TK-65

Really? I sincerely hope you get your money back on it. Its probably going to take some legal action for that to occur.

ent72olds

After reading through all the muck, I believe the next step would be what Jasen said, peel back the carpet and check the hole in the trans tunnel. Also, I would start to make a list of positives and negatives, with any pics, to back up evidence. Is it possible the guy you bought it from is innocent? Yes, but you never know anymore.....could be a reason he never titled the car. Does he know who he bought it from? If you happen to be in NY, be careful, as auto crimes will knock on your door and take the car with no regard for you. Try and get your money back first. If not, try and recoup what you can. Good luck!

Astrolink

I have a copy of the title before I transferred it.

I'm in contact with the seller now and have accumulated the info I need for legal action if he decides not to pay. I'm not going to check the car further. VIN says 2 door sedan, car is a hardtop. Car will never pass as to what it was represented as to a collector. It's a slow legal process if things go that way, but I'm confident I'll prevail with the evidence I've put together.

RAMBOW

I would call your states state patrol and ask where they have an inspection station- and have it inspected by them. Period.
They will compare the hidden vin #'s on the body and frame to the plate- and be able to find out if anything is stolen or not.

If there is any real issue- then you'll have some real ground to go after the seller (and the car won't simply go back up for sale again to another unsuspecting person)

And... if there isn't anything illegal, they may just issue you a new state issue vin number & plate (happens all the time) and away you go. Some reduced overall value when that happens, but on a 45+ year old vehicle, not uncommon.

oldstata

So this twist is weird now he gave you title that matches the vin in the car that's wrong and now he claims he has the other vin tag and title ? If this is the case I think he or some one was making a 442 and trying to sell it this way why would he chop up two cars to make one worthless one ?

X2 if he had two titles and two vin plates the authority's need to be notified at this point to cross reference all vins to get correct one where they need to go but at this point I think finding out if its a 442 will be lost with out a build sheet or a protecto plate book

Astrolink

I'm not going to deal with it. I've demanded a refund or legal action will follow.

Boiler_81

Very wise move

TK-65

Only VINs on a 65 are on the frame and the VIN plate on the door jamb. No hidden VINs were used on the body shell.

HonestDave

This whole thing is really depressing me. I just sold my last extra toy taking up space, and am now ready to get back to work on my avatar rocket. Think I need another coffee.

stan 65 cutlass

how come dave? your vin matches up doesnt it?

HonestDave

Hi Stan. I feel bad for Astrolink. We spend a lot of money and time playing with these cars. My vin matches my registration. Everything says Fremont built Cutlass Holliday Coupe. Reg says 442 Foreign Import (USA), frame is one-piece with 4 holes, etc. Paint code is CC and paint in the trunk is white, but still a kick in the nuts when stuff like this happens. We're always hoping to enjoy our treasures, and I hate to see this discouraging saga ongoing.
Surely it can't be that hard for someone to at least stay within normal boundaries. A one-piece frame even by itself is a great thing. Keep the right body with the right registration. I don't know what precipitated this whole tragedy, but somebody had a couple of interesting cars and some really special parts, it sounds like.
Astrolink still has some very cool stuff. I'll keep my fingers crossed for luck. Seems like this whole adventure could go off in any direction at any given time.

HonestDave

I saw an article on the internet some years ago about a guy who took a 62 88 4 door and cut the *** end off. He welded on a convertible rear, changed the doors and made it into a 62 Starfire (I think) convert. Looked pretty good in the pictures.
Is there any way at all that a previous owner could have taken a 2 door post 442 and modified it into a hardtop? I know it would mean changing the motor and it's mounting brackets. I suppose a guy would have to be really bored, but could it be done? I know, I'm really pushing the envelope here.
Over the years I've had some weird stuff. A few years ago I had a 65 Starfire that someone had stuffed a 2 barrel 330 into. Still had the correct geared non-posi diff. Who would think of that?
Guess I'd better go back to my coffee !!

oldstata

Hey Dave, I thought the same thing ,maybe he reshelled it from rust or was hit ,but the bottom line here is that it was sold off as something it wasn't .sure it might not be stolen. The issue at hand is it will never be a 442 a clone at best

HonestDave

Hi Justin,
Couldn't it have started life as a 2 door sedan f-85 version 442? It could still be a ligitimate 442, just modified into a 2 door hardtop. Oh yeah, and the engine changed.
I could see it happening. I've almost done it myself, but not quite.
My fingers slipped on this keyboard and now I've got slanted letters....bummer.

oldstata

Not denying this statement at all ,but how would you go about and prove it ? I mean right now on mine I have scoops ,A heads if it was born a 4speed it would even have the frame but is it a 442 ?

HonestDave

If it had the 4V on it's tag, maybe you wouldn't have to prove it. In the eyes of the law, they would have to prove it wasn't a 442. It all depends who you're proving it to.
Much lower burden of proof if you're just trying to convince a puchaser. How will I ever convince anybody that my Fremont car is a 442? Completely different engine, tranny and diff (unless you could order them with 12 bolt type "C"). Most people still seem to believe without the 4V on the cowl tag, it's not ligit.
I think if you have a nice car that people like, and it looks like a 442, they'll convince themselves. Beautiful cars can sometimes sell themselves !!

oldstata

x2

HonestDave

Hey Astrolink,
What's the latest on the 442 situation? Enquiring minds need to know !!

ent72olds

He's got it for sale on eBay....

