cutlassgal

Jamesbo... you make me laugh!!! I don't know what decals I have - if any - on any parts of the jack! It's under the spare tire, and I've never taken the spare tire out of the trunk!!

Jamesbo

The judge will.

Ain't that right Blue.

No jack hook decal deduct 50 points.

cutlassgal

Jamesbo? This isn't another 710 thingy- Allan R- maybe I'm having a blonde moment- joke is it??? I'm going to the Fusicks downloaded catalog now.....

Jamesbo

Sorry gang, I got distracted.

Sandy and I will take this up elsewhere.

My apologies

cutlassgal

I'm sure they won't mind!!! Not the first time we've gotten off course!

Well, I couldn't find any decals for the jack hook...

jack instructions, jack stowage,... no jack hook.... I think you're being such a Shi*!!!!!

rcorrigan5

------------------------
Wmachine is the researcher. I'm just a troublemaker! When it comes to the bottom line, I will always defer to Wmachine's expertise in this area! But, your window sticker sure does make for very interesting discussion. Too bad the original owner is no longer with us. 4speedBench, if you have any other original documentation, such as the build sheet, it would really be interesting to see, especially in comparing it with the window sticker.

Randy C.

Cameo White

Randy, Can you post a scan of your document showing the engineering change in the PIM? It would be interesting to read the comments on the bottom of the page detailing the engineering approval as they will detail some of the thought process that went on at the time.

As a related aside:

I have Parts and Accessories Catalog 310, (1966-1969 models, effective September 1968).

On page 218 (Section 5, group 5.803), it distinctly calls out the following in line 10 of the group:

1966-69 F85 V8 Drum brakes exc. S.W. 1st type Wheel (14" x 6") (Chrome-PO5 option) 393822

On line 19, it calls out the following:
1968 F85 2nd type Wheel (14" x 6") (super stock-PO5 option) 400422

Two part numbers. One option code. Hmm...

Could just be contradictory information in the P&A book. We've discussed it before regarding the SSIV wheels in another thread several of us contributed to a while back.

We may never know the truth. If there is such a thing.

wmachine

NO! This is *not* a contradiction! This is *exactly* what I said in my previous post! It clearly (?) says that P05 means a different wheel in 1968.
"1st type" is SSI, 2nd type is SSII.
I can email further illustrations of this to anybody that doesn't get this.
So in 1968, P05 = SSII.
Which means on 4spdb's window sticker the "P05 SUPERSTOCK 14" WHEELS" = SSIIs.

4speedBench

I do not have purchase agreement or build sheet (unless it is above gas tank)??. I have the window sticker, certicard, original manual and keys but no other docs from the original owner, unfortunately. BTW, to your earlier question the car does have drum brakes.

rcorrigan5

[quote=Cameo White;139796]Randy, Can you post a scan of your document showing the engineering change in the PIM? It would be interesting to read the comments on the bottom of the page detailing the engineering approval as they will detail some of the thought process that went on at the time.
-------------------------------------
Here is a scan of that page (10-124). Unfortunately for the '68 PIM, the copy quality is poor and reading any comments or signatures is next to impossible. The date is clear, though - November 1, 1967, and the stock numbers and display for mounting the center cap are definitely SSI.

I've also included the following page (10-125) in the '68 PIM. It shows how the center cap is mounted for the SSII. It is dated March 7, 1967, which is consistent with an anticipation for the new SSII wheel in '68.

In '68, there was no official advertising that talked about the SSI wheel and the SSII wheel. That didn't come until 1969. In '68, the wheel option was simply advertised as the "super stock wheel".

Both pages are labeled "35PO5 WHEEL ASSY".

One could speculate several scenarios out of these pages. I'm going to speculate further in saying that this was probably the beginning of the end for Oldsmobile! First, it was mis-represented wheel options. Then they started farming their engines out to Buick and Pontiac. Then they couldn't sell their cars. And then they died! If they had only gotten the wheel option straight in '68, Oldsmobile would probably still be around!

