Astrolink

I bought a 1965 442 recently and I'm questioning its authenticity. The cowl tag says 65-33827 with 4V which designates a 442.

But, the VIN on the door pillar says 338275Wxxxxxx. The car is a 2 door hardtop rather than post, but the using a VIN decoder, it says a 338275 is a 2 door F85 post. From what I understand, a 2 door hardtop would have to be a Cutlass or 442, and not a F85.

Looking at cowl tag, it looks like it might have been replaced.

The engine is 400 345hp with 881917 in the front of the block. Has the proper 442 emblems on dash and quarter panels, but was missing the ones in the front and back. I bought reproduction pieces, and found the rear piece has 2 holes, but this car has 3 holes for mounting it.....like perhaps a longer, larger Cutlass emblem would have.

I paid a fair amount of money for the car as it was presented as a 442.

Any insight?

Update: another poster pointed out the engine is a 330. I misread the 881917 as it's actually 381917, which does make it a 330.

jaunty75

According to the 1965 Olds "Sports Models" sales brochure, the 442 was an option package on the Cutlass/F-85, and it was available on any F-85, Cutlass or not, that was a coupe or a convertible, with a V-8 engine. The F-85 Cutlass was available as both a 2-door post ("Sports Coupe") and 2-door hardtop ("Holiday Coupe"), so either could have been ordered as a 442, and the fact that your car is a hardtop is not a problem.

Because the 442 was not its own series, the fact that the car was a 442 would not be encoded in the VIN. It wasn't until 1968 and running through 1971 that the 442 was its own series and had its own separate code in the VIN.

The engine you have is correct.

From what I have heard people say over the years, proving that a non-'68 through '71 442 really is a 442 is a matter of making sure the correct options are present, such as the correct rear axle ratio, and having back-up paperwork, maybe even a build sheet. But apparently they can be faked. I'm sure others will know much more about this and will chime in.

As far as your rear 442 emblem mounting point having three holes, I can think of three possibilities:

1. The car really is a fake, and there should not be a 442 emblem there.
2. The trunk lid was replaced for some reason, and one from a non-442 was used.
3. For cost-savings and ease-of-manufacture reasons, Olds punched three holes in all its F-85 trunk lids, but only used two of them and filled in the third one if the car was to be built as a 442.

2blu442

A few more clues that can help, the 1965 442 and all Cutlass/F85 manual transmission cars got a different frame.


There's an extra support welded to the back of the cross member under the engine.
P2120103.jpg


The side frame rails are one piece in front of and going over the rear axle. Others have the side frame rails spliced in the is location. You can see this right in front of the rear tires.
P2120135.jpg



The upper rear control arms have four holes where the control arm can bolt to the frame.P2120107.jpg


And there should be a number stamped into the outside frame rail just behind the drivers side rear tire. The code should look like this.
P2120117.jpg

Another resource to get information like this is a web site call 442Bro.com
In fact the pictures posted there may be more clear than the ones I put here. John

Astrolink

Thanks for the Info. I had to drill new holes for the trunk emblem; it wouldn't line up with the holes present. I agree it doesn't mean the trunk wasn't replaced at some point. My only other concern really is the cowl plate. I tried to add a picture here but it was too big. It has one new rivet, another that looks like it was added a decade or 2 ago, an original that is missing and an original that has just the head pushed in the hole.

Otherwise the car seems like a 442. Correct engine, Jetaway trans with console and buckets, and 3.08 posi, which was standard with the automatic.

The car has heavy undercoating on it so it would take some time to look at the frame number, but I just took a look and it has the extra support by the A-frames.

jaunty75

Hold on a minute here.

According to that brochure above, the console was available on "Cutlass models and V-6 Sports Coupes," so apparently your car having a console is no proof that it's a 442.

That rear axle ratio seems puzzling. First, according to the brochure, an "anti-spin" differential (Oldsmobile's term for positraction, which itself is a Chevy term) was available on any Cutlass, so the fact that your car has one also doesn't mean it's a 442.

But according to the brochure, the standard axle ratio is 3.23 with a 3.55 available on the 442. There's no mention of 3.08. Shouldn't yours have a 3.55? Or am I missing something?


It seems that the features that 2blu442 points out would be much more definitive if you can get under the car and look for them.

jaunty75

Here's more info from the 1965 Olds 442 sales folder. This is from wildaboutcars.com, by the way. You might consider joining that if you haven't already. It's free, and service manuals are there as well.

There is no mention of a 3.08 axle ratio that I can see.

Astrolink

My mistake. It has 3.23's.

I looked at 442bro.com and found where the rear control arms on a 442 have 4 possible upper mounting holes, but just one on all the F85 and Cutlass.