HonestDave

Hmmmm....think I'll take a look. I really like these old Cutlass type vehicles.

Killian_Mörder

A little off-topic. But, since the image is already there, what do they mean by "chambered dual exhaust" for the Starfire as opposed to just dual exhaust for the Jetstar 1? Or is this a missprint? Since the horsepower ratings for both are claimed to be identicle, can i assume that "chambered" applies only to a tuned sound?

joe_padavano

Actually, a lot...

The Starfires used chambered pipes. The regular dual exhaust cars just had plain tubing.

HonestDave

Took a look at the plate of the car on e-Bay right now. If it's the same car, I agree that the tag looks suspect. Mine has two lower rivets and no upper rivets, but they are much tidier than this one.
I'm also a little leary of selling anything on e-Bay that is even slightly suspect, as they are very quick to freeze PayPal accounts and scoop money back if they suspect any trouble. Just a 'heads up', so to speak.

TK-65

Same car.

Nothing said about the VIN discrepancy.

rjohnson442

Someone put a 4k bid on it already too! States he has no idea if its a 442 or not in the add with no pictures of the trunk.... I hate people that push their problems onto someone else when they know damn well they are screwing the next person over.

hurst68olds

I agree - the problem isn't weather or not it's a 442.

VIN# is a 2 door sedan & car is a 2 door hardtop.

oldstata

Agreed! I believe that the authority's should be involved so a new vin can be issued . at this point passing the buck could come back to bite you in the butt

67townsedan

That does suck to see it being passed on to someone else. What would be the chances of someone titling it and insuring it that they would ever have someone question the legality of it? As long as the VIN on the title is good and it matches the cowl tag even if it had been replaced would it ever be questioned beyond that? Just thinking if the next person buys it and never questions it he will never know it. And then in a couple years it might be up for sale again.

On a side note, I was in the Corvette museum in Franklin, KY and there is a 60's corvette that was stolen a couple years after it was bought new and then a couple years ago it was recovered fully restored better than it was when new. Apparently it had crossed several collector's hands and it never came up as stolen. The owner apparently had to think hard about what stolen car had been recovered when the police called him.

oldstata

This is what could happen if it isn't corrected now. some one could dump 50k build it up and find out that its a stolen body and would have to loose all that cash and time.

And on the other hand it could be a legit body swap that wasn't thought threw but any buy should be advised on it

TK-65

The VIN still has W listed in the auction.

HonestDave

What is "W"

hurst68olds

Often confused & listed as a "W" - It's a "M" in the VIN #

Keener

Agree with Hurst68olds, the W is probably supposed to be an M which would designate built in Lansing, and it is clearly present from the vin the owner pictured on eBay. Either way, this car is a holiday coupe but the data plate states sports coupe and the Vin also states sports coupe. The data plate has been altered. It has an extra rivet in the middle portion, along the bottom, which is not normal. On occasion there was an extra hole in the upper left. Not sure why. The A-frame weld and upper control arm frame holes came on both the 442 (4spd and autos) and non-442 4-speed cars, as stated in posts above. The Vin tag rivets appear weathered as does the data plate, which leads me to believe maybe the previous owner did not even know there was an issue. It would be nice to know if there is a large hole for the four speed shifter. The data plate shows this car should have had a four speed. If no gaping hole, then red flags should fly, if the body itself hasn't already done that for the owner or any buyer. Like others have said, the body may have been swapped back in the day, but a paper trail should have followed and why not replace it with the same still body? At least that would have drawn less suspicion. It upsets me to see this car listed on ebay and there is nothing we can do. At least on CL we can flag it so an unsuspecting buyer is not taken to the cleaners. A couple years back I was in Minnesota pulling parts at a salvage yard. The car was a 65 442 post, I cannot recall if it was a club coupe (3427) or a sports coupe (3827). This car is listed in Duluth Minnesota and there is only one large salvage yard in Minnesota with cars dating back to the 30's. Hundreds of acres. Could someone have taken the Vin tag and data plate? It's possible. But then again, I'm only speculating and I believe that car had an "H" accessory code which this one does not. Anyway, it's fun trying to solve mysteries.

MDchanic

I agree, that's really kind of dirty - trying to find someone who is as dumb as you were a few weeks before... and anyone who would buy a collector car with a cowl tag that looks like that ain't too bright.



- Eric

Hawk1061

Dirty, for sure.

Is it illegal? Particularly knowing there is something amiss? Maybe prior to this thread he could claim ignorance (not that it would necessarily help) but doesn't knowingly selling this car make it a crime?

MDchanic

There are sins of commission and sins of omission.

I doubt this would be considered illegal, because he did post pictures of the cowl tag, the VIN plate, and the side of the car, showing the windows, and it could be argued that an informed buyer would check the VIN.
He didn't withhold anything, but he didn't put it out there honestly either.

If this were a real estate transaction, it would be different, but it isn't.

- Eric

oldstata

I am curious of the frame vin ?

HonestDave

Certainly a valid curiosity. Also curious about what the car goes for on e-Bay. If I ever get back to it, maybe I'll put a watch on it. Love to know what happened to the original body as well.

1969w3155

Report it to ebay, they will pull the ad.