Randy C.

rcorrigan5

---------------------------
The build sheet would be another important piece of info, if you can find it. It wasn't anywhere in my '68 442, which is a Lansing car. I have a '69 442 and a '70 GTO, both built at the Fremont CA plant in May '69 and Oct '69 respectively. There was nothing in the 442 but the build sheet for the GTO was above the gas tank. I think it's kind of a hit-or-miss search. I hope yours is in your car somewhere!

Randy C.

wmachine

Okay, here is the document that should take the SSI (as shown on page 124 of the PIM 398162) right out of play. Page 124 shows the SSI as part number 393822. And that agrees with Cameo's post from the parts book.

Part number 400422 is the SSII wheel confirmed by all sources. Page 105 I just posted is last revised 3/1/68, many months *after* the page 124 SSI wheel.
There is only one "Styled Wheel" listed, and it is the P05, which is shown as part number 400422, which is SSII.

So, we are still left without a shred of evidence that SSIs were ever a factory option in 1668. I'll have to see evidence to believe anything else.


Note: The existence of drawing page 124 does not automatically mean that it made it into production. (There are 1967 model year drawings that show the Tri-Carb, too, as another example). What it does mean that they probably had tentative plans to bring it back, but I'm *guessing* the no-fit to disc brakes was part of the problem. It took Olds until April, 1969 to make SSIs that fit disc brakes.

Four Four Tony

Just to throw my 2 cents in about my car. My 69 442 has SS2's and I have the window sticker showing them as original equipt. My spare is what looks like the original redline on a SS2 with no center cap and no marks where the center cap bolts look to have ever been. It does have a trim ring on it and is painted body color so someone has messed with it in some fashion.
The jack base stows under the tire sidewall and if I wedge it in deep enough the hold down nut cinches down tightly with the lug wrench with about 4 threads showing. My trunk decal shows a SS1 rim in the picture and says "F85 specialty wheel". I swear my 67 442 (which did have SS1's) said the same thing. Does any of this help?

wmachine

Here's what we're looking for in regards to the hold-down stud length.

Cameo White

I disagree with the semantics. The P&A book as written clearly calls both part numbers (and both wheel styles) the PO5 option for 1968--that is an inherent contradiction of their usual business practice. That doesn't mean the SSI was actually available from the factory. Hell, it doesn't even mean that is what Oldsmobile intended to say with that particular bit of turgid prose. That is the meaning of the way those lines were constructed to read in that book, however.

Given the other evidence, more than likely, this bit was not edited out of an earlier edition of the P&A book, or line 10 was incorrectly edited and should have omitted 1968. The preponderance of evidence supports the PO5 being the SSII only in 1968. There are just enough other tantalizing clues out there to keep people looking for other "proof" about the SSI in 1968, if they want to. The truth is out there, if you believe.

Yellowstatue

Sorry; I forgot that's why the spare in my wife's car has that special nut (# 391888) that I also carry a wrench to tighten it up...and I think that there are two hold down bolts because the 442 has six inch wheels and the Cutlass five inch...

4speedBench

I'm amazed that in this apparent debate about the SS1 in '68 within the Olds community that there has not been any survivor car owners or retired employees weighing in on what they observed? Besides the inconsistent docs, there apparently remains enough debate in some circles to keep the mystery alive?? Myself, I tend to believe that some early production, manual brake cars made have slid through with leftover '67 rims prior to the correct SSlls being applied. Have no back up for this other than such gafs were relatively common in the era and more likely than dealer installs IMO.

wmachine

This is what Henry surmised earlier in the thread.
Some technicalities aside (like it being the tire width and wheel offset that counts, not the wheel width, and we're considering a couple years therby widths here), it does appear that longer bolt for the 442 was for the wider tire. It doesn't take into consideration that the wider tires (and wheels) were available on F85s, but all of this was certainly not an exact science, and I think it was probably good "enough" for a relatively insignificant part.

wmachine

But what we are left with is no evidence that SSIs ever came on '68s.
So just like any other "against the grain" claim, until someone ponies up, I cannot believe there are exceptions.
Granted, a difficult thing to do given the flip-flop that Olds did with the P05 option.
It is not really that "amazing" to me, because due to its obscure nature, most of the Olds community doesn't even know there is a debate.
It has only now become important to nuts like me. "Back then", if you wanted SSIs, on a '68, you got 'em. Who cared whether the dealer or the factory installed them? "It came that way" is the result of either method.

