did is so frick'in nice. The free manifold and fair prices on other parts is much appreciated. I will be getting with you in a few weeks to drop off the door panels if that's cool. Also need to talk to you about the sun visors. I can't remember what you told me we need to do with those.
I can't thank you enough for introducing me to John. He has saved me thousands of dollars getting the new motor put together and other mechanical issue worked out on the car. Not only have I gained a great mechanic and body man but also a friend. He is doing a fantastic job on the body and I know I'll have a bad *** ride when he's done with it.
Thanks
Rick
January 25th, 2016, 06:56 PM
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W-25 Hood
Got a text from my buddy at the body shop today. One of his other customers is selling me his OEM W-25 hood. I haven't worked out the deal yet but the price that was mentioned is a steal. He is an older gentleman that is having his W-31 restored at the same shop that's doing mine. He is the original owner of his W-31 and the extra hood was a replacement that the dealer put on after an accident. I had to go to the shop to check it out and take some pics. I'm really excited to see the hood on my car. It's in really good shape and won't take much to get it perfect. This will be my belated Christmas present to me!
Rick
Rick
January 26th, 2016, 06:00 PM
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Rick
January 26th, 2016, 06:02 PM
#39
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January 26th, 2016, 08:15 PM
#40
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Soft Ray Glass
Soft-Ray by LOF. Tinted backlight & vent, sorry vent pic is backwards. The other two are DCL Flo-lite & PPG Safety-plate of which neither are tinted. A lot of names, but if you see Soft-Ray its tinted. Hope that helps
Brett
Brett