Much to my relief, my car has 4 holes.

jaunty75

Cool. Congrats on the purchase. Now we need to see photos of this beast!

TK-65

Disregard everything Jaunty said especially this comment...

The F-85 Cutlass was available as both a 2-door post ("Sports Coupe") and 2-door hardtop ("Holiday Coupe"), so either could have been ordered as a 442, and the fact that your car is a hardtop is not a problem.

If this car is a hardtop like the original poster says, and the VIN and cowl tag are from a post car, you have a shitload of problems. A hardtop VIN and cowl tag will have 3837 in that order. A Cutlass sports coupe will have 3827, in that order. According to the first post, this is the case. I would take this car back to whoever sold it and seek a return. Its a complete fraud. Your "car" is registered as a post sedan and has a title from that car, which probably doesnt exist anymore.

Who cares if its a real 442, has 4V on the tag, has the frame with 4 holes, etc. It didnt come that way. And thats if and only if this car is a pillarless hardtop.

And for the record there isnt a 442 emblem on the trunk lid of a 65. Its attached to the rear chrome piece between the tail lights.

Lastly the W in the VIN makes no sense. These cars were built in Fremont (Z) and Lansing (M). No W code plants built 65 442s. Pictures of the car, the VIN and the cowl tag would solve this.

joe_padavano

The lower RH rivet on the cowl tag is definitely NOT factory. Can't tell on the other ones.

Astrolink

I would say the cowl tag has been removed and put back on, or another put in its place.

There's no doubt somebody has messed with that.

Looking at pictures of other cowl tags, all I've seen had just 2 lower rivets. This one has 2 lower in the proper place, had one in the upper left, and has one "out in space" on the lower right.

hurst68olds

400 miles may be a small expense vs. having to deal with a messed up car in the future.

if I'm reading this correctly:
VIN tag & cowl tag are from a "ocean mist" (aqua) w/white interior 400 4-spd 442 post coupe.

TK-65

Youve got major problems. The car is a hardtop and the VIN and cowl tag are from a two door post car. Picture shows a 330. I just reread the original post, where he said the engine was the 400, so thats wrong too.

You have an automatic 65 Cutlass two door hardtop with the vin/cowl tag from a 4 speed 65 442 sports coupe.

Bottom line you have a car with the wrong VIN tag. Probably the worst thing you can have wrong with a car. And highly illegal.

Astrolink

I've looked at several things that make it a 442; the extra material by the A-frames, the control arm holes, the control arm construction itself. I'm quite sure if I scrape the frame I'll come up with the right numbers.

However, is it improperly titled? The pillar VIN rivets look original. I suspect the cowl tag is not from this car. I don't know why someone would change this; the car isn't that nice. Perhaps it had been removed for whatever reason and lost. Who knows? The car is a project that isn't nice enough to start changing VIN's to sell for a huge profit.

As for going after the seller, unless you get some kind of written guarantee, I suspect that caveat emptor would prevail. Plus, they owned it for 4 years, but never transferred the title....they never even legally owned it.

The bigger mystery to me is not the cowl plate but the pillar. How can a tag and rivets that look 100% original show the car is not a hardtop?

TK-65

Bottom line, again, the car has THE WRONG VIN PLATE. Nothing else matters. The frame, the engine (which is wrong or is it correct since the car is a Cutlass?), and the emblems dont matter. This car has had its original VIN removed and another attached to it. In other words a felony has been committed.

hurst68olds

Would you have purchased it without a VIN tag or title?

Unless you go back to the seller it's a parts car with NO title.

Astrolink

I'm certainly going to give it a try, but I suspect I have a big paperweight in my yard.

TK-65

Im not a lawyer but Im pretty certain that its illegal for you to even possess it.

2blu442

If you strike out getting your money back the next step might be to check if the car has been stolen. Not sure about the vin on the title, but there is a vin stamped into the frame. This pictures is of a 1971 but it should look something like this and be located in the frame rail, I think under the drivers door is the most common location. Once that's cleared, if many of the 442 parts are good you might find a correct 1965 442 project car to swap them over onto.


P1010056.jpg

hurst68olds

It's a Cutlass with a 330 - the only 442 parts are title & tags and a few emblems/scoops.

2blu442

I thought the OP said it had the 442 frame, which if solid that's an important piece.

Astrolink

I bought the car on August 4th and sent the seller an Email....I'll see what happens from here. Is it possible the factory put the wrong pillar tag on it? I've taken a high resolution picture and blown it up and I'm sure it's what originally came on this car. The rivets are original and it's been taped off for a couple repaints. The car is now titled and registered using that number.

TK-65

Do you think something like that would get passed final inspection? And does that cowl tag look like it came on that car? Nothing about this points in the direction of wrong VIN attached at factory.