4speedBench

It is not really that "amazing" to me, because due to its obscure nature, most of the Olds community doesn't even know there is a debate.
It has only now become important to nuts like me. "Back then", if you wanted SSIs, on a '68, you got 'em. Who cared whether the dealer or the factory installed them? "It came that way" is the result of either method.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Part of what makes this hobby so much more interesting than collecting coins or stamps. Way more "human factor" involved, thus the chance for weird stuff.

Anyway, I think we have solved my proper spare question, so thanks to all!

69ho aurora

Jumping in late here. I had a loaded 68 442 convert I bought in 1979 from the original owner (a nurse) who bought it off the lot. It had 5 SSIs on it and I still have the window sticker with P05 on it. It was originally titled in 11/68, but it was a fairly early car (M308826). I'm guessing it sat on the lot for a while (in Wisconsin) because the sticker was over $5k. She never had anything messed with on the car before I bought it.

Section 10, pages 124 and 125 of my build book clearly show the SSI as "1st type" (right above the page number 124) and "2nd type" in the same spot on page 125. I personally copied my build book from a borrowed original set in 1982. Page 10-105 also shows changes in pn and code on 1-15-68 and 3-1-68 from 400904 to 400422 and LH to LS for the P05 option.

The SSI was also shown on numerous magazine test cars for both Cutlass and 442 for 68 as well as other ones showing SSIIs and a few with various wheel covers. From my early car days (and I was initially a 68 guy) there were a lot more 68s with SSIs than SSIIs that I remember. These were mostly cars that had not yet been messed with.

I've never heard anyone previously claim SSI rims were not available on 68s (except for the disc brake fit issue) before. I can try and drop a note on another board to a guy that was in engineering in Lansing at the time (he walked his own 68 ram-rod down the line that he still has) and see if he can shed some light on this...

wmachine

Which does not confirm SSI, it indicates SSII.

Those pages are posted earlier in the thread and have been discussed. That change is also shown on page 105 that I posted. However the SSI wheel is 393822.

Please do. If there is proof out there, let's get it!

69ho aurora

Here's what I got from him in 2 messages. He has always provided a lot of interesting details when folks have bounced questions off him in the past:
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That was a very hot topic at Olds when I started there in 1/68 full time. Lots of the employees were very pissed when the cars they had ordered came through with the newer SSII style wheel and you couldn't get the SSI all chrome wheel any more. They started off the model year with the P05 option being the all chrome SSI style and called it 1st type. When they switched to the SSII painted wheel, they just treated it as a replacement and called it 2nd type. Later they quietly fixed it by assigning N66 option to the SSII wheel.

Assembly manual is very confusing as the change box for the 2nd type shows cancellation of the SSII wheel on the B cars (page 10-24)...not sure how that worked as the B cars had a larger bolt pattern from the A cars...

The N66 wheels were very dull in 1968. Trim rings were a brushed look, and there were painted lips around the 5 holes. Wheels themselves came from Motor Wheel in black, and we painted them the dull charcoal grey and painted the lip on the 5 openings argent silver. Only thing shiny was the center ornament. Even the lugnuts were those cap type that everyone hated also.

For 69, they got the message and also offered the SSI style as P05 addition to the SSII style N66 wheel. They brightened up the N66 wheels with a shiny trim ring and the stainless escutcheons around the 5 openings.

Not 100% positive about this, but I think the SSI P05 chrome wheel was purchased from a different source than the N66 which was Motor Wheel Corporation. They had a big plant in the North side of Lansing, and supplied all our other wheels. MW also was a huge supplier to GM for other divisions. That came into play again in the 1971 model year when the big strike hit. More on that below...

I think it may also be related to clearance for disc brakes. Seems to me there was a variation of the SSI wheel that would work with disc brakes, but the N66 (6 inch wheel) would not...I never totally understood that. Seems to me you could get disc brakes and styled wheels together except when you had manual brakes...(W30 and W31)...not sure how that worked.

It's entirely possible that dealers changed wheels from the dull SSII's to the brighter SSI style. So some people may have had their car delivered with the SSI's they wanted, but it left the factory with something else. My guess would be the standard plain steel wheels with dog dishes...
(cheaper)...

As a sidelight, no W31 Ramrods were built in the 500 car group with SSI style wheels. The first 50 were built in January, 1968, and the balance (450) were built in late Feb to Early April. We did not have any SSI wheels in the plant then. Possibly some of the early preproduction and prototype cars were actually built with the chrome SSI's, but before my time.

On a related, in 1971, we started off the year with 14 x 7 P05 wheels that took trim rings. We only ran for a month when the big strike hit. Motor Wheel was also on strike then and settled after GM did. We couldn't get any P05 styled wheels from Motor Wheel, as Chevelles used the same wheel and they couldn't build enough for all....so Mother General dictated that all of those wheels go to Chevy. Olds then went back to the original supplier of the SSI and got an all chrome wheel, 14 x 7. They finished out the 1971 model year with that. In 1972 they went back to Motor Wheel as a supplier for the wheels.

Confusing to say the least...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was told they started off the year with SS1's as the P05 option. I wasn't there yet, so it was word of mouth, but it was from other engineers I worked with who had the switcheroo done to them.

I ordered my Ramrod in March, 1968, and at that time it was already called N66. P05 was not available.

Most magazine cars were from engineering test cars and may or may not reflect production level....especially in performance. Lots of those were early built cars, maybe even prototypes or pre production.

What's really interesting to me is the current fad of plain steel wheels and dog dishes. Other than a few el strippo cars, we never saw many being built with that and nobody other than a cop car, or a grandpa would be seen dead with them on their car (unless on their way to the tire store to get a set of chrome reverse, Cragars, or some other fancy wheels). I think the current dog dish fad started on other makes and gravitated over to Oldsmobile only in recent years. It was anything but a "sleeper " look for the street racers.

4speedBench

Aurora,

Great stuff. Seems to me if he was able to find someone prior to 1/68 who could speak to the line efforts it may pin down when a switch may have happened. Sounds as if '68 cars that rolled out in late '67 may have had the SS1's...this would fit with my car as well. Really interesting about how he described the grayish SSlls - wonder if anyone has any of those??

That was a very hot topic at Olds when I started there in 1/68 full time. Lots of the employees were very pissed when the cars they had ordered came through with the newer SSII style wheel and you couldn't get the SSI all chrome wheel any more. They started off the model year with the P05 option being the all chrome SSI style and called it 1st type. When they switched to the SSII painted wheel, they just treated it as a replacement and called it 2nd type. Later they quietly fixed it by assigning N66 option to the SSII wheel.


I was told they started off the year with SS1's as the P05 option. I wasn't there yet, so it was word of mouth, but it was from other engineers I worked with who had the switcheroo done to them.

wmachine

I believe I've read that basic account before. But I have to say that it doesn't really make sense that the early '68 PO5 were SSI. All of the sales literature and ordering info said PO5 was SSII right from the beginning of the year. It is conceivable that there was a problem with getting SSIIs for initial production, but there are almost always bulletins covering such an event, and it is reflected in the PIM. I have not heard of any such bulletins. I'll say again, this is going to be a tough one to prove.

rcorrigan5

Although all the sales literature indicated that the "2nd type" was right from the beginning of the production year, I could foresee a situation where (1) there were production and non-availability problems with the "2nd type" and (2) the factory still had access to the "1st type". The sales people would have had to just explain it to anyone wanting the SS wheel early in the production year - that the wheel they were getting would be the 1st type and not the 2nd type. That would explain the re-appearance of the SSI on page 10-124 in early November 1967, as well as the early production '68 cars described previously that apparently came with SSI wheels. And, as was indicated in January 1968 when the "new" PO5 option finally became available, there was an uproar because there were people who wanted the previous version of the PO5. That would have lead to dealerships putting on the SSIs, up to the point that both the PO5 (1st type) and the N66 (2nd type) both became options for the '69 model year.

One thing I've noticed, and I recall wmachine noticing it as well - I've never seen an SSI wheel with a date on it that would be consistent with the '68 model year. The early '68 A-body cars would have wheels with a '67 date and SSI wheels with a post-July 1968 date on them would be for the '69 models.

Many thanks to all of you who are involved in this discussion. It's interesting how this thread morphed from the "proper trunk look" to SSI and SSII wheels but I'm glad it happened. It sure provides interesting insight and better understanding (for me, anyway!) of the continuing saga of the SSI wheel.

Randy C.

wmachine

I see that as trying to make the evidence match the "story", but the evidence (and lack of it) itself does *not* support it.
It is not a matter of the sales people explaining it, or having access to previous years parts. That is what sales and service bulletins are for. And there don't seem to be any.
Why would there be an uproar in January if they started getting what they were supposed to get to begin with?
Besides, if that really happened, what about all the customers expecting SSIIs?
I'm sorry, but it does not explain the appearance of page 10-124 to me, because where it really matters is on page 10-105 where the *applications* are identified, and the SSI does not show up there. What page 10-124 does mean is that they had plans, but there is nowhere that page/wheel is incorporated usage which is what page 10-105 shows.
I'm only going where the evidence leads me.

Thanks to all indeed! I know this can get frustrating and all, but it is a challenge and it helps to get all input possible. It still surprises me how many details are not known.

4speedBench

Agree, this discussion on the SS1s has been quite interesting for me too. I tried to edit the title of the thread so that it would be searchable later (add something about SS1s) but it would not let me...oh well.

So relative to the markings I found, do they signify anything?? Just curious.

[
BTW, I looked at the spare for dates/markings. Only thing I could find was a "6" or "9" stamp and another stamped circle with what looks like a "7" in it?? Both markings are on the lug area (backside obviously).[/quote]

wmachine

[/QUOTE]

Not sure about those markings, but what Randy was asking about is date stamps and wheel stamps that (on later wheels) are located on the inboard side and in the very outer part of the rim. Could be covered by a standard wheel weight.

BTW, if I haven't told you before: "Post Coupes Rule!".

wmachine

I posted the following for traceability, and so others may find it.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...tml#post140737

hurst68olds

I found this bulletin in the research library ar wildaboutcars.com

allyolds68

I'm going to add to what 69ho aurora got from daveh.

This came from a thread on V8 Buick some years ago when daveh was correcting a lot of info about 68 ramrods. Dave specifically talked about the wheel options for the Ramrods. A lot of what he's saying below has been already been stated above.

Cameo White

Another Oldsmobile Bulletin from the "wildaboutcars" site to add to the neverending story...

NC-68-4. Sorry, it was too big a file for me to upload right now. Maybe somebody else can post it.

sb-stroker

The picture that Jamesbo posted of the trunk/spare area and the jack handle mounting clips show the clips to be mounted on the horizontal portion of the trunk floor just before it drops to the bottom where the spare tire mounts, would that be correct for a 1972 CS also? The assembly manual and service manual and trunk decal all leave something to be desired as to location. How about a side picture showing those clips? Also is the trunkmat cut out around those clips or are the screws installed through the mat?