TK-65

post the vin pic.

joe_padavano

Unfortunately, that's not a full VIN on the frame, just a VIN derivative. The important characters NOT in the VIN derivative are the second through fifth characters of the VIN, which tell you the model line and body style. Of course, if the frame VIN derivative sequence number doesn't match the VIN tag, all that could mean is that the frame has been replaced. People here DO replace frames all the time.

oldstata

It could be possible that some one swapped the body due to rust and as I have seen major body parts replaced with used ones with this said there is usually a paper trail but I am not qualified to know what would be aceptibile in this case

2blu442

Yes they do. But here in Oregon if it looks like the vin has been tampered with on a vehicle of this age they go for the frame number next. That may not be true in all states, but it is here.

Astrolink

I'm going to check into the frame number, but I've got a "call in" to a lawyer friend.

I did check into the VIN and Cowl plates, and it's perfectly legal to replace the cowl....but 100% Illegal to to remove or change the VIN, which of course, is the way it should be. As I've stated before, the VIN looks 100% legit....I can even see paint on it from the 2 previous repaints this car has had....with oldest one at least 30 years ago.

Astrolink

This actually makes sense. The car has been in the rust belt all its life. However, it doesn't explain how the car is a 2 door hardtop rather than 2 door sedan.

oldstata

And even tho the vin plate may have not been tampered with they could of cut out the whole section and welded it in cleaned it up paint and a good job no one would ever tell unless it was taken back to bare metal to revile its secrets

jaunty75

Hey pal, eat ****.

This is exactly what it says in that '65 Performance Data brochure up above. Otherwise, what does "442 optional at extra cost on any F-85 V-8 coupe or convertible" mean?

TK-65

You disregarded the part where he said the car was a hardtop and had a sedan VIN. Not a problem to you? Told him his engine was correct (its not) and a bunch of stuff about trunk lids that had nothing to do with anything.

If no one else posted in this thread the guy would be fixing up a car thats illegal to own.

Astrolink

I guess there are endless possibilities. Could have been T-boned 40 years ago and the body shop used junkyard parts, including a pillar with the VIN to repair it.

I'll keep my story updated.

It really doesn't make much sense.....I've pretty much authenticated the car is a 442.....I don't know many folks that would screw with their VIN to another model to make it worth less or perhaps worthless.

oldstata

Went back to look at the engine pic but looks like it was deleted . You should have a B block and A heads with a vxxxx on drivers side if its never been pulled and installed wrong
118A46B8-E813-4CA6-9C86-43913AD8BF49-951-000063ABD2A4A2DE.jpg

TK-65

You haven't authenticated anything. The only thing that says 442 is the frame, something used under every stick shift 65 A body. For all you know the car could have been a stick shift Cutlass hardtop when new.

The Cutlass is worth less than a 442. Thus whoever did the swap did it to make the car worth more. You bought it right? Would you have bought it if it was the Cutlass it used to be? Paid the same price for it?

Get up under the car, or pull back the carpet and look for a big hole in the trans tunnel, on the drivers side. Thats where the manual shifter came thru. A floor shift auto car will have a round hole on top of the tunnel. Youll find out pretty quick whether or not it was stick shift body shell.

jaunty75

1. My statement above still stands. The fact that his VIN says something different from what the car actually is was not something I was trying to address.

2. He SAID he had a 400, which is correct for a 442, is it not? The fact that the engine turned out to be a 330 was not something that was known at the time I made that post. He had not yet posted a photo of it, and I don't know enough about casting numbers to know what "881917" means. I was going by what he said he had.

3. I was only speculating about the attachment points of the emblems, and I made that clear. So sue the hell out of me, ok?

TK-65

Pics are gone. His first post says the engine block number is 881917, which is really 381917. Which is a 330 block. Picture he posted was a 330.

TK-65

Bottom line is the guy has a fraudulent car, never checked out anything before he bought it and might be trying to justify this whole thing by claiming the VIN has always been that way.

Pics are now gone and he says he authenticated it.

Astrolink

Honestly, I'm not that concerned if it's Cutlass or 442. I just don't want to have a car that can't be sold or is illegal. I need to take care of that aspect before I do anything else. I pulled the pictures as it appeared to me you were going to call the police hotline within the hour, have them look up the VIN and haul the car way before the end of the day. I think you are a very aggitated guy...and in the profession I work in, I would know.

oldstata

X2 this situation is really not a good one and I hope that what ever you find that it's in your favor. like I said it could of been reshelled and not ment to be a fraud witch in this case would be the best outcome ,but if in fact frame vin doesn't match body and title they will look up any vin they can find and if any come back stolen then it gets ugly real quick .
My uncle restored a 57 Chevy and watched the sherif release it to the owner on the spot out a ton of time and money all because he never titled it in his name tell he